Batman Begins Now it's my turn: Doc's problems with Begins...

[Agentsands77]

Here for example. You say you hated B89 character merging and when same thing happens in BB it's ok. So one's left here scratching the head forever.

Some roles are better merged than others. It's not like all role merging is equal, after all.

And what is blurry on the B89 narrative?

Well, the B89 narrative was fairly clear, even if I did have major issues with the Joker's grand plan (how and why is he able to just march through the Gotham streets without any police resistance? I know Gotham is pretty far gone, but still...). I didn't mean by saying BEGINS had a clear narrative that B89 did not.

The film of the pictures that Vicki took of Batman, as it's explained more than clearly in the next scene (Vicki at her apartment touching her boob and noticing the film's missing.)

Fair enough. I'll back off my severe misreading of a scene. Glad to see it wasn't what I thought, but at the same time, I can't help but think the scene is somewhat vague about what happens at that moment.

I apologize.

The thing is that the suppossedly 'comic booky feel' is not a flaw. It's like saying 'I don't like the blue color so if the movie had blue in it I post it as a flaw.'

Well, sure it's a flaw. A flaw is whatever doesn't work for the viewer, one way or another. Why do you think one actor's performance works for someone and it doesn't for another? Or that one visual style will be too garish and busy for one viewer, and that the other will think it's magical? It's all highly subjective, but so is any abstract value judgement.

Not exactly. If there's a plothole that's not explained at all, that's a flaw.

Fair enough, though the extent to which that plothole bothers the viewer can vary widely.

If there's something particular you didn't like then it's just something you didn't like. I prefer the Burton's style but I still can enjoy Nolan's visuals and won't list it as a flaw just because I didn't like it as much as other one.

Plenty of people bother to list Nolan's visual style as a "flaw" of BATMAN BEGINS. Film critics list flaws just like that all the time. It qualifies as a flaw, but flaws are mostly a matter of perspective.

I was never bothered about Batman killing either, but it could be some reflections about it.

I guess. I didn't miss such reflections, but I can understand what they would add as well.

 

[Eros]

Begins most glearing problem is that it didn't end like this

BEST BATMAN MOVIE ENDING EVER, Batman89 especially combined with the Danny elfman amazing ending muscial score.

 

[Batman jr.]

Begins most glearing problem is that it didn't end like this

BEST BATMAN MOVIE ENDING EVER, Batman89 especially combined with the Danny elfman amazing ending muscial score.

No, it didn't end like that. Because it's a different film.

 

[El Payaso]

Some roles are better merged than others. It's not like all role merging is equal, after all.

Which finally leads us to the golden question... why are they different and what makes one more valid than the other.

But those questions are not as important as my main point: the fact that just writing a list of flaws does little to nothing for discussion. And that's why I always demand a further explanation so we can discuss about something and not limit ourselves to write down a list pof compalints.

Now if you reply telling us why you liked one merging and not the other, we'll start to see how the Joker merging was a flaw in your opinbion and not just a 'Meh, I just felt like it was a flaw.'

In this very post there are examples of it.

Well, the B89 narrative was fairly clear, even if I did have major issues with the Joker's grand plan (how and why is he able to just march through the Gotham streets without any police resistance? I know Gotham is pretty far gone, but still...). I didn't mean by saying BEGINS had a clear narrative that B89 did not.

Well, thanks to analysis and discussion we passed from "The B89 narrative is somewhat cloudy" to "the B89 narrative was fairly clear." Lot better than just discredit something just like that.

Fair enough. I'll back off my severe misreading of a scene. Glad to see it wasn't what I thought, but at the same time, I can't help but think the scene is somewhat vague about what happens at that moment.

The thing with that scene is that it makes people think something else happens when it's not. It basically makes you see what you want to see. So any sexual innuendo is inside your mind basically. Which I find a great thing in cinematography instead of the linear old narrative where everything's spoonfeeding-explained in just one way and one way only.

Well, sure it's a flaw. A flaw is whatever doesn't work for the viewer, one way or another. Why do you think one actor's performance works for someone and it doesn't for another? Or that one visual style will be too garish and busy for one viewer, and that the other will think it's magical? It's all highly subjective, but so is any abstract value judgement.

Yes. Now, as I said, when you state something's a flaw it's expected some development to it. "I felt that acting was bad because of x, y or z." That way we can understand why someone actually consider it a flaw, and put the idea apart from just void complaining.

Fair enough, though the extent to which that plothole bothers the viewer can vary widely.

Superman the movie's plothole about Superman not being able to chase a rocket and then he's able to go round the world several times per second is a classic. It is undeniable but I don't know many people who'd say 'That ruined the movie.' So, how to add that to a flaws list without pointing out that it wasn't actually what you could consider a flaw, because it didn't ruin a thing for you. Or maybe you can add it to the list by saying that 'in spite' of being a flaw, it was not really important.

 

[Agentsands77]

The short of it, El, was that I wasn't looking to provide an essay to support my various points - I just wanted to make my "it's all subjective" point and get out of here. I've dissected B89 enough elsewhere to know that the roundabout discussion on it goes nowhere.

 

[El Payaso]

But as you see, even the 'all subjective' pov is so subjective that you ended up re-phrasing a 'flaw' as a good thing (B89 narrative) yourself, or seeing a flaw where there wasn't any (B89 bat-cave sexual/non sexual scene).

Based on that, I'd say we're pretty much going somewhere here and not nowhere as you say this discussion is condemned to be.

So I don't see a very definitive point in the subjectivity other than is subjectivity itself what can lead you to nowhere or wrong conclusions.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I actually liked the Batman Begins ending MORE b/c of it being the rooftop meeting. We've never really had that in a Bat-film.......and for it to end like that seemed perfect. Bout time too.

And, oddly enough.....I think we got the reflection of all the killing Batman had done in Batman Forever. One of the few thing that film managed to do right.

 

[Agentsands77]

I actually liked the Batman Begins ending MORE b/c of it being the rooftop meeting. We've never really had that in a Bat-film.......and for it to end like that seemed perfect. Bout time too.

I LOVED that ending. It was the perfect "Batman's crusade has begun" ending, as well as beautifully setting the stage for adventures to come. The BATMAN 1989 ending is iconic, to be sure, but I'll take the BB ending over that (as well as the BR ending - I love that bittersweet touch).

Based on that, I'd say we're pretty much going somewhere here and not nowhere as you say this discussion is condemned to be.

We're only going the somewhere re: specific points. Not regarding how I feel towards the movie on the whole.

So I don't see a very definitive point in the subjectivity other than is subjectivity itself what can lead you to nowhere or wrong conclusions.

The ultimate point is that neither BATMAN 1989 or BATMAN BEGINS is really better than the other. We can argue till we're blue in the face over certain points, bring up new flaws or dismiss old ones, but the fact of the matter is what experience we enjoy the most, and experience is something that cannot be argued with.

 

[El Payaso]

We're only going the somewhere re: specific points. Not regarding how I feel towards the movie on the whole.

Not discrediting your (or anyone's) feelings towards the movie on the whole but with that we're limiting ourselves to a 'I loved/hated the movie' and that's it since further discusssion and analysis would be useless.

The ultimate point is that neither BATMAN 1989 or BATMAN BEGINS is really better than the other. We can argue till we're blue in the face over certain points, bring up new flaws or dismiss old ones, but the fact of the matter is what experience we enjoy the most, and experience is something that cannot be argued with.

From your words we can reach two conclusions; flaws lists are useless and discussion boards are useless. After that what's the point of being in here.

But discussion can often open our minds to new points of views and ways of perceptions that we can adopt - changing someone else's mind doesn't have to be the only one aim or even an aim - and therefore there's the possibility of intelectual profit. I've seen it happening and I saw happening right in this very discussion.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Yeah, there ARE good points in BB, even though I didn't really like it much. But there are bad things, these are the things we should address so we can look forward to an improved sequel!

 

[El Payaso]

I'd say the sad part of BB - and many many other superhero movies I've seen recently - is that even when it's really good and have really few flaws, the flaws are too important.

 

[Cyrusbales]

I'd say the sad part of BB - and many many other superhero movies I've seen recently - is that even when it's really good and have really few flaws, the flaws are too important.

Yeah, i mean micro-emmitor? People not realising that Peter is spidey after his showing at the school? C'mon! how dumn are movie characters!

 

[El Payaso]

Don't make me start with Spiderman 1. The huge amount of bad things there and specially the intensity of such flaws makes me realize how idiotic a movie must be to be a huge blockbuster sometimes.

ABout BB I can live in peace with the microwave thing. It doesn't mean we cannot dicuss about it but for me didn't ruin a thing.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Don't make me start with Spiderman 1. The huge amount of bad things there and specially the intensity of such flaws makes me realize how idiotic a movie must be to be a huge blockbuster sometimes.

ABout BB I can live in peace with the microwave thing. It doesn't mean we cannot dicuss about it but for me didn't ruin a thing.

the whole car chase really winds me up too. and the pedo voice of voice as batman

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't understand the problem with the emitter. I mean, if your a scientist....fine, then I can understand your gripe. But, it seems like being very very nitpicky just b/c it's "out there".

The Spidey 1 thing....yeah......I mean, having him do a 360 spin in mid air in a high school fight....and nobody putting two and two together........stupid.

What you hate about the car chase though?

 

[Cyrusbales]

I don't understand the problem with the emitter. I mean, if your a scientist....fine, then I can understand your gripe. But, it seems like being very very nitpicky just b/c it's "out there".

The Spidey 1 thing....yeah......I mean, having him do a 360 spin in mid air in a high school fight....and nobody putting two and two together........stupid.

What you hate about the car chase though?

it's pointless, he turns the lights off, then turns them on again, then just speeds past anyway, he could have kept the lights off then sped past anyways. It's not a very interesting chase either. One of my fav car chases is in amorros perros, as it's a li ldifferent yet still a traditional car chase in some aspects.

 

[Agentsands77]

As big a BEGINS fan as I am, I have to confess that the Batmobile chase isn't flawless. I love certain moments of it, but I do hate a lot of the silly cop comments and the stealth moment on the freeway doesn't make much sense to me, either. Still, IMO, it's a better action scene than any in the prior Bat-films.

I never had an issue with the microwave emitter. Sure, it's not plausible to someone with scientific knowledge, but I bet it didn't cross most people's minds while watching the film.

 

[Agentsands77]

*edited*

 

[mclay18]

The only quibbles I had with BB is how Lee Smith edited the fight scenes. They're still exciting, but it would be nice to see who's hitting who... and the other flaw is Katie Holmes. Her acting is adequate but her character is just a cardboard stereotype, it would've been better if her character was cut or recast with a better actress.

Even with these quibbles, I still highly enjoy the movie. In fact, those errors are part of the charm of watching BB. I'm not going to ***** about them, but I do mention them when I have the opportunity.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It looked to me that he entered stealth mode to lose the helicopter so that he'd be able to lose the patrol cars without worrying about the helicopter at all.

 

[kenellard]

The only quibbles I had with BB is how Lee Smith edited the fight scenes. They're still exciting, but it would be nice to see who's hitting who... and the other flaw is Katie Holmes. Her acting is adequate but her character is just a cardboard stereotype, it would've been better if her character was cut or recast with a better actress.

Even with these quibbles, I still highly enjoy the movie. In fact, those errors are part of the charm of watching BB. I'm not going to ***** about them, but I do mention them when I have the opportunity.

I think the flaw lies more with the script than katie holmes, I found no real instances of "bad acting" in her performance, Dawes was IMO a useless character, only there to move the story along when needed. the solution would have been to either give her important lines to either Alfred or Gordon (which would've made him more than just a bit player too) or to write her into the story properly. you might say that she had such and such to do with bruce realising the real enemy and so on, but there are already people in bruces life that could've done so, without the need to invent stereotypical love interests to give lengthy and unmoving speeches

 

[Agentsands77]

It looked to me that he entered stealth mode to lose the helicopter so that he'd be able to lose the patrol cars without worrying about the helicopter at all.

Oh... I see. Makes sense, then.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Just read what Doc said and wow thats alot. But I don't feel like reading all 8 pages of replies so I'll just conclude myself: Doc, you make very interesting points indeed, I respect your opinion but don't agree with many of them. I personally loved Batman '89 since it first came out and my opinion about it has not changed one bit, and I expect the same to happen for Nolan's Batman films.

I will not choose between Batman Begins and Batman '89, however Tim Burton>>>Chris Nolan.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I gotta disagree. I think Rachel Dawes was hardly a sterotype character. She was something different, I think. And, instead of being the immediate love interest, she was more of a past lover of Bruce's it seemed. She actually served a pretty good purpose in the story, basically being one of the people Batman went to so to bring down Falcone. And, she served a purpose in Bruce's character devlopment as well.

Really, the only thin that was "sterotypical" was her having to be saved by Batman. I think the rest was different enough.

And, Katie Holmes didn't do a bad job either. She didn't do a good job, either too. She just wasn't very convincing as this character, I felt. But, everyone knows that b/c of her personal life......her realtionship with Tom Cruise, and the whole goddamn TOMKAT thing.....it created a giant storm of hatred and criticism her way, making people be even more crictical of her in Batman Begins. I don't think it was fair, but that's part of the heat she got for it.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Oh... I see. Makes sense, then.

Check this out. This is something Fenrir posted in the "Batman wreckless and dumb? No." thread. It's pretty cool info on the chase scene when Batman enters stealth mode.

OK, this has been brought up so many times and for so long I hoped someone would've been smart enough to bring it up but alas, it seems that the only thing some people are good at is *****ing and complaining over things they don't understand.

First of all, the tracking searchlights on helicopters are not manually operated. They work using thermal imaging that automatically track the heat emissions from the engines of a vehicle. That's why in real-life, patrol helicopters don't lose or confuse suspect vehicles on the open road.

Now when Batman engages "stealth mode" on the Tumbler, you see that only do the lights turn off, but the thundering engine also quiets down. This was explained in the leaked script that in stealth mode, the Tumbler switches to an electric engine that does not give off any heat emissions and combine that with the angular plates with RAM coating taken straight from F-117s, the Tumbler would be invisible to both thermal and radar tracking systems.

Now, as soon as Batman engages stealth mode, he immediately pulls back. Now the cops couldn't keep track on him because the helicopter searchlight lost it's focus from the Tumbler. As you know, if you immediately go from a well-lit from into a dark room, it will take your eyes some time to adjust to the lighting before you get your bearings. Likewise, earlier the Tumbler was lit up like a Dutch brothel on the freeway with the helicopter searchlight, but as soon as it went into stealth mode, it became a black dot on a pitch black freeway, where light is the only means of identification:

Can you see the Tumbler in those pics or not? Neither could the cops. Of course, like the example I have given above, the cops eventually "see" the Tumbler once their eyes got used to the darkness of the freeway when the helicopter broke pursuit.

Sure, it requires a little suspension of disbelief but really, it's a pretty contemporary concept and not all impossible or lacking sense like the posters in here have repeatedly claimed it to be.