Now that America's superheroes have been "federalized" who will they answer to?

[TheCorpulent1]

His intentions are good at the moment, yeah, but there is that adage about absolute power. What were his intentions with Clor, I wonder? Nothing good came of that, no matter what he intended. Things have a tendency to spiral out of control way too fast for any one person to cope with at the level Tony's playing at.

 

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, but I'm trying to keep in mind that this a comic book world, and it doesn't have to resemble the real world if that's what the writer wants.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

But it's a Marvel comic book world, so it's likely going to resemble the cynical parts of the real world, if nothing else.

 

[necross20]

True, but the goverment have had "absolute power" for a lot longer than Tony and even though members change their darker habbits don't.
Like i've already said, I agree that Tony can be an ass and his actions resulted in the death of Goliath and the possible wrath of Thor and maybe even Cap's death as an unexpected tragedy, but im going for what I think is the lesser of two evils.

 

[PhotoJones]

But it's a Marvel comic book world, so it's likely going to resemble the cynical parts of the real world, if nothing else.

It definitely leans more towards the real world then DC. That doesn't mean it's got to be a carbon copy. Hell, if it was, Stark Enterprises would be getting no bid contracts left and right with Stark sabotaging the N-Zone prison to fuel the funds on recapturing the villians.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

True, but the goverment have had "absolute power" for a lot longer than Tony and even though members change their darker habbits don't.
Like i've already said, I agree that Tony can be an ass and his actions resulted in the death of Goliath and the possible wrath of Thor and maybe even Cap's death as an unexpected tragedy, but im going for what I think is the lesser of two evils.

Eh, I'd agree with that much. Tony is the lesser of two evils at the moment. I still think it's far too risky to trust that he'd stay that way if he were handed the reins of the superhero army, though. With the government, you can at least trust that there'll be someone there to step in and contest whatever they're doing wrong. Hell, Tony himself could be the one to do that, and SHIELD and his own technological arsenal have the resources to make his say count. If Tony had control of SHIELD, his arsenal, and the superhero army, who could possibly step up to say anything about how he's running things? Who has the power to back up any harsh words in that scenario?

 

[necross20]

The rest of the supes can step up. Hell even Reed would develop some balls and make Tony stop if he thought he was getting out of control (not that Reed is much better, or Pym for that matter)
And I agree that it's possible that Tony will let it go to his head. But like we've both agreed upon, for now he seems to be the man for the job. I also think the people feel a lot safer with him on the reigns than the goverment.
I remember an issue of Cable and Deadpool where Cable mentioned he read the minds of the people of this planet and most, if not all wanted the goverment stopped. Tony helps to make the goverment more personable if anything.

 

[Steve Rogers]

We were talking about the Initiative, as far as I know. The program to install superhero teams in every state in the USA. That answers to the Commission on Superhuman Activities, not Tony Stark or SHIELD.

Well the thread is "Now that America's superheroes have been..." so I assumed it was heroes in general. I was thinking of the whole She-Hulk story arc where Tony pulls her out of her regular life against her will and makes her a SHIELD agent to combat the Hulk's enemies. Because She-Hulk was registered (and Walters was anti-registration. Why did they not explore that potentially mind blowing arc more?????) Tony had the authority to use her as he saw fit.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

SHIELD's always been able to deputize superheroes, haven't they? I don't think that's tied to registration at all. In fact, now that the superheroes have superhero "day jobs" as a result of registration, I imagine it would be harder for SHIELD to deputize them if they're already on an Initiative team.

Anyway, in the end it always comes back to jurisdiction for me. The USA has an agency set up to deal with the Initiative--the CSA. SHIELD, no matter how much it cooperates with the USA, is a UN organization. Having SHIELD be in charge of the USA's 50-State Initiative would basically be giving the internal defense of the nation's states away to some outside contractor.

 

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, it makes a lot more sense for the Initiative program to fall under the CSA. I think the confusion lies in seeing capekillers and regular SHIELD agents in the background of everything Initiative related.

 

[Steve Rogers]

SHIELD's always been able to deputize superheroes, haven't they?

I don't know. Maybe. I didn't think so though. But if that's he case my whole argument goes out the window.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I know they've always been able to call heroes in as "consultants." Functionally, that's about the same as deputizing them. That's pretty much what Fury did to Cap, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Daredevil, and Luke Cage in Secret War.

 

[Steve Rogers]

I know they've always been able to call heroes in as "consultants." Functionally, that's about the same as deputizing them. That's pretty much what Fury did to Cap, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Daredevil, and Luke Cage in Secret War.

But now they don't have a choice. If SHIELD wants you; you're in. Was that always the case? Not arguing, I'm just not too sure on my superhero law. Where's Jennifer Walters when you really need her?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's the part I'm not entirely certain of. Captain America and Wolverine tended to work with SHIELD the most, but both are all about running missions and have ties to Nick Fury going back decades. I can't remember if Spidey et al. were legally forced to comply in Secret War or if Nick Fury just coerced them somehow.

 

[Steve Rogers]

I'm sure someone on this board can clearify this. I hope.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Pretty much anyone who's read Secret War and has a better memory than I do ought to be able to.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Now that America's superheroes have been effectively "federalized" with a team of heroes in every state- who will they be responsible to- the Governor of their state or Washington DC?
Will there be "turf wars" between heroes in different states- ie Pennsylvania and Delaware, or Ohio and Maryland?

Terry

This guy:

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

It seems to be SHIELD backed, by home controlled. Such as, Rhodes apparently is in charge of the base, which was given to him by Tony, but that might've happened while Tony was still in charge of the entire SHRA Initiative before he took the head of SHIELD over. As such a base would already be in construction, and people being handpicked already.

It seems the Initiative itself though is mainly based on Homeland Security, or a new branch of the armed forces, dealing not with military issues, and can only function on it's home turf (as, unlike Ultimates), they haven't been shown to have any interest outside of it's borders.

But this is odd as well, as it seems the American Initiative seems to be helping out other countries with their own form (iIrc), where it should be SHIELD doing that.

It seems that SHIELD simply has influence, but not control.

So, in truth, it's like the real UN. It likes to make out like it makes a difference, then turns around and makes no difference.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

But now they don't have a choice. If SHIELD wants you; you're in. Was that always the case? Not arguing, I'm just not too sure on my superhero law. Where's Jennifer Walters when you really need her?

SHIELD can't just abduct you unless you're breaking laws pertaining to SHIELD specifically, and the government is compliant with that. (Which is why people like Abomination never seemed to go away, when SHIELD seems to do a better job and imprisoning villans, and KEEPING them there.

That's the part I'm not entirely certain of. Captain America and Wolverine tended to work with SHIELD the most, but both are all about running missions and have ties to Nick Fury going back decades. I can't remember if Spidey et al. were legally forced to comply in Secret War or if Nick Fury just coerced them somehow.

It was totally illegal, and the last nail in Fury's coffin that would have had him ousted from SHIELD head.

He got Cap and Wolverine to work with him, because Cap likes it when the government is with him, and does sneaky stuff. Or maybe he just likes to go against governments. j/k He probably did it because he felt it was it was for the best, given the situation. Wolverine probably did it because, well, he's Wolverine, and actually seems to LIKE Fury.

Luke Cage's "patriotism" won the day there. Despite the fact he apparently HATES Nick Fury, as Fury stated something like that, and added "He'll take money and jobs from ANYBODY on Earth but me."

Spidey was guilted into it.

It was totally off the radar, and resulted in a bunch of tech villans almost destroying New York as a direct result of the incursion.

 

[BrianWilly]

But now they don't have a choice. If SHIELD wants you; you're in. Was that always the case?

In theory, that would have required special approval that an espionage agency shouldn't possess. In theory, a branch of the government can only "deputize" other branches of the government, aka non-civilians, unless protocol gets totally thrown out the window.

In practice however, SHIELD and Fury could (and did) come up with any number of reasons to "persuade" a hero to work for them anyway.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Not so much SHIELD, as just Fury.

 

[fifthfiend]

I think Tony would make a better leader of the America's supes than the goverment would.

It's probably worth considering --

It was the goverment who initiated the Weapon X programme. The goverment who intitiated the Sentinal programme. The goverment of Genosha were responsible for the slavery and (I think) torture and ultimate murder of the whole Island. The goverment allowed the prime minister of Latveria to make deals with the Machinesmith, which prmopted Fury's Secret War.

-- that Tony Stark waged a war to force superpeople to register their identities with the same government that did all of those things. Which speaks at the very least to some rather large gaps in his judgment, if not his good intentions.

Tony in spite of all his faults isn't corrupt. He'll do what he thinks is best for everyone, more often than not anyway.

It's also probably worth noting that you're using a definition of "not corrupt" which would just as easily apply to, say, Doctor Doom.

Which I mean don't get me wrong Doctor Doom is totally great, I'm just saying if that's what you should really be demanding that the actual Doctor Doom step in and run things, instead of the poor-man's Doctor Doom like they have now.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

It's also probably worth noting that you're using a definition of "not corrupt" which would just as easily apply to, say, Doctor Doom.

Which I mean don't get me wrong Doctor Doom is totally great, I'm just saying if that's what you should really be demanding that the actual Doctor Doom step in and run things, instead of the poor-man's Doctor Doom like they have now.

Actually, it wouldn't apply that well.

 

[necross20]

It's probably worth considering --

-- that Tony Stark waged a war to force superpeople to register their identities with the same government that did all of those things. Which speaks at the very least to some rather large gaps in his judgment, if not his good intentions.

It's also probably worth noting that you're using a definition of "not corrupt" which would just as easily apply to, say, Doctor Doom.

Which I mean don't get me wrong Doctor Doom is totally great, I'm just saying if that's what you should really be demanding that the actual Doctor Doom step in and run things, instead of the poor-man's Doctor Doom like they have now.

I'd like to think so, given some of the alternatives.

We all follows laws made by goverments that are filled with people who can barely tie their own shoelaces, it's how the world works. Stark tried to stop the SHRA from passing, when he couldn't he stood behind it rather than brake the law. If anything it speaks about his practicality. He remembers the Avengers being controlled by the goverment, I suspect he'd rather not put other heroes through that.

Ok im the first to admit that Tony Stark is an utter **** on times, I can't actually stand the character but I find it funny that he's compared to Doom. Doom tries to kill people, he gets away with it because he has diplomatic immunity. Generally if Tony does something wrong he steps up and says so, usually just before clearing his name by some odd fluke.

 

[3dman27]

I know they've always been able to call heroes in as "consultants." Functionally, that's about the same as deputizing them. That's pretty much what Fury did to Cap, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Daredevil, and Luke Cage in Secret War.

maybe marvel should have emphasized that more than a "war on terror"anology