The Dark Knight Rises Official Selina Kyle / Catwoman thread

[Timstuff]

Alright, I see a bunch of Catwoman threads popping up, and the last dedicated Catwoman thread I remember is gone now, so let's have ourselves an official thread already! Remember, this is not to be confused with the Catwoman casting thread, which is for actress discussion. This is a thread specifically for discussing the character and the various aspects of bringing her into Batman 3. If you've got something to say specifically about Catwoman, chances are it's best said in here!

Let me start with some of my own thoughts on the character: I think that Catwoman should be more of an antihero / supporting character, rather than being a true villain like she was in Batman Retuns. Like Batman she exists as a shade of gray, but usually of a darker tone (or, in some rare instances, a lighter one). She runs along rooftops playing Robinhood, robbing Gotham's rich (and greedy, as she'd percieve them) to fund her own interests, some of which may be noble, while others are more selfish. And of couse, she loves the hunt, and gets a kick out of being chased by Batman.

Alright, now let's get this thread moving. Discuss Batman's feline fatale here!

 

[Ethermatic]

Personally, I think Selina Kyle/Catwoman would be one of the easiest to translate from the comics to the big screen. Her current look, highlighted early on by Darwyn Cook and polished by the likes of Adam Hughes and Jim Lee are easily the best and most realistic physical portrayal. And would require little to no change on Nolan's part. Couple that with any necessary equipment she would carry with her for both burglary and spying, and you're set. Not to start a back-and-forth for the actress, but I still like Kate Beckinsale and Eva Green for such a part. There are others I have considered before, but those are my top two.

I'm on the same side I'm always on...
It's no secret that Nolan finds influences from many of the great Batman graphic novels, especially The Long Halloween. I believe her attitude and style both in The Long Halloween and Dark Victory would be perfect for the film and add that necessary shade of grey. But also appeal to both Batman and Bruce Wayne. Perhaps a beautiful socialite with a dark or seedy past. More an anti-hero than villain, who can do many good things in the film, but by committing crimes or doing little services for the Gotham City Underworld. Whether it be spying or getting information for them.

 

[Gianakin_]

Catwoman can easily be translated into a movie, as a mirror of Batman gone slightly wrong. Plus, I think it's time to bring a female villain in the franchise. Especially now that Rachel's out of the picture.

 

[Sloth7d]

Basically, I see her starting off as a wealthy madam (prostitue/pimp) who manages several underground brothels throughout all of Gotham. Something happens, (maybe her husband or business partner tries to kill her), she snaps (dones the costume and equipment, maybe even some training) and begins taking her revenge out on those who've wronged her by robbing those responsible, killing those responsible, ect.
Or not. I leave it all up to Nolan whether she's used and how. At this point, I trust his choices.

 

[Timstuff]

I personally want them to stay away from the idea of "Selina is someone who snapped and then put on a costume." It does not work that way in real life. I always imagined that Selina is someone who has been making a living as a thief since she was a kid, eventually becoming a world-class cat burglar. Expert cat burglars are not people who "snapped" and then became good at it over night.

Personally, I would rather they not show Selina's transition to Catwoman. I think that Catwoman should be a pre-existing phenomina who's been around for a while, but she has not been working within Gotham until recently, so she hasn't been of any concern to Batman. One night, Batman catches her breaking into a building, and they have a little chase scene.

If you have Catwoman as a pre-existing character, you can focus more on who she is rather than getting tripped up on where she came from. She'd have plenty of back story, sure, but they can probably skip showing her actual origin for the most part. I don't want them to just show a stupid 3-minute Selina-to-Catwoman "origin" like they had in Batman Returns. This version of Catwoman's origin should be her entire life's story, much like Batman's origin is his life's story. And since it's not Catwoman's movie, you can't show her origin the same way Bruce's was shown, because then it becomes a Catwoman movie. Having her as a pre-existing character whom Batman hasn't met is the way to go IMO.

Catwoman is what Selina Kyle has chosen to do about the world's problems, and how she relieves her own emotional problems. Catwoman should not be just some random fluke that caused a woman to put on a costume and weild a whip. She needs to be someone who devoted her entire life to becoming the absolute best in the world at what she does, which would have taken years of practice. She should be a professional thief with a personal agenda, not just a traumatized woman acting out selfish revenge fantasies about a past attacker.

 

[BobJM]

Catwoman should have no origin in BB3. She is simply a masked woman who robs mob lords (Black Mask) and has become the unofficial protector of Gotham's East End (could be substituted for the Narrows).

Batman and her run into each other frequently, causing him to question his moral integrity and the boundaries he's set up for himself. She can cross the line that he can't and treats what they do as a game, whereas he has (following TDK's events) become distant and deadset on his mission to rid Gotham of crime. SHe represents the gray area that still exists within himself.

Eventually, he accepts her actions against the mob as he sees that it cripples their empire. Plus, he learns that together with her, he isn't alone in his fight anymore.

 

[jackshea]

i Think they should have her steal incomplete equipment for batman from fox, it would play up the cat burglar aspect and give her an excuse to dress like that because its stolen bat costume stuff thats incomplete so it looks like a cat.

 

[Timstuff]

Catwoman should have no origin in BB3. She is simply a masked woman who robs mob lords (Black Mask) and has become the unofficial protector of Gotham's East End (could be substituted for the Narrows).

Batman and her run into each other frequently, causing him to question his moral integrity and the boundaries he's set up for himself. She can cross the line that he can't and treats what they do as a game, whereas he has (following TDK's events) become distant and deadset on his mission to rid Gotham of crime. SHe represents the gray area that still exists within himself.

Eventually, he accepts her actions against the mob as he sees that it cripples their empire. Plus, he learns that together with her, he isn't alone in his fight anymore.

That is pretty much how I think Catwoman should be as well, although I think that her better traits should be somewhat less visible to Batman at first. Also, she should not limit herself to just robbing mob bosses, but instead anyone who she considers to be greedy and over privelaged.

Catwoman's view of Gotham's problems should start out a bit more shallow than Batman's. The version of Catwoman I have in my head would have been born into the narrows, and escaped them as a teenager after stealing enough to afford a better life. If that were the case, she'd probably see Gotham's corruption as a matter of the "haves" vs. the "have nots," while Batman sees the bigger picture of good vs. evil.

i Think they should have her steal incomplete equipment for batman from fox, it would play up the cat burglar aspect and give her an excuse to dress like that because its stolen bat costume stuff thats incomplete so it looks like a cat.

Frankly, I don't really like this idea. Catwoman's cowl, while bearing some similarities to Batman's, typically has a very different silhouette (unless we're talking the Burton costume). Batman's ears are very straight and pointed upward, while Catwoman's are a bit more rounded, and facing forward like a cat's. Also, her stealing a cowl from Wayne Industries would kind of undermine all the reasons she would choose a cat as her signature animal.

 

[jackshea]

wel the ears could be inprogress almost half satelite, so they are rounder and face forward, and she wouldn't know it was for batman, all of it would look different b/c she's stealing prototype equipment.

 

[Timstuff]

Even so, I think Catwoman should have a fairly minimalist approach towards her burglaries. Her goggles could have IR to help her around security systems, but she seems like the kind of thief who would trust her body a lot more than she'd trust high tech gadgets.

 

[yoshimura]

Going along with the wealthy madam (prostitue/pimp)

she should be into S&M, hence the costume. It wouldn't be a primary focus, but I remember Bale saying that he wanted to explore the sexual side of things.

 

[Timstuff]

Just say no to dominatrix Catwoman.

Especially after that awful Halle Berry fiasco.

 

[jmc]

Regarding Catwoman, I don't think her origin needs to be laid out in any great detail, but I think it should be hinted at, that all was not good for her growing up and leave it somewhat open to the audience as to how they interpret it.

 

[jmc]

Just say no to dominatrix Catwoman.

Especially after that awful Halle Berry fiasco.

Totally agree, no dominatrix Catwoman.

 

[Timstuff]

Regarding Catwoman, I don't think her origin needs to be laid out in any great detail, but I think it should be hinted at, that all was not good for her growing up and leave it somewhat open to the audience as to how they interpret it.

I think that one way they could potentially hint at some of Selina's backstory would be to have a scene where she goes to Arkham to get some info out of her deadbeat biological father, Carmine Falcone. They could say a lot about Selina's past just by dropping a few lines, like how Selina was "a dirty little orphan from the narrows," and "did you really think a teenage girl could rob the Falcones and get off Scott free?"

 

[flickchick85]

I don't think she needs much of a backstory. I always thought of her as a socialite who steals from all of her greedy social peers because A.) she's a thrill-seeker who's quite proud of the skills she's honed, B.) She believes her cause (whatever it is, something to do with cats, maybe) is a more noble and worthy use of the wealth and C.) She's a free-spirit who hates her social peers, including Bruce Wayne (who of course is totally infatuated with her), until she figures out he's Batman, of course. I'd like to see her eventually agree to date Bruce because she figures out his true identity (a conspicuous scar after a tussle with Batman, perhaps?) and have her fall for the real Bruce, behind the mask, while Bruce falls for her totally oblivious to the fact that she's Catwoman.

I think that whole "Bruce loves Selina, Selina/Catwoman loves Batman/the real Bruce, Batman sees Catwoman only as a criminal" dynamic could be very potent stuff. Especially at the end when Bruce learns the truth, and especially in the hands of a filmmaker like Nolan. Selina could even offer to (try to) give up her criminal ways for him at the end, but he'd insist she pay for her crimes.

As for casting, my constantly changing top choices are currently Marion Cotillard and Charlize Theron.

 

[jackshea]

nolan goes for talent, then looks, my money is on rachel weisz.

 

[Timstuff]

The complexity of Catwoman and Batman's relationship is easily the most intriguing aspect of it, and the more complications you can find for it, the more interesting it becomes. I definitely like the idea of Catwoman finding out Batman's true identity before he finds out hers, because it's a bit different from the typical C/B story stucture, and it adds another ethical dilemma for Batman when he finds out her identity. The "letter of the law" says he should turn her in, but that may not necessarily be the right thing to do, since Selina already knew his secret and kept it faithfully.

Also, there's another moral / ethical dilemma that would be similar to [blackout]what Batman and Gordon were discussing at the end of TDK in regards to Harvey Dent's legacy[/blackout]. Although some of Selina's reasons for being a thief were selfish, a lot of the money she took would have been used to fund her charity interests. If the authorities find out that Selina's charities were being funded with stolen money, it could potentially do a lot of harm to Gotham's poor. Just as Catwoman exists in a gray area of right and wrong, so would the answer to whether or not Batman should turn her in.

 

[jmc]

I think that one way they could potentially hint at some of Selina's backstory would be to have a scene where she goes to Arkham to get some info out of her deadbeat biological father, Carmine Falcone. They could say a lot about Selina's past just by dropping a few lines, like how Selina was "a dirty little orphan from the narrows," and "did you really think a teenage girl could rob the Falcones and get off Scott free?"

I've never liked the whole Falcone being her father angle they tried, I was thinking more of what she says (or doesn't say) to Bruce, an inability to tell him about her past.

 

[Sloth7d]

Going along with the wealthy madam (prostitue/pimp)

she should be into S&M, hence the costume. It wouldn't be a primary focus, but I remember Bale saying that he wanted to explore the sexual side of things.

That's pretty much how I see it going down. I hope Nolan goes with this, but eitherway, I trust his decision.

Just say no to dominatrix Catwoman.

Especially after that awful Halle Berry fiasco.

Halle Berry was no where near being even close to any representation of any version of Catwoman ever, especially dominatrix Catwoman. No man. Just no.

 

[Timstuff]

The thing is, I already hated the idea of Selina Kyle going from dominatrix to cat burglar (seriously, what does beating up men with no self esteem for money have in common with sneaking into high security facilities and homes, anyway?), but the fact that Halle Berry's version of Catwoman was so blatantly dominatrix themed turned me off to the idea even more than I had been initially. I don't like the idea of Selina starting off as a prostitute, because it has nothing to do with being an expert cat burglar, and I feel like it cheapens her character.

I look at it more like this: Selina knew she was in trouble when she landed on the streets, but she refused to earn her meals by being a slave to a bunch of piggish men. So instead, she decided she'd simply take whatever she needed or wanted. It started off with picking pockets, and eventually she was breaking and entering. That's how you go from a street orphan to a world class jewel thief. The only reason that Selina was ever depicted as a prostitute was because Frank Millar felt like her character wasn't dirty enough to work with the stories he was writing, and in later years he actually stated that he now thinks it was a mistake. Just don't do it, that's what I say.

 

[Sloth7d]

Halle Berry's Catwoman was dominatrix themed? Since... when? She had very normal sex with Benjamin Bratt.

 

[Timstuff]

I'm referring to her costume, which was awful. But even if it was just a crappy dominatrix-themed costume, it was enough to make me like the idea of a dominatrix Catwoman even less than I already did (as in, I went from hating it to loathing it).

BTW, I think that a lot of people have a general misunderstanding of the psychology behind prostitution. If Catwoman really were a former prostitute, he relations with Batman would be much different. Selina Kyle is constantly portrayed as having an infatuation with Batman, but the reality is that prostitutes have almost no interest in sex whatsoever. This also means that the much hyped "animalistic libido" that many fanboys daydream about Catwoman having would not exist at all. In most cases, in fact, prostitutes hate sex, and if they didn't need the money they'd probably never have it.

The simple fact of the matter is that prostitutes are not horny at all. If you want a "realistic" Catwoman who's also a former prostitute, she's not going to be like the Catwoman we know. If you want a Catwoman like the one from the comics, you're better off just making her a life long professional thief instead of all this nonsense about being a prostitute turned masked avenger.

 

[jmc]

I'm doubtful they would go with the former prostitute angle, it's never really been accepted as her origin.

 

[Sloth7d]

I'm referring to her costume, which was awful. But even if it was just a crappy dominatrix-themed costume, it was enough to make me like the idea of a dominatrix Catwoman even less than I already did (as in, I went from hating it to loathing it).

But it looks nothing like the costume Catwoman wore in her dominatrix days, so I really don't see how that affects your decision to exclude dominatrix Catwoman. Pretty much everything from that movie should be ignored as having anything to do with DC comic's Catwoman.

BTW, I think that a lot of people have a general misunderstanding of the psychology behind prostitution. If Catwoman really were a former prostitute, he relations with Batman would be much different. Selina Kyle is constantly portrayed as having an infatuation with Batman, but the reality is that prostitutes have almost no interest in sex whatsoever. This also means that the much hyped "animalistic libido" that many fanboys daydream about Catwoman having would not exist at all. In most cases, in fact, prostitutes hate sex, and if they didn't need the money they'd probably never have it.

The simple fact of the matter is that prostitutes are not horny at all. If you want a "realistic" Catwoman who's also a former prostitute, she's not going to be like the Catwoman we know. If you want a Catwoman like the one from the comics, you're better off just making her a life long professional thief instead of all this nonsense about being a prostitute turned masked avenger.

Isn't that a generalization, though? You don't think there's even one prostitute who likes sex? Not even one? Or at least one who could actually develope an obsession over one person?