Official Wolverine And The X-men, Episode 10 "Genosha" Discussion

[Syncos]

There is no continuity with the movies Syncos. Please explain how it ties into the movies at all? The answer is, it doesn't. The creators already confirmed this show is its own separate thing not tied to the movies or Evolution.

Does it coincide with Wolverine movie? Sure. That's why it's debuting here in 2009, but it's already airing in many other parts of the world and already finished in Latin America.

If this was supposed to be in line with the movies then Jean wouldn't be around at the beginning and a number of other things.

sorry for replying again,

It's not that the series happens to coincide with a Wolverine movie. They made a series where wolverine was the front man because they made a wolverine movie. The same reason they're making an avengers cartoon because they're making a movie. It's just good business.

 

[Dread]

Some bits about W&TXM's history and characters are inspired by the movies, but I do not believe this is seen as some sort of canonized part of the franchise, unlike MTV SPIDER-MAN which tried to be SPIDER-MAN 1.5.

It should be noted that in the early 80's when Rogue was a new member of the X-Men, a decent length of time was spent with her trying to win over Wolverine's trust. It isn't until she nearly dies helping him during the Viper/Silver Samurai affair that Logan begins to trust her, sharing his power with a kiss at least once. The movies you could argue took that dynamic and embellished it, and the cartoons took that bit from the films, so it comes full circle.

In the late 90's when the team had a void in leadership, Rogue even has to challenge Wolverine to a fight to earn the title from him. She wins via setting traps.

The show is waiting for release to synergize with the film. But Wolverine has been seen as the front man for the X-Men franchise, whether you like him or not, for much longer than there have been movies.

 

[Max Shrek]

Spoiler

To be fair, while Cyclops only gets two lines, I did feel that he wasn't stiff as a board here. He obviously sees Logan as a rival and was ready to blast him to oblivion for attacking Angel, who in the comics (and perhaps in this show) was one of the "founding" team alongside Jean and Beast.

Yes, though it's quite strange:

Spoiler

I watched some of episode 20 in Spanish, which explains Scott's backstory at the orphanage and such and we see flashbacks to the "original team" fighting Magneto, blue and yellow suits and all. What confused me is isn't Bobby supposed to be real young in this incarnation? And yet he's there in his snowy plus boots look right net to young Jean, Scott, Hank and Warren. Again, it was in Spanish, so I wasn't quite sure what was going on, but it seems like another 90s show situation where they ignore continuity in order to show the original team. (on his first apperance, Angel didn't know Xavier, but was retconned back into the founding 5).

 

[Dread]

Yes, though it's quite strange:

Spoiler

I watched some of episode 20 in Spanish, which explains Scott's backstory at the orphanage and such and we see flashbacks to the "original team" fighting Magneto, blue and yellow suits and all. What confused me is isn't Bobby supposed to be real young in this incarnation? And yet he's there in his snowy plus boots look right net to young Jean, Scott, Hank and Warren. Again, it was in Spanish, so I wasn't quite sure what was going on, but it seems like another 90s show situation where they ignore continuity in order to show the original team. (on his first apperance, Angel didn't know Xavier, but was retconned back into the founding 5).

It is true the 90's show fudged their own continuity a few times between what they did in Season 1 and being true to the comics (Cable's story also had some issues, but as he was a time-traveler, he has an excuse). I will wait until I see Episode 20 in English before judging.

Iceman was often considered the youngest of the founding five.

 

[stillanerd]

This, I think, was one of the better episodes thus far, primarily because it shows us that, like the "Future X" episode, there is much more than is initially going on. Although, I have to agree with Dread

Spoiler

Mystique revealing herself right at the moment in which the entire team had all but turned against Wolverine and thought he had snapped was a real throwaway opportunity. Although, I suppose the defense would be that since they know full well about Logan's heightened sense of smell that his saying Angel was an impostor would have been taken as gospel. Also, Emma Frost would have easily found out that Mystique was posing as Angel instantly considering her telepathic abilities. Still, it was nice to finally see some Scott/Logan friction boil to the surface, suggesting that, perhaps, Cyclops is looking for any excuse to depose Wolverine as the leader and take his rightful position--at least I'm hoping they'll go with that angle as Scott really needs work. Not to mention that the show also incorporates the logical idea that Mystique has a connection to the Weapon X project, perhaps being a former operative herself alongside Logan. I could be wrong but this might have been an idea from Ultimate X-Men.

The much better storyline was of course Nightcrawler's adventure in Genosha. The story played the idea that, while Kurt doesn't trust Magneto based on his past actions, he truly wants to believe in the apparent utopia of a society in which mutants are free to be themselves without persecution. And taken into context of the flashbacks from his first character centric episode, it's perfectly in character considering his appearance and outsider status. Also, I liked the angle of having both himself and Scarlet Witch mutally start falling for each other, hinting at a possible future pairing between the two akin to Age of Apocalypse and Nocturne from Exiles and New Excalibur. After all, how cool would that be to have the daughter of Kurt and Wanda meet Xavier and a member of Bishop's X-Men? Not to mention, it also adds a "Romeo and Juliet" story in that you have two lovers from the "rival houses" of X-Men and Magneto's Acolyte's to their Montagues and Capulets.

There were other nice touches, such as a hint towards a potential Bobby and Kitty romance akin to their Ultimate counterparts, Forge being mistaken by Iceman as Mystique (seriously, they've got to be setting Forge up to be some kind of badass in the future considering the amount of abuse he gets), the Dazzler light show in Genosha, Colossus "cameo," and another round of "spot the mutant."

All and all, things are looking up for the series.

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Mystique's strategy got everyone scrambling and looking over their shoulder at everyone not just Logan and got the team fighting amongst themselves.

 

[Dread]

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Mystique's strategy got everyone scrambling and looking over their shoulder at everyone not just Logan and got the team fighting amongst themselves.

I know, but that's so AVERAGE. That's something we've seen a million times already. They had the chance to at least play off more genuine emotion here, and instead took the generic way out. That's something that need to change if this show wants to go from good to great, to go from B grade to A grade (not that there is any shame in a B grade show, with so many C grade shows on TV, but when you have the chance for excellence, you have to GRAB it).

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't think it's a big deal. I think the point came across when the team was ready to turn on Wolverine when he was going nuts, but Wolverine acting that way generally is what causes that reaction.

I think also this episode had a great balance between the A plots and B plots and the great character work and screen time all really came off well this episode.

Note how in episode 1, Wolverine liberates Dust and Pyro from the MRD prison. We know they leave for Genosha at the end. In this episode, we see them both again in Genosha, with Pyro being a part of Magneto's guard, and Dust knowing something rotten is going on in Genosha.

This proves it's more than just a C or B grade show because those character cameos from the first episode were not just throwaway. They actually built off of those small appearances of the characters in the first episode much later on into the series. It was very Fullmetal Alchemist.

 

[Dread]

I did note how the two plots were handled and how Dust & Pyro were rescued by Wolverine in episode 1 from the MRD in my review. It still is a bit of a stretch to compare something to FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST just because it has the brains to make some cameos worth something; JLU did that, as well. GOOD shows do that. I have been saying for a while that W&TXM is a good show. But it is not yet a great show.

There also is the difference between HINTING at a dynamic and SHOWING a dynamic. Yes, the show did hint that Wolverine often acted too impulsively and that his fellow X-Men, especially Cyclops, were thus ready to believe the worst. But the dynamic was over by the time it begins, and nothing comes of it. If they can so easily assume Logan is out of control, why follow him as leader? Mystique could have really played off that, and considering Kyle & Johnson often wrote Mystique as being incredibly cunning and conniving in X-MEN EVOLUTION, I was frankly surprised they took the "movie" way out here.

The B-plot basically could have and perhaps should have been an A-plot, is perhaps a valid point.

(For the record, FMA was hardly flawless. It's one flaw, which is a major one, is at least half of their antagognists had unsatifying endings. It made some decent villains and some of them either got killed off camera by happenstance or something. Only Greed and Pride had satisfying endings. But FMA is a good show that has a flaw, which is better than a mediocre show that has moments. Creating a good villain is one thing, knowing how to give sendoff is another.)

Some shows, like SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN fly automatically and set expectations very high. Others may be like TMNT, which started out walking and moved into a trot, and jog, and then cross country sprints (at least until FAST FORWARD). WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN in contrast is going through the more traditional route of having to crawl before it walks, and walk before it runs. And that is fine so long as the progression increases along that pace.

Mystique outing herself didn't produce a bad sequence. It was quite exciting. But it had been done before in the movies and other cartoons. It could have been handled differently, given more of a twist, but aside for revealing her origins with Weapon X, there was none. Good instead of great. That isn't the same as saying something is bad. It just is something I will catch when I figure out a show is capable of being excellent when it chooses to.

 

[TheVileOne]

I did note how the two plots were handled and how Dust & Pyro were rescued by Wolverine in episode 1 from the MRD in my review. It still is a bit of a stretch to compare something to FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST just because it has the brains to make some cameos worth something; JLU did that, as well. GOOD shows do that. I have been saying for a while that W&TXM is a good show. But it is not yet a great show.

I didn't care for JLU's style with the ridiculously endlessly large team and you see Booster Gold or Vigilante talk in like one episode, or a lot of characters not actually talking at all. At least X-men actually makes these people characters.

The comaprison is that in Fullmetal Alchemist, characters would make small appearances early on and then become major characters later. One such character was Kimblee.

There also is the difference between HINTING at a dynamic and SHOWING a dynamic. Yes, the show did hint that Wolverine often acted too impulsively and that his fellow X-Men, especially Cyclops, were thus ready to believe the worst. But the dynamic was over by the time it begins, and nothing comes of it. If they can so easily assume Logan is out of control, why follow him as leader? Mystique could have really played off that, and considering Kyle & Johnson often wrote Mystique as being incredibly cunning and conniving in X-MEN EVOLUTION, I was frankly surprised they took the "movie" way out here.

Because for one thing, Wolverine was the one that had the where with all to bring the team back together in the first place.

Mystique was still pretty cunning and conniving. And besides that, they've worked in a clear emotional connection between her and Wolverine. Mystique from the way she treated Wolverine is a guy she probably is in love with. In the House of M reality, Mystique and Wolverine were a couple. In the 616 reality, Mystique and Wolverine had quite a wild past in the 20's and such. She also kidnapped Nightcrawler after he wasted all that bamf energy.

The B-plot basically could have and perhaps should have been an A-plot, is perhaps a valid point.

Or it could become an A plot later since they have 52 episodes now.

(For the record, FMA was hardly flawless. It's one flaw, which is a major one, is at least half of their antagognists had unsatifying endings. It made some decent villains and some of them either got killed off camera by happenstance or something. Only Greed and Pride had satisfying endings. But FMA is a good show that has a flaw, which is better than a mediocre show that has moments. Creating a good villain is one thing, knowing how to give sendoff is another.)

Umm, Scar and Kimblee had excellently amazing endings. Also Lust, Wrath, Sloth etc.

Some shows, like SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN fly automatically and set expectations very high. Others may be like TMNT, which started out walking and moved into a trot, and jog, and then cross country sprints (at least until FAST FORWARD). WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN in contrast is going through the more traditional route of having to crawl before it walks, and walk before it runs. And that is fine so long as the progression increases along that pace.

I don't quite understand TMNT as a measuring stick for this show. I find this show to be much less juvenile than TMNT.

Mystique outing herself didn't produce a bad sequence. It was quite exciting. But it had been done before in the movies and other cartoons. It could have been handled differently, given more of a twist, but aside for revealing her origins with Weapon X, there was none. Good instead of great. That isn't the same as saying something is bad. It just is something I will catch when I figure out a show is capable of being excellent when it chooses to.

I think Dread you go out of your way to find the flaws of this show before the positives .

 

[Dread]

I didn't care for JLU's style with the ridiculously endlessly large team and you see Booster Gold or Vigilante talk in like one episode, or a lot of characters not actually talking at all. At least X-men actually makes these people characters.

Vigilante spoke in a few episodes (at least 3) and took part in some notable fight sequences alongside his friends Shining Knight and Atom-Smasher. Booster Gold fits your point better.

The comaprison is that in Fullmetal Alchemist, characters would make small appearances early on and then become major characters later. One such character was Kimblee.

Fair enough. But FMA has had some time to settle into being what it is in the eyes of fans. Plus, it had a motion picture.

Because for one thing, Wolverine was the one that had the where with all to bring the team back together in the first place.

So? In the day-to-day leadership, all Logan does is do whatever Future X tells him to do, which any X-Man could do. Wolverine only gathered the X-Men because it was naturally how the show was coming together. I honestly never bought why Beast wasn't as inclined. Everyone else quit but Beast still hung out in the X-Lab.

Mystique was still pretty cunning and conniving. And besides that, they've worked in a clear emotional connection between her and Wolverine. Mystique from the way she treated Wolverine is a guy she probably is in love with. In the House of M reality, Mystique and Wolverine were a couple. In the 616 reality, Mystique and Wolverine had quite a wild past in the 20's and such. She also kidnapped Nightcrawler after he wasted all that bamf energy.

Yeah, Wolverine, Mystique, and Sabretooth have always had a bit of an intertwined life. I agree that Mystique was cunning overall, which was why I thought her automatic "reveal yourself the second Logan accuses you" move was a blunder. She could have gotten the X-Men to fight Wolverine a bit more. Cyclops was clearly willing.

Or it could become an A plot later since they have 52 episodes now.

Better to do a "turn the team against each other" plot sooner rather than later when bonding has happened. We are already nearing the midway point.

Umm, Scar and Kimblee had excellently amazing endings. Also Lust, Wrath, Sloth etc.

Scar I count as an anti-hero, not a villain. You're right about Sloth. Wrath I honestly didn't care for until the movie for some reason.

Lust, though, suffered what I call "The Zabuza Syndrome", named after the first of many villains NARUTO did that action with. That is, introduce the villain as someone powerful and nasty, and then at the moment they are about to earn their deserved comuppance, portray them as "tragic" to win cheap audience sympathy.

Imagine if the moment someone was about to kill the Red Skull, we got a 22 minute montage of how he was just a poor hungry thief in war-torn Germany who had no choice but to tumble down the path of Hitler's pet monster, complete with slow motion teary eyed stuff. Would anyone really give two ****'s?

For me, the time to try to make a villain sympathetic is the beginning or middle, not shortly before they die. By then my response is literally, "No, it's too late, you're a *****, I don't care how hard your life was, you have this coming." And it was a shame because before that, Lust was a good villain.

I don't quite understand TMNT as a measuring stick for this show. I find this show to be much less juvenile than TMNT.

To be fair, TMNT actually stars juveniles.

TMNT also had storyarcs, cameoes that led to better things, and a large cast.

I think Dread you go out of your way to find the flaws of this show before the positives .

Probably. There are only so many ways to say, "that was good" that it doesn't become redundant. As a bit of code, when I start summarizing entire sequences, that usually means I liked it, because I want to capture it in type.

I can write slavish love-fest reviews, but W&TXM isn't there. Yet.

 

[TheVileOne]

Lust, though, suffered what I call "The Zabuza Syndrome", named after the first of many villains NARUTO did that action with. That is, introduce the villain as someone powerful and nasty, and then at the moment they are about to earn their deserved comuppance, portray them as "tragic" to win cheap audience sympathy.

The homunculi are and should be tragic characters. Humans created them because of their own sins and shortcomings not the homunculi themselves. It's much like the Frankenstein's monster.

The other thing is, Lust's turn wasn't sudden. It was built up over the course of the show's run. This show is doing similar things with characters gradually turning one way or the other.

FMA's popularity wasn't overnight yeah, but it was pretty popular already when it first came on and then it got even more popular. The show got 51 episodes plus the OVA and the movie which was the final end of the anime storyline. Bones is currently producing a new FMA series that will rumoredly re-adapt the current manga storyline and stay on the same path as Arakawa's manga when the manga/anime originally diverged.

Imagine if the moment someone was about to kill the Red Skull, we got a 22 minute montage of how he was just a poor hungry thief in war-torn Germany who had no choice but to tumble down the path of Hitler's pet monster, complete with slow motion teary eyed stuff. Would anyone really give two ****'s?

Well to go along with this, one writer, I think it was Mark Waid in a run on Cap did a very sort of weird character study issue of Red Skull that tried to get inside the head of the Skull, and I think it basically showed his view of the world with everyone being faceless except him. It was both pretty creepy and terrifying. You might say who gives a ****, but for a one shot issue with absolutely no penciled in text or dialogue, I thought it was very effective and interesting. I think after this issue Waid's ties with Marvel were severed before he came back to do F4 with Wieringo.

 

[Dread]

The homunculi are and should be tragic characters. Humans created them because of their own sins and shortcomings not the homunculi themselves. It's much like the Frankenstein's monster.

The other thing is, Lust's turn wasn't sudden. It was built up over the course of the show's run. This show is doing similar things with characters gradually turning one way or the other.

FMA's popularity wasn't overnight yeah, but it was pretty popular already when it first came on and then it got even more popular. The show got 51 episodes plus the OVA and the movie which was the final end of the anime storyline. Bones is currently producing a new FMA series that will rumoredly re-adapt the current manga storyline and stay on the same path as Arakawa's manga when the manga/anime originally diverged.

That sounds interesting. I still think Lust's turn was a bit sudden. I do understand the Homuncoli, but that doesn't mean I felt sorry for all of them. Some of them, but not all of them. A few of them serves as means to helping make the Elrich brothers more defined or to flesh out what they did, which is fine as they are the stars.

I honestly did not want to get into a debate about FMA. It is a great series. People place it on anime top 10 lists and it deserves that placement. I just don't believe it is flawless. That doesn't make it bad, or less than terrific. Everything has a flaw. I can enjoy the hell out of a series even if I don't believe everything it did was perfect.

Well to go along with this, one writer, I think it was Mark Waid in a run on Cap did a very sort of weird character study issue of Red Skull that tried to get inside the head of the Skull, and I think it basically showed his view of the world with everyone being faceless except him. It was both pretty creepy and terrifying. You might say who gives a ****, but for a one shot issue with absolutely no penciled in text or dialogue, I thought it was very effective and interesting. I think after this issue Waid's ties with Marvel were severed before he came back to do F4 with Wieringo.

There is a difference between understanding a character and feeling sorry for a character. Some characters reach a point where sympathy nearly impossible due to current actions.

 

[TheVileOne]

Then you can at least understand Lust rather than feel sorry for her .

Villains are the most interesting compelling characters for a reason.

 

[mr. peasant]

Don't know why people seem to be putting spoiler tags when discussing events in this episode within the thread on this episode, but here's to follow the trend:

Spoiler

After watching the episode, I think it's almost for certain that we'll be seeing Wanda again. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure she'll play a big role in whenever the episode it is that Nightcrawler escapes, most likely with her helping him to.

One question I have to wonder is whether that's the last we've seen of Dust. Was the entire reason for her inclusion was simply to reveal the truth to Nightcrawler only to be quite literally forgotten in some dark dungeon? Or will she continue to play a part in this particular storyline?

 

[DMRadz]

If we're are discussing the ep, we shouldn't have to use spoiler tags. That's my opinion. Maybe there should be like the Wolverine movie. On subject spoilers and one spoiler free.

 

[TheVileOne]

We do have a non-spoiler discussion thread.

But let's be honest about one thing, just about everyone who is posting in this thread has seen the episodes we are discussing, so it sort of doesn't make sense to use tags right now.

 

[DMRadz]

So for next week and future episode threads, should we just not even bother with spoiler tags?

 

[Dread]

Don't know why people seem to be putting spoiler tags when discussing events in this episode within the thread on this episode, but here's to follow the trend:

Spoiler

After watching the episode, I think it's almost for certain that we'll be seeing Wanda again. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure she'll play a big role in whenever the episode it is that Nightcrawler escapes, most likely with her helping him to.

One question I have to wonder is whether that's the last we've seen of Dust. Was the entire reason for her inclusion was simply to reveal the truth to Nightcrawler only to be quite literally forgotten in some dark dungeon? Or will she continue to play a part in this particular storyline?

I wouldn't be surprised if Dust showed up again. WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN is willing to re-use certain side characters that pop up once or twice. Plus, she has the fact that Grant Morrison created her to add some star-power. I wonder if Armor, from Joss Whedon, will eventually pop up and get some awesome smashing sequence. We also may get more of the Academy X kids as Yost co-wrote that book for a while.

As for spoilers, sometimes posters who wish to discuss the episode wander in and complain about spoilers. They're not in the right, but sometimes some of us don't feel like dealing with the hassle.

 

[Compi716]

Is there any place I can watch this episode online?

 

[mr. peasant]

So for next week and future episode threads, should we just not even bother with spoiler tags?

I personally think we should (skip the tags) since anyone who complains about accidentally reads about events within an episode while reading a thread about said episode after it's aired is looking for trouble anyway.

 

[DMRadz]

Agreed!!

 

[shadowdog]

yeah, why would anyone read this thread if they aren't expecting to be spoilers?
What would we be talking about other than the detais of the episode in question?

 

[Dread]

Lack of spoiler tags will also mean my novella reviews WILL take a while to scroll past if you've read it already.

 

[Compi716]

Is there any place I can watch this episode online?

Anyone?