Wolverine and the X-men Episode 20 'Breakdown'

[Slim]

Scott was just so horrified that the one person who made the pain go away would leave him like his mother, father, and brother did. Him blasting him in the back wasn't justifiable, but it could be sympathetic. I did feel that Wolverine was extremely unlikable in this episode, and trying to make him honorable just made it that much worse.

I was wondering how long after Wolverine was brought to the mansion was the Scott and Logan fight? It made it seem like it was that night... maybe I should watch it again. If it was the same night, than the next day was the explosion, making Wolverine as the leader even more ridiculous.

 

[Deaths Head II]

I was wondering how long after Wolverine was brought to the mansion was the Scott and Logan fight? It made it seem like it was that night... maybe I should watch it again. If it was the same night, than the next day was the explosion, making Wolverine as the leader even more ridiculous.

I agree. They should have had a montage of scenes to make things a bit more clearer. People can say they skimmed over stuff like Scott's leadership moments or Wolverine's time at the mansion for time purposes, but the way the episode presented it there was no indication Scott was ever a leader or that Wolverine was even with the X-Men for long.

 

[HotSoup]

Agreed. A quick montage would've done wonders for this episode.

Him blasting him in the back wasn't justifiable, but it could be sympathetic. I did feel that Wolverine was extremely unlikable in this episode, and trying to make him honorable just made it that much worse.

Personally, I would have liked it very much if they had done the Scott/Logan confrontation more like the spat that they had in earlier issues of Ultimate X-men. At least it wouldn't have cast Logan as Mr.Right and Scott as Mr.Wrong.

 

[warmachine300]

Very true. People shouldn't just assume. And making comic book references is also kinda pointless because this was never about giving an exact comic book interpretation. The contents are there to use, play and manipulate with as they please. Overall, this show is very good and a step up from its predecessors. I'm just gonna wait for the final 3 episodes to give my complete conclusion.

 

[bryanss3]

Very true. People shouldn't just assume. And making comic book references is also kinda pointless because this was never about giving an exact comic book interpretation. The contents are there to use, play and manipulate with as they please. Overall, this show is very good and a step up from its predecessors. I'm just gonna wait for the final 3 episodes to give my complete conclusion.

very true most of the argument that happened on here was sparked from saying "we don't care for this interpretation and it was disappointing" no one condemned the show, no one said I'm never gonna watch another episode. We simply made that statement and we were basically told our opinion is wrong. and that is how most fights get started on message boards. lol

 

[Dread]

Logan behaved like a jerk to Scott so of course he deserved to be shot in the back. He completely undermined his relationship with Jean. And its not that Logan is happy to lead the team remember this is Xaviers idea. Maybe Xavier should have shown Scott a bit more compassion but I he was looking at the bigger picture. Theres far more at stake than Scotts crushed pride. And its not like Logan is incapable of leading a team. He just doesn't want to. I think this show is turning out to be remarkable, the last 8 episodes have been great. My problem is with the character developement. Like I mentioned in the 'Backlash' post characters like Storm, Beast and Iceman are being left behind. Storm especially has been severely short changed. And for someone like Storm who is a massive iconic figure. Its just not acceptable. I still don't know fully who she is. Its like the writers has taken her and a few others for granted assuming because they are now quite notoriously known we should know who they are. Well maybe so. But to me WAX she doesn't have a voice and her contribution is minimal. In X-Men Evolution Storm's roles was not as prominent as say Jeans or Rogues but every time she came on you had a definite sense of who she was. As with all the evolution characters. As much as I like the storylines in WAX they need to make sure other characters are not being left in the dirt. Okay so Wolverine, is leading the team. Thats fine. But others characters need a lifeline too. They should go back to their brilliant work on Evolution and really study what made it soo great and then I think this show will be a bit better. But its already improving anyway.

I agree with a lot of this. As I have said in prior posts in this topic and some others, W&TXM is sacrificing character development and interaction for their complicated storyline. That may be what fans of the movies and the comics are used to, but usually an odd focus episode now and then can't fully plug that gap.

For instance, it would have been interesting how some of the "first class" with Jean and Scott felt about everything or how they interacted with him or deal with Jean's loss. Beast and Iceman had very little imput; ever since the roster of the X-Men has expanded past episode 5 or so, Beast has had less of a role as he did in the first 4 episodes. Interaction within many episodes can more than cover simply one or two focus episodes if it is consistent. But usually every episode is so "busy" trying to check off events that have to happen to satisfying the long term plot, that some of this is sacrificed.

Evolution in contrast had less to cover per episode so there was more time for interaction. A shame this season wasn't better able to better balance the storyline with the character depth.

I'm gonna use this to segway into something I've been thinking about this shows plot. The entire plot for this show is kind of absur. Charles Xavier is a responsible person and should know that if you don't like the future(which he is in) altering the past even if it is possible to do is one of the most irresponsible ways to make a change its unpredictable and as we all know will result in something much worse. I don't know why they chose this for a plot. They've done a lot of good stuff with it, but it is a very strange plot to really drive a show on.

To be fair, this sort of plot was done quite often in the 90's X-Men series. Bishop kept coming into the past (always dated as the 1990's) to try to undo his terrible future of 2055. Cable, who hailed from the further future of 3999, came back having to ensure his future occurred in later episodes and also went on his own time adventures. Time travel plots were also common in many comics, including Grant Morrison's run that ended in 2005.

While there are always variables that get in the way, Future X probably feels it is better to at least try to prevent the world of "20 years in the future" than to allow his X-Men to blindly stagger into it. Of course, if time truly can't be changed, then there is no way to prevent it. It depends on what Kyle, Johnson, and Yost feel about time. If they believe time is linear, then nothing will really prevent it. If they believe in a "split" time theory that any alterations or travel simply allow one central timeline to remain uneffected and result in alternate separate timelines, which is how the Marvel Universe works, then Future X's actions will at least ensure that his future doesn't have to exist in at least one timeline.

I really don't see how flirting with Jean makes Logan worthy of getting shot in the back. Especially since he turned his back because he wasn't willing to fight Scott. That was just a cheap shot, plain and simple.

Logan didn't even try try as hard to get with Jean, nor does he care about her as much as he does in the comics. Here it felt more like he was just checking the goods instead of developing a strong attraction. But this Cyclops explodes at Logan more then any other version of Cyclops has ever done. Wolverine was always the one who wanted to fight with Cyclops and trying to egg him on. Cyclops always kept his cool and was the bigger man. There was a reason why Wolverine was made short in the comics. A guy with his attitude at a large height just comes off as a bully. Now that Scott has that aspect of Logan, he comes off as exactly that. But I doubt even the early comics Wolverine would do anything as dishonorable as hitting an opponent while his back is turned.

No, Wolverine didn't. The worst he used to do in the early comics was consider during a mission "allowing" a threat to kill Cyclops to free up Jean usually a split second before Wolverine would decide it "wasn't his style" and help Cyke anyway. He never backstabbed Cyclops and always wanted a fair fight between them, if it came to that.

In Ultimate X-Men, however, Mark Millar had Wolverine deliberately leave Cyclops to die in the Savage Land, lie to Jean about the circumstances, and then bed her. Cyclops was saved by the Brotherhood and managed to aid the team in the final battle against Magneto before settling his score with Logan. That was in "RETURN OF THE KING", Millar's last arc on the title before he left it after a good three year launch run (which only had a 2 issue writing fill in, where Austin brought in Ultimate Gambit).

But, yes, this show is the first time Cyclops is being shown somewhere as being the one who started the conflict, and continues it. There is no way to justify blasting Logan in the back like that, or in subsequent episodes of the series after Jean told Scott that Logan promised her he wouldn't fight back. It implies that Scott is an insecure bully. Proving Logan's points about being "jealous" or "unworthy of Jean" for him. Jealous, obsessed men who pick on smaller ones when challenged and continue to fight them even when the smaller one is unwilling do not make ideal boyfriends. He started the fight with Logan, and he zapped Logan in the back when Logan was trying to be the bigger man and not fight over Jean. The problem is that while Wolverine can still have some appeal or sympathy when he is a selfish jerk, Cyclops struggles in that role, much as Spider-Man doesn't fit as a wife beater (when he did hit MJ in the comics).

Scott was just so horrified that the one person who made the pain go away would leave him like his mother, father, and brother did. Him blasting him in the back wasn't justifiable, but it could be sympathetic. I did feel that Wolverine was extremely unlikable in this episode, and trying to make him honorable just made it that much worse.

I was wondering how long after Wolverine was brought to the mansion was the Scott and Logan fight? It made it seem like it was that night... maybe I should watch it again. If it was the same night, than the next day was the explosion, making Wolverine as the leader even more ridiculous.

Noting how much time was passing was one of the other niggles against the episode. I don't assume it was very long, though.

very true most of the argument that happened on here was sparked from saying "we don't care for this interpretation and it was disappointing" no one condemned the show, no one said I'm never gonna watch another episode. We simply made that statement and we were basically told our opinion is wrong. and that is how most fights get started on message boards. lol

Basically.

 

[Panthro]

You know, looking back at it, I think I would have preferred Cyclops having his memories of Jean erased and have Jean wake up with all her memories still intact and watch her react to a Cyclops who doesn't know her. Might have actually given us a chance to see the relationship (if you can call it that) from her POV.

Mind wiping Cycke might have also set up some good additional friction between Emma Frost and the other X-Men. Surely Wolverine, who had his own memories tampered with against his will, would be disturbed to find that anyone would be that determined to escape personal grief that he would agree to have the most personal memories of his life removed. Emma could have countered any potential criticism by pointing out that the X-Men hadn't done diddly squat to help Cyclops and that she had no choice but to intervene. Perhaps she could even insinuate that certain X-Men may have liked seeing Cycke that way.

Oh well. Missed opportunities abound.

 

[Dread]

You have a decent argument but I am not sure I would have enjoyed Cyclops' memories of Jean being erased. That would have made Frost seem more devious; despite her comic history, in this show I wouldn't have considered her a real "villain". She wasn't as "white hat" as some of the X-Men but she wasn't nearly as "black hat" as the Inner Circle. Turning Cyclops into her brain-wiped love slave, even at his own behest, may not have worked. Cyclops, whether in the comics or here, needed Jean to be who he was; in a way she always accepted him more than the other X-Men. While taking that to a morbid obsession level is a bit far, so is removing it. Cyclops without Jean might have had no compassion or mercy, no sense of goodness in life. Especially when Xavier would often fail him.

I do agree that Jean was handled awkwardly since we rarely see her as she is for long. We only meet her through fragmented memories and when she has amnesia, and then a lot of the rest is her screaming. In many ways things would have been easier had she been the one to "sacrifice" at the end of the season, but I suppose there always is the possibility she could be akin to Gwen Stacy in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN; a character whose roads don't have to all lead to death if she is written well. Season 2 at least awaits her, and I think Jennifer Hale plays her well.

To be honest I don't think the X-Men's seeming non-involvement in trying to, eh, "soothe" Cyclops was a deliberate act by the writers, like I don't think they sat in a room and went, "and so all the X-Men, even Beast and Iceman the founders, don't care if Scott sulks in a room all day". I just think they were so focused on the plot/action bits that some characterization was sacrificed, perhaps unwittingly. That said, in it's way "Breakdown" was a risky episode, since there is little action and it's all flashback, and that's for someone who isn't Wolverine (or Nightcrawler). That said, whether non deliberate or not, it was a shame and it kept Season 1 from "greatness" for me. When an A is possible, settling for a B can be irritating.

"Breakdown" for me would have worked better had it established that Cyclops was a capable leader and X-Man before Wolverine came along and screwed up his life. Because as things were laid out, it gave the impression that Cyclops was a freak as a civilian, a borderline wash-out as an X-Man who needed Jean to hold him by the hand and do everything for him, and then the first time that dynamic is challenged by Wolverine, he handles it like a petty spoiled brat. That's not sympathetic. It may be "interesting", but it's not sympathetic, and I don't think Cyclops works if you can't feel sympathy for him. I don't feel a bad childhood is justification to screw up in a professional life or to handle things poorly in the future. It may be a reason, but not a justification.

That said, I suppose it could have been interesting if Wolverine found out that Scott at least considered the option of a mind-wipe to get around his pain. And that Frost personally offered one, not out of control but sympathy. As someone who was mind-wiped out of control, without a choice, his reaction could have been interesting.

 

[Panthro]

You have a decent argument but I am not sure I would have enjoyed Cyclops' memories of Jean being erased. That would have made Frost seem more devious; despite her comic history, in this show I wouldn't have considered her a real "villain". She wasn't as "white hat" as some of the X-Men but she wasn't nearly as "black hat" as the Inner Circle. Turning Cyclops into her brain-wiped love slave, even at his own behest, may not have worked. Cyclops, whether in the comics or here, needed Jean to be who he was; in a way she always accepted him more than the other X-Men. While taking that to a morbid obsession level is a bit far, so is removing it. Cyclops without Jean might have had no compassion or mercy, no sense of goodness in life. Especially when Xavier would often fail him.

Well to each their own. I think it might have been interesting to see how the lack of Jean would have effected Cyclops, it is entirely possible that it might have turned him into a completely heartless, ruthless bastard, and the reactions that would have garnered all around, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see something like that next season with the AoA storyline.

I'd like to think Emma is too clever to turn Cycke into her "mind wiped love slave" right off the bat. If Cycke did start showing signs of being attracted to her post-mind wipe, Emma could have argued the attraction was already there and removing his "morbid obsession" with Jean simply freed him up to realize it more fully.

Out of curiosity Dread, do you prefer Emma as characterized in the comics or Emma as characterized in this particular series?

I do agree that Jean was handled awkwardly since we rarely see her as she is for long. We only meet her through fragmented memories and when she has amnesia, and then a lot of the rest is her screaming.

It could have been handled better.

In many ways things would have been easier had she been the one to "sacrifice" at the end of the season, but I suppose there always is the possibility she could be akin to Gwen Stacy in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN; a character whose roads don't have to all lead to death if she is written well. Season 2 at least awaits her, and I think Jennifer Hale plays her well.

Well, you can never go wrong with Jennifer Hale. t: This is what, the fourth Marvel series she's worked on? She voiced Felicia Hardy/Black Cat on the 90s Spider-Man (amazing that she was cast as the blonde in that series instead of the red head), voiced MJ for the Spider-Man series that followed where Spidey was stranded on some other world (restoring the red head theme), was the 2nd voice of Julia Carpenter/Spider-Woman for the 90s Iron Man, and here of course we have her as Jean Grey.

To be honest I don't think the X-Men's seeming non-involvement in trying to, eh, "soothe" Cyclops was a deliberate act by the writers, like I don't think they sat in a room and went, "and so all the X-Men, even Beast and Iceman the founders, don't care if Scott sulks in a room all day". I just think they were so focused on the plot/action bits that some characterization was sacrificed, perhaps unwittingly. That said, in it's way "Breakdown" was a risky episode, since there is little action and it's all flashback, and that's for someone who isn't Wolverine (or Nightcrawler). That said, whether non deliberate or not, it was a shame and it kept Season 1 from "greatness" for me. When an A is possible, settling for a B can be irritating.

Perhaps it was done unwittingly. We may never know.

"Breakdown" for me would have worked better had it established that Cyclops was a capable leader and X-Man before Wolverine came along and screwed up his life. Because as things were laid out, it gave the impression that Cyclops was a freak as a civilian, a borderline wash-out as an X-Man who needed Jean to hold him by the hand and do everything for him, and then the first time that dynamic is challenged by Wolverine, he handles it like a petty spoiled brat. That's not sympathetic. It may be "interesting", but it's not sympathetic, and I don't think Cyclops works if you can't feel sympathy for him. I don't feel a bad childhood is justification to screw up in a professional life or to handle things poorly in the future. It may be a reason, but not a justification.

No argument here. Or perhaps something, anything, to suggest that Cyclops actually grew up and didn't need Jean or Xavier to coddle him.

That said, I suppose it could have been interesting if Wolverine found out that Scott at least considered the option of a mind-wipe to get around his pain. And that Frost personally offered one, not out of control but sympathy. As someone who was mind-wiped out of control, without a choice, his reaction could have been interesting.

Indeed it could have.

While having a polite disagreement with another user, ojosbizcos, on another forum (and it was surprisingly polite), I encountered what is probably the best counter argument one can offer on this particular episode. Cut & pasted -

I don't think you give Cyclops much credit. He's not my favorite character, but I'll defend him anyway. Yes, he needed Jean to get him out of his slump, but any human needs a reward to change behavior. To say Jean was his cure was misguided. She was only the motivation. And boy, did she motivate him. A girl, for some reason, is always more motivating than some old man's dream.

Magneto had his own motivation: It was revenge. He didn't want any other mutant to suffer like his parents did in the WWII camps. Becoming the rallying anti-hero, sure, it's more ambitious than leading the X-Men, but you can't say Cyclops didn't put in the same efforts that Magneto did. He went from being a laughing stock to being the leader, as opposed to Beast, who was the strongest (before Rogue and Colossus came along), smartest, and most agile of the original five X-Men. Cyclops, I assume, must have had something that the others didn't (not just because he was Xavier's favorite).

His hesitance in shooting Magneto in the episode was because he values human live, unlike Magneto who was shooting (metal rods) to kill. If Cyclops, sans visor, opened his eyes, he could of shot anything, maybe killing innocent bystanders hiding in the buildings. And Cyclops, in such a vulnerable spot, practically blind, could have been dealt a death blow, yet, he still refused to open his eyes. He didn't want to kill Magneto, though he could have with one shot with out his visor. He just wanted to immobilize Magneto; hence, Jean coming in to control his power. Isn't that the stuff of heroes? To sacrifice oneself for the benefit of others.

I commend ojosbizcos for offering this rebuttal (which was originally longer but I went with the points that pertained most to this overall episode), but I still feel this doesn't change the overall problem with the episode or the problem with the overall characterization of Cyclops within this series, which is that he's never shown to have been a strong, competent leader and has very little in the way of positive qualities. Whatever he had that resulted in him becoming the leader, and I'm assuming it's the ability to observe, analyze, strategize & then act very quickly & calmly, it was never shown. If the idea was to make him an unlikely hero, it wasn't executed well.

 

[Dread]

Well to each their own. I think it might have been interesting to see how the lack of Jean would have effected Cyclops, it is entirely possible that it might have turned him into a completely heartless, ruthless bastard, and the reactions that would have garnered all around, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see something like that next season with the AoA storyline.

Possibly.

I'd like to think Emma is too clever to turn Cycke into her "mind wiped love slave" right off the bat. If Cycke did start showing signs of being attracted to her post-mind wipe, Emma could have argued the attraction was already there and removing his "morbid obsession" with Jean simply freed him up to realize it more fully.

I just don't think having Frost remove memories of Jean would have been something I'd wanted to see. It was already obvious how much her memory meant to him; showing him without them would do little to prove a point that was already made. Honestly the riskier thing would have been to have Cyclops move beyond Jean without mind control or memory erasing.

Out of curiosity Dread, do you prefer Emma as characterized in the comics or Emma as characterized in this particular series?

To be fair, the writers of this show had hindsight that the various writers of the comics didn't have. Also, while Grant Morrison is often given credit for putting Frost on the X-Men and pairing her with Cyclops, her "path away from villainy" began in the mid-90's when she founded Generation X alongside Banshee. That said, some of her earlier appearances painted her as such a "witch" that I always had a hard time buying her as being more altruistic. In fact many GEN-X stories played on that. This cartoon had the advantage of starting from scratch so while Wolverine stated in exposition that she used to be a "rival" of the X-Men ("training mutants to be bullies" or whatnot), she didn't come off as a villain at all. A shade of grey, sure, but not evil. It helped to build sympathy for her by the end. Despite all she did to the X-Men, she did it out of the Circle's supposed purpose to eliminate the Phoenix. When her peers decided they would rather control it for their own power, she turned on them. And, of course, because liked Scott's beam.

It could have been handled better.

Execution was the big stumbling block of Season 1 overall. The show had a lot of fine story and ideas but some of the execution, especially when it came to inter personal stuff, was spotty. Not bad; even the worst episodes of this season are better than some episodes of, say, THE BATMAN I could list. It did seem like inter-character stuff was often lower on a list of things below action and story points.

Well, you can never go wrong with Jennifer Hale. t: This is what, the fourth Marvel series she's worked on? She voiced Felicia Hardy/Black Cat on the 90s Spider-Man (amazing that she was cast as the blonde in that series instead of the red head), voiced MJ for the Spider-Man series that followed where Spidey was stranded on some other world (restoring the red head theme), was the 2nd voice of Julia Carpenter/Spider-Woman for the 90s Iron Man, and here of course we have her as Jean Grey.

You were referring to SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED, where Jennifer Hale voiced Mary Jane in the pilot and then Lady Vermin in other episodes, circa 1999. She also had a guest role as a reporter in the MTV SPIDER-MAN cartoon. She's a prolific voice actress, doing a slew of animation, including for JUSTICE LEAGUE as well.

That IRON MAN cartoon, namely Season 2, is basically why I like Julia Carpenter.

No argument here. Or perhaps something, anything, to suggest that Cyclops actually grew up and didn't need Jean or Xavier to coddle him.

There was actually a period quickly into Claremont's run in the late 70's that started onto this sort of route. Jean had become Phoenix and was slowly becoming more detached from Cyclops, with him barely recognizing her anymore. He and Xavier also had some rather nasty arguments during this time (in one issue when Cyclops refuses to leave Jean's bedside to help the X-Men, who were in another country, Xavier all but literally calls him an "ungrateful, unspeakable cur" and laying out the, "I took you in" card). There have been periods where he moved on past the two and some where he didn't.

While having a polite disagreement with another user, ojosbizcos, on another forum (and it was surprisingly polite), I encountered what is probably the best counter argument one can offer on this particular episode. Cut & pasted -


I commend ojosbizcos for offering this rebuttal (which was originally longer but I went with the points that pertained most to this overall episode), but I still feel this doesn't change the overall problem with the episode or the problem with the overall characterization of Cyclops within this series, which is that he's never shown to have been a strong, competent leader and has very little in the way of positive qualities. Whatever he had that resulted in him becoming the leader, and I'm assuming it's the ability to observe, analyze, strategize & then act very quickly & calmly, it was never shown. If the idea was to make him an unlikely hero, it wasn't executed well.

Indeed. The show's largest problem was it went to shock us with the destruction of the status quo, after only showing us under 5 minutes of said status quo. Yes, audiences are familiar with the generic set up of an X-Men show after 3 films and two animated series, but this particular show is different. The continuity like any cartoon show is unique and the writers pick and choose what they use from comics, past cartoons, movies, etc. I honestly believe had an episode been devoted to said status quo, maybe making "Hindsight" 4 parts instead of 3 and having this chapter at the start, would have helped. It would have defeated the SLAM-BANG sense of the pilot, but it also would have helped us see where the X-Men had fallen from. That of course would have meant an episode would have had to been eliminated from the rest of the season; beyond the novelty, "Wolverine vs. The Hulk" was not needed this season (especially with a superior DTV starring the same voice talent on shelves). In some ways it could have set up the show's subplots better. You have an episode where Cyclops is the leader, Wolverine the rebel, Jean is there, and so on. Maybe a shadowy figure haunts the gates before the credits (who we later learn is Frost). Instead the "destruction of the X-Men" IS the status quo and the pace of the show at times seems awkward. We only learn how things have changed through one or two flashbacks, which is almost like shorthand.

I've seen "Breakdown" probably about 3 times by now and I still want to like it, and it has a lot going for it. But much like "X-Cessive Force", things seem to fall apart a little in the third act, and this episode is no exception. The only "out" for this episode is that Frost states that Scott is the one subconsciously leading the mental tour; therefore, being full of self doubt and loathing, he could have omitted large sections of history in favor of focusing on the bits with Jean and his own failures. Still, that is a little flimsy and the fact that we rarely see Cyclops really "at his best" beyond when he occasionally blasts Marauders hurt some angles of it. The show had quite a few moments where they wanted to stamp Logan as "superior" and they were always awkward.

Season 2, of course, is a year or so away and hopefully these angles have been improved upon. If the writing steps up we could be in for a treat.

 

[VideoMaker]

lol omg ^^

 

[Panthro]

I wonder what Nolan North thought of this episode when he recorded it...