Oh you Smoke? Employers getting strict on hiring Smokers.

[Bowie]

I love to smoke.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Anita. i made the arguement already. Can of worms. Tobacco is a legal drug. If you want to discrimate, the correct thing to do is make Tobacco illegal in that state.

These are private companies, not governments. I've already explained why this doesn't qualify as discrimination.

Your argument has no legs.

 

[moviedoors]

A Limited Government.

Unless it's a state government, right? The federal government better stay out of my life, but if a state wants to do it, that's just hunky dory.

Libertarians lose me here.

 

[enterthemadness]

These are private companies, not governments. I've already explained why this doesn't qualify as discrimination.

Your argument has no legs.

Okay. What's stopping these private companies and other businesses from doing the same to legal drugs? Alcohol and caffeine? Or in Colorado and Washington? Weed is legal there, but what if companies want to ya know...not hire pot heads and/or piss test on being hired. It's gonna get to a point where Tobacco is still legal (on paper), but illegal at a lot of places where you work/state wise. We are heading that way. I don't want to head that way, but if we are gonna do it, then...you can't legalize weed. Might as well decimalize it, but not legalize it. I am gonna get a lot of flack for this, but as a Libertarian, I can no longer be for drug legalization if we are gonna start treating smokers like this. I can't.

Unless it's a state government, right? The federal government better stay out of my life, but if a state wants to do it, that's just hunky dory.

Libertarians lose me here.

I know! And I am Libertarian! I'm at a crossroads. It is like picking lesser of two evils again. Fed or State Govt, pick your poison.

I must say this thread/discussion is making me think about my views.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Okay. What's stopping these private companies and other businesses from doing the same to legal drugs? Alcohol and caffeine?

Nothing. But one might argue that there's no incentive to put similar restrictions on caffeine use: caffeine only has costly health effects if it's severely abused, and increases productivity in the short term. These measures will have to take into account both long-term medical costs as well as practical considerations.

I think your worries about caffeine are silly and unfounded, personally.

Or in Colorado and Washington? Weed is legal there, but what if companies want to ya know...not hire pot heads and/or piss test on being hired.

I don't know what you though was going to happen, but yeah, companies will still have the right to refuse to hire you if you test positive for marijuana in those states. And they should have that right.

That's freedom. You Libertarians are all about that ****.

 

[enterthemadness]

Nothing. But one might argue that there's no incentive to put similar restrictions on caffeine use: caffeine only has costly health effects if it's severely abused, and increases productivity in the short term. These measures will have to take into account both long-term medical costs as well as practical considerations.

I think your worries about caffeine are silly and unfounded, personally.

I don't know what you though was going to happen, but yeah, companies will still have the right to refuse to hire you if you test positive for marijuana in those states. And they should have that right.

That's freedom. You Libertarians are all about that ****.

Well, I watched a good movie long ago. Eyeborgs. About these tiny and big robots that watched humans. Big Govt style. In that movie, Tobacco was the new Weed, meaning Tobacco was a no-no. And it was hinted that caffeine would be next. Also, Demolition Man had restrictions like that. Then I got to thinking on the issue, and well, I got here on my views.

If they have that right, then like I said...I'm gonna get heat. But weed should not be legal in those states. No one should go to prison for being on drugs if they are not harming anyone or any animal while high. I guess, I am now for decimalization. No one should also be turned away from a job because of what they do in their personal life, if it's only their own body they are harming. If this is how it's gonna be, there is no part in making it legal. But you decimalize it, so no one goes to jail/prison. If businesses want to not hire people because they are on drugs then, I guess that is fine. Because no one is gonna go to jail/prison for being on a drug, they just won't be hired. It just be a health issue, not a criminal issue.

Let's review. I just said a business can do this, but not if the drug is legal. Legal drugs, can't piss test for them, can't turn a person away. It's legal. If you want to do piss testing or turn a person away from a job, then the drug should at best be a decimalize drug. At worst case, still illegal.

 

[moviedoors]

Let's review. I just said a business can do this, but not if the drug is legal. Legal drugs, can't piss test for them, can't turn a person away. It's legal. If you want to do piss testing or turn a person away from a job, then the drug should at best be a decimalize drug. At worst case, still illegal.

So you like freedom when it's about you getting high, but you don't like freedom when it entails a business owner hiring who they think they should hire. So, essentially, you're for government regulation. You like freedom that benefits you, but you don't want to take the lumps that that freedom would afford others. I think you need to rethink your staunch Libertarianism.

 

[enterthemadness]

So you like freedom when it's about you getting high, but you don't like freedom when it entails a business owner hiring who they think they should hire. So, essentially, you're for government regulation. You like freedom that benefits you, but you don't want to take the lumps that that freedom would afford others. I think you need to rethink your staunch Libertarianism.

I have never used weed, because it's illegal. I've only used legal drugs. Tobaccoo, via smoking it and dipping it. Caffeine. And Booze. Along with over the counter and prescription drugs for when being sick or have a headache. Nothing no-no about that.

I just said, a business can have the right to do this, if the drug is illegal or decriminalized. If it's a legal drug, the business cannot turn you away for what you do in you personal life. They can not piss test you and fire you for using a legal drug.

Federally, States, Businesses should not have the power to turn you away for using a legal drug. Or to piss test you on the grounds for using a legal drug. If they want this power to not hire you or to piss test you, decrimalzation if way to go or let the drugs still be illegal.

 

[moviedoors]

I have never used weed, because it's illegal. I've only used legal drugs. Tobaccoo, via smoking it and dipping it. Caffeine. And Booze. Along with over the counter and prescription drugs for when being sick or have a headache. Nothing no-no about that.

I just said, a business can have the right to do this, if the drug is illegal or decriminalized. If it's a legal drug, the business cannot turn you away for what you do in you personal life. They can not piss test you and fire you for using a legal drug.

Federally, States, Businesses should not have the power to turn you away for using a legal drug. Or to piss test you on the grounds for using a legal drug. If they want this power to not hire you or to piss test you, decrimalzation if way to go or let the drugs still be illegal.

I'm just not seeing much internal consistency here. A free market Libertarian would be in favor of letting businesses hire based on their own discretion.

 

[Anita18]

So you like freedom when it's about you getting high, but you don't like freedom when it entails a business owner hiring who they think they should hire. So, essentially, you're for government regulation. You like freedom that benefits you, but you don't want to take the lumps that that freedom would afford others. I think you need to rethink your staunch Libertarianism.

Nobody is forcing you to "get hired" anywhere. My fiance freelances from home, beholden to no company. Nobody who hires him as a contractor asks for a background check, because he never sets foot inside a company building. He could code in his underwear and nobody would fire him.

If you want to work at a company and get benefits, there are strings attached. If you don't like it, there are other options. If you don't have the ability to have any of the other options (ie, work from home), get off your duff and work for it. My fiance didn't learn what he does for work from school. He spent his free time learning it. You can't always get what you want - there's always sacrifices and work to be done.

Options. Choices. That's real freedom.

 

[enterthemadness]

I'm just not seeing much internal consistency here. A free market Libertarian would be in favor of letting businesses hire based on their own discretion.

Can of worms. I've kept saying it. First it's the Tobacco, then it's booze and caffeine.

I've also said there is no point in making weed legal if you let states and or businesses flat out say they won't hire weed users. It's legal in two states on paper, but it really isn't legal at all. Businesses can say we won't hire you for using a legal drug or is we suspect you use it at all on your free time. Therefore, weed usage goes down or is outright gone. Thus making it defacto illegal.

Example: Let's say one day North Carolina says it will let businesses have the option of not hiring smokers and/or drug test for Tobacco. From smoking, dipping, chewing, and even e-cigarette. What will logically happen is it in fact becomes illegal to use Tobacco, even though it's legal to use the products, if NO ONE is gonna hire you. Even if you lie in the interview...if they drug test you...oh well...

Yes, I honestly believe once you let a business have a taste of this power, they will move onto other things.

Like at State Farm. If you even have a ''interest'' in racing of any short...autocross, drag, etc. Your insurance goes up.

 

[moviedoors]

Can of worms. I've kept saying it. First it's the Tobacco, then it's booze and caffeine.

An idea you got from Eyeborgs, of all movies. Are you sure you don't do illegal drugs?

I've also said there is no point in making weed legal if you let states and or businesses flat out say they won't hire weed users. It's legal in two states on paper, but it really isn't legal at all. Businesses can say we won't hire you for using a legal drug or is we suspect you use it at all on your free time. Therefore, weed usage goes down or is outright gone. Thus making it defacto illegal.

Example: Let's say one day North Carolina says it will let businesses have the option of not hiring smokers and/or drug test for Tobacco. From smoking, dipping, chewing, and even e-cigarette. What will logically happen is it in fact becomes illegal to use Tobacco, even though it's legal to use the products, if NO ONE is gonna hire you. Even if you lie in the interview...if they drug test you...oh well...

Yes, I honestly believe once you let a business have a taste of this power, they will move onto other things.

Like at State Farm. If you even have a ''interest'' in racing of any short...autocross, drag, etc. Your insurance goes up.

But that's the Libertarian position, and I thought you toed that party line like any good partisan does.

 

[Matt Mortem]

My only issue with smokers in the workplace is when they demand special treatment. I managed a dollar store a few years ago and the smokers on my staff demanded extra breaks because if they didn't smoke right then and there they couldn't make it through the day. I had one assistant manager and cashier take three smoke breaks in an hour and a half. That's not OK

 

[Anita18]

Can of worms. I've kept saying it. First it's the Tobacco, then it's booze and caffeine.

I've also said there is no point in making weed legal if you let states and or businesses flat out say they won't hire weed users. It's legal in two states on paper, but it really isn't legal at all. Businesses can say we won't hire you for using a legal drug or is we suspect you use it at all on your free time. Therefore, weed usage goes down or is outright gone. Thus making it defacto illegal.

Uhh, no. You could FREELANCE or be RETIRED and smoke weed all you want. My fiance has never had people ask if he smoked. They don't care. He's not on their insurance.

Illegal means you won't get ARRESTED if you use it. Different matter entirely.

 

[enterthemadness]

Nobody is forcing you to "get hired" anywhere. My fiance freelances from home, beholden to no company. Nobody who hires him as a contractor asks for a background check, because he never sets foot inside a company building. He could code in his underwear and nobody would fire him.

If you want to work at a company and get benefits, there are strings attached. If you don't like it, there are other options. If you don't have the ability to have any of the other options (ie, work from home), get off your duff and work for it. My fiance didn't learn what he does for work from school. He spent his free time learning it. You can't always get what you want - there's always sacrifices and work to be done.

Options. Choices. That's real freedom.

Yes, but you honestly don't believe once one company says no to hiring people who smoke...and they see the very cool $$$ results, other companies won't start doing it? I can easily see Walmart, Target, Best Buy going 100% Tobacco free. And drug testing twice a year or so to weed out any violators.

Most or nearly all Libertarians basically want Big Govt to give their power to the states or businesses.

Although lets say when (random number) 85% of the workforce won't hire you because you do a LEGAL drug, said LEGAL drug should go down in price.

Another example is this...

Business A and Business B make a lot of money. But insurance is going up in 2014. Business A decides to have a power trip, thinking it can handle it, and decides to make it illegal to work for them if you use Tobacco along with other drugs that are a no-no. Business B laughs at them and calls them losers and doesn't invite them to the movies anymore.

After a year of saving money on it's insurance and a bit of public backlash, Business A is happy overall with it's choice. Business B sees this and decides to also ban the hiring of people who smoke Tobacco, even though it is legal to use the product in the state.

A few years down the road Business A and Business B make more decisions. They decide they want to hire really healthy people from now on. So both put out a press release saying they won't hire people who drink ALCOHOL and will randomly drug test twice a year.

 

[Anita18]

I don't see a problem with it if it saves them money. That's what businesses do - make money. They aren't there for kumbaya equality stuff that governments are supposed to be in charge of.

If you don't like it, don't work for them. Be a contractor. Buy your own health insurance. You DO have choices. Everyone has choices. Smoking and drinking are legal, but they ARE expensive to treat if you suffer negative health effects. Nobody wants to pay for such treatments themselves - they want to pass it onto their insurance. Well, nothing ever comes free. Might as well start to be responsible for paying for your own medical treatment if you insist on making yourself sick.

 

[enterthemadness]

An idea you got from Eyeborgs, of all movies. Are you sure you don't do illegal drugs?


But that's the Libertarian position, and I thought you toed that party line like any good partisan does.

I said I watched the movie, then I started thinking about it over the years. Yes, I'm sure I don't do illegal drugs. Various reasons why I don't.

Uhh, no. You could FREELANCE or be RETIRED and smoke weed all you want. My fiance has never had people ask if he smoked. They don't care. He's not on their insurance.

Illegal means you won't get ARRESTED if you use it. Different matter entirely.

Ok, fair point. Not everybody can freelance though.

I didn't know this. Illegal means you won't get arrested if you use it. Use it, meaning if people use weed, they don't get arrested? So are all these stoners getting arrested for possession, and not usage then? So people get arrested before they can even get high? Makes no sense...

 

[Anita18]

Ok, fair point. Not everybody can freelance though.

Sure you can. Depends on your ability and what you want to do.

My fiance didn't major in his current field. He worked full-time and then spent his evenings learning how to program. He didn't sit on his duff and wait for opportunities to come to him. He worked hard. This is what the country was founded on.

Sure most people don't have the interest or aptitude to code, but there will always be a need for handymen or plumbers and the like.

You might not get rich and you won't get stock options, but you'll be able to live how you like.

You just don't want that choice because that means taking charge of your own life, ETM. You'd rather sit back and be told what to do by a higher up, and then get paid. Which is fine. I sometimes prefer that kind of stability rather than freelancing, which is scary. But that means putting up with the crap of the higher ups.

 

[enterthemadness]

I don't see a problem with it if it saves them money. That's what businesses do - make money. They aren't there for kumbaya equality stuff that governments are supposed to be in charge of.

If you don't like it, don't work for them. Be a contractor. Buy your own health insurance. You DO have choices. Everyone has choices.

Okay, nuclear option.

Let's say Tobacco still is legal...40 years from now and every other drug also is...but 100% of the work force doesn't hire people who use drugs.

What is the point then of making drugs legal, if businesses in turn says we won't hire you? The only way in theory to make businesses hire people who use legal drugs is if a mass enough of people work for themselves. Not open a business, but do contractor or indie contractor work from home.

 

[Anita18]

Okay, nuclear option.

Let's say Tobacco still is legal...40 years from now and every other drug also is...but 100% of the work force doesn't hire people who use drugs.

What is the point then of making drugs legal, if businesses in turn says we won't hire you? The only way in theory to make businesses hire people who use legal drugs is if a mass enough of people work for themselves. Not open a business, but do contractor or indie contractor work from home.

FYI, a lot of companies like hiring contractors, because they don't pay benefits for them.

But that means the contractor already has to be pretty skilled coming in, without any training. For many low-level jobs, this is impossible, because companies want to brainwash lower-level workers to do exactly the same thing. That's why most contractors are specialized and are extremely good at what they do.

So, the ideal option for a smoker is (in your hypothetical world), specialize in your field, and be really good at what you do.

I still don't see your doomsday scenario. I think there are enough people who smoke and the like, to take the contractor option. It's just that when they have to pay their own health insurance, they might choose to quit smoking anyway, because being a smoker often increases your premiums.

 

[enterthemadness]

Sure you can. Depends on your ability and what you want to do.

My fiance didn't major in his current field. He worked full-time and then spent his evenings learning how to program. He didn't sit on his duff and wait for opportunities to come to him. He worked hard. This is what the country was founded on.

Sure most people don't have the interest or aptitude to code, but there will always be a need for handymen or plumbers and the like.

You might not get rich and you won't get stock options, but you'll be able to live how you like.

You just don't want that choice because that means taking charge of your own life, ETM. You'd rather sit back and be told what to do by a higher up, and then get paid. Which is fine. I sometimes prefer that kind of stability rather than freelancing, which is scary. But that means putting up with the crap of the higher ups.

Well, you got me on that. I have little interest in becoming a leader or a boss or even my own boss.

I also never been a benefits person. I'm a ''just give me a paycheck'' person. I have no idea if it's because I'm in my 20's or what, never had a desire for stock options or bond options or dental or health insurance or anything. Just a hourly or salary wage.

 

[enterthemadness]

FYI, a lot of companies like hiring contractors, because they don't pay benefits for them.

But that means the contractor already has to be pretty skilled coming in, without any training. For many low-level jobs, this is impossible, because companies want to brainwash lower-level workers to do exactly the same thing. That's why most contractors are specialized and are extremely good at what they do.

So, the ideal option for a smoker is (in your hypothetical world), specialize in your field, and be really good at what you do.

I still don't see your doomsday scenario. I think there are enough people who smoke and the like, to take the contractor option. It's just that when they have to pay their own health insurance, they might choose to quit smoking anyway, because being a smoker often increases your premiums.

What if they dip, chew, or use a e-cig?

 

[Anita18]

Well, you got me on that. I have little interest in becoming a leader or a boss or even my own boss.

I also never been a benefits person. I'm a ''just give me a paycheck'' person. I have no idea if it's because I'm in my 20's or what, never had a desire for stock options or bond options or dental or health insurance or anything. Just a hourly or salary wage.

Are your parents still paying for you?

My fiance pays for his own health insurance, which came in handy when he broke his wrist skateboarding. He's been skateboarding for more than 20 years, and it was his first major injury. You just never know. A trip to the ER can cost thousands if you don't have insurance. Stock options didn't interest him at his last job, but he's much too paranoid to go without health insurance for long.

 

[enterthemadness]

Are your parents still paying for you?

My fiance pays for his own health insurance, which came in handy when he broke his wrist skateboarding. He's been skateboarding for more than 20 years, and it was his first major injury. You just never know. A trip to the ER can cost thousands if you don't have insurance. Stock options didn't interest him at his last job, but he's much too paranoid to go without health insurance for long.

I...don't know. My Dad retired, so I think I got kicked off early. Last I heard my mom was trying to get me some basic insurance and I was like 'You don't need to do that'. I really rather not go to the doctor, insurance or not to be honest. I rather get a job and pay a fine or penalty, if the fine/penalty is cheaper than the insurance. If it's about the same, I probably get the insurance.

 

[Anita18]

I...don't know. My Dad retired, so I think I got kicked off early. Last I heard my mom was trying to get me some basic insurance and I was like 'You don't need to do that'. I really rather not go to the doctor, insurance or not to be honest. I rather get a job and pay a fine or penalty, if the fine/penalty is cheaper than the insurance. If it's about the same, I probably get the insurance.

My fiance is the same re: doctors, but hey, when your wrist is broken and you need to get a cast on it and some vicodin, you'll do anything.