Old Birds of Prey Discussion Thread

[Poppy]

Oh, an older Montoya. I like it. I'm so, so glad that they didn't go with Daddario, Lively... they seem to be casting based on actual talent rather than looks.

Same! When I saw that CW actresses were reading for the parts I got scared. I'm really loving this casting.

 

[Abudefduf]

BOP the comics have always managed to balance appealing to the male gaze and female readers. The visuals of BOP comicd have undoubtedly always played up the looks and sex appeal of the core members (Maybe Barbara Gordon to a lesser extent, as she plays into the cute geek girl iconography as Oracle and Batgirl. But she's not even in this).

The reason it works is the writing. You can have a cast full of 10's that appeal to the 'male gaze', but if the writing is strong and appeals to female friendships and concerns, then women will like it. It's almost lilike saying women are too insecure to watch a group of extremely attractive women on screen. I don"t fully believe that.

Look at Gal Gadot. When she was cast, people said she couldn't act and was cast for her looks. But Wonder Woman having a look that appeals to the male gaze is important. You cast a less attractive actress than Gadot as Diana and the character loses a lot of her appeal. Even for women, as Diana's beauty is aspirational. It might not be fair, but that's reality.

What made Wonder Woman appeal so strongly to female audiences despite casting a beauty queen that appealed to the so-called male gaze or conventional notions of 'hotness' in the lead, was the writing and also directing came from a female perspective with Patty Jenkins.

I don't buy this excuse that you can"t have all the BOP be as conventionally beautiful or sexy as they are generally shown in the comics. You just need strong writing/directing to make these super-hot badass hero women relatable and their friendships and dynamics feel real to women.

Jenkins didn't even cast Gadot as Diana, but she did cast Kristen Wiig as Cheetah.

Also Winstead and Smollett-Bell are beautiful. You're being wrong

I think Mary Elizabeth Winstead is the best looking of all the above, but... *shrug*

 

[semper]

I've already said that I would consider both Winstead and Smollet-Bell attractive in a fairly standard way. Many people would.

But as in everything in life, there are levels. Winstead and Smollet-Bell have both been around for years, but dudes ('male gaze again, sorry!) do no lust after them with the same intensity that they do a Margot Robbie, and never have. Or an Alexandra Daddario. That's keeping it real.

Margot knows there are levels to this thing as well. You put Margot next to Daddario or Gugu, suddenly she's no longer one or two levels up on the sex appeal scale. She might even be half a point behind. In that sense, Winstead and Smollet-Bell are safe choices for Robbie...attractive, but not so attractive that she's no longer the most obvious choice for sexiest Bird Of Prey.

The less said about Rosie, the better. Margot had casting power and didn't want real competition. It is what it is.

 

[David H.]

 

[semper]

DCEU is a complete horrorshow anyway, so this is just keeping up the tradition. Giving Zack Snyder too much power, giving Margot Robbie too much power....

Is it too much to ask for a DCEU Kevin Fiege equivalent, instead of just throwing crap against a wall and hoping something sticks?

 

[Snow Queen]

The last little bit of this thread is ****ing hilarious.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I've already said that I would consider both Winstead and Smollet-Bell attractive in a fairly standard way. Many people would.

But as in everything in life, there are levels. Winstead and Smollet-Bell have both been around for years, but dudes ('male gaze again, sorry!) do no lust after them with the same intensity that they do a Margot Robbie, and never have. Or an Alexandra Daddario. That's keeping it real.

Margot knows there are levels to this thing as well. You put Margot next to Daddario or Gugu, suddenly she's no longer one or two levels up on the sex appeal scale. She might even be half a point behind. In that sense, Winstead and Smollet-Bell are safe choices for Robbie...attractive, but not so attractive that she's no longer the most obvious choice for sexiest Bird Of Prey.

The less said about Rosie, the better. Margot had casting power and didn't want real competition. It is what it is.

"
My "male gaze" has always been rather happy with Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Very lusty.

 

[semper]

"
My "male gaze" has always been rather happy with Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Very lusty.

Looks and sex appeal:
Alexandra Daddario> Mary Elizabeth Winstead

Some people are being deliberately obtuse. No one is saying you can't find Winstead cute or attractive or whatever. But not all women are the same level of hot. How hard is that to fathom? If I'm Margot Robbie, I'm more likely more threatened by the looks/sex appeal combo from Daddario than I am from Winstead or Smollet-bell.

Or are we just being politically correct. Imagine if Rosie Perez got cast as Harley Quinn (She actually has the voice and the personality for it). People would lose their minds. And not in a good way. Yet she's good enough for Montoya, just because she's Latina?

 

[Poppy]

 

[David H.]

Or are we just being politically correct. Imagine if Rosie Perez got cast as Harley Quinn (She actually has the voice and the personality for it). People would lose their minds. And not in a good way. Yet she's good enough for Montoya, just because she's Latina?

 

[semper]

No offense, but replying with a GIF is just lazy to me. If you've got a counter-argument, make it.

Anyone can post a photo. It requires no intellectual capacity or thought process. Constructing an intelligent counter-point seems to be a declining skill though.

 

[David H.]

 

[Da-Scribe]

 

[Abudefduf]

Or are we just being politically correct. Imagine if Rosie Perez got cast as Harley Quinn (She actually has the voice and the personality for it). People would lose their minds. And not in a good way. Yet she's good enough for Montoya, just because she's Latina?

She's probably good enough for the version of Montoya that Robbie, Yan and Hodson are creating. It's no different than how Marvel cast Lawrence Fishburne to play this 10/10 hot hunk of a man.

Also you keep talking about levels of attractiveness... beauty is in the eye of the beholder, dude. That's all I can say.

 

[semper]

She's probably good enough for the version of Montoya that Robbie, Yan and Hodson are creating. It's no different than how Marvel cast Lawrence Fishburne to play this 10/10 hot hunk of a man.


Also you keep talking about levels of attractiveness... beauty is in the eye of the beholder, dude. That's all I can say.

I think Montoya has a more significant fan base than Bill Foster (whom Fishburne plays). In terms of Latina and Lesbian representation in comics (Which is limited), Montoya has been quite significant in the last 2 decades. She's someone I feel they had more of a duty to get right. A younger woman that can convincingly play an active superhero. There are other characters you can get to play a 55 year old cop. Get Montoya right.

As for the levels of attractiveness thing, if you see my initial post, I said I let that go initially. Yeah, Margot cast slightly less attractive (in my opinion) actresses than her to be Huntress and Canary, but I could deal with it.

The Perez casting just got me a bit triggered for the rest, because it just goes to further suggest a star who doesn't want big competition in an ensemble. I hope I'm proven wrong, just leave it at that. But I'm most upset at the Montoya casting. The rest isnt as bad, just retroactive venting

 

[Micromind]

They have the story, the casting is done based on that, plus there's a thing called screen-tests. If they just cast someone who looks hot, then it's incredibly limiting.

 

[semper]

They have the story, the casting is done based on that, plus there's a thing called screen-tests. If they just cast someone who looks hot, then it's incredibly limiting.

If looks did not factor strongly, we wouldn't have Henry Cavill or Gal Gadot, because I certainly doubt they were the best actors who tested for their roles.

Hell, Margot Robbie herself needed a specific look (perky, slim blonde) to be cast as Harley. If she looked like Maya Rudolph, she ain"t getting the role.

It's interesting though. People love Robbie's Harley in part because she's incredibly comics/animation accurate, right down to the look. Yet Robbie has no problem denying other characters the chance to have that same accuracy (and potential popularity) she enjoys ( racebending Canary, aging Montoya by 20 years etc)

 

[Da-Scribe]

This is why we don’t deserve nice things.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

What else is there to know about this movie beside it being a beauty pageant? I'm hoping for some good information.

MEW is considered nowhere near as attractive as Robbie, though she is a decent looking women

Why do you treat your view of beauty as general public perception?

 

[semper]

What else is there to know about this movie beside it being a beauty pageant? I'm hoping for some good information.

Why do you treat your view of beauty as general public perception?

Maybe it isn't, and my perception is skewed. I freely admit that possibility.But I'm not interested in being politically correct.

But all this casting tells me (from my possibly skewed perspective) is that Robbie doesn't want competition and I wish she wasn't a producer on it. Actress fine though. But I feel the casting and some of the decisions would look at lot different if Robbie didn't require appeasing

 

[Loki882]

I don't give two craps about Renee Montoya looking like a bombshell. That's FAR down the list of attributes that I look for in a tough as nails cop character. And the obsession with "does she look sexy enough" is why comic book fans have a bad rep in many quarters and nonsense like the last few pages just adds more fuel to that.

And MEW is definately considered to be very attractive by most people. Heck people STILL talk about THAT scene from Fargo Season Three, and she's considered to be a far better actress than Daddario on top of it all.

This is a movie, I care about good writing and good acting above all else. If Rosie gives us a well-acted interesting version of Montoya, who's also written well, then that's all that I ask for.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Looks and sex appeal:
Alexandra Daddario> Mary Elizabeth Winstead

Some people are being deliberately obtuse. No one is saying you can't find Winstead cute or attractive or whatever. But not all women are the same level of hot. How hard is that to fathom? If I'm Margot Robbie, I'm more likely more threatened by the looks/sex appeal combo from Daddario than I am from Winstead or Smollet-bell.

Or are we just being politically correct. Imagine if Rosie Perez got cast as Harley Quinn (She actually has the voice and the personality for it). People would lose their minds. And not in a good way. Yet she's good enough for Montoya, just because she's Latina?

I personally find MEW more attractive then Robbie or Daddario. She is an all time crush or mine. But you do you.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't give two craps about Renee Montoya looking like a bombshell. That's FAR down the list of attributes that I look for in a tough as nails cop character. And the obsession with "does she look sexy enough" is why comic book fans have a bad rep in many quarters and nonsense like the last few pages just adds more fuel to that.

And MEW is definately considered to be very attractive by most people. Heck people STILL talk about THAT scene from Fargo Season Three, and she's considered to be a far better actress than Daddario on top of it all.

This is a movie, I care about good writing and good acting above all else. If Rosie gives us a well-acted interesting version of Montoya, who's also written well, then that's all that I ask for.

My fear is they will turn her into female Gordon.

 

[Enriquespy]

Rosie is an excellent choice for Montoya. I'm interested in seeing a mature Montoya.
And what is this talk about looks? She is gorgeous.

 

[semper]

I don't give two craps about Renee Montoya looking like a bombshell. That's FAR down the list of attributes that I look for in a tough as nails cop character. And the obsession with "does she look sexy enough" is why comic book fans have a bad rep in many quarters and nonsense like the last few pages just adds more fuel to that.

And MEW is definately considered to be very attractive by most people. Heck people STILL talk about THAT scene from Fargo Season Three, and she's considered to be a far better actress than Daddario on top of it all.

This is a movie, I care about good writing and good acting above all else. If Rosie gives us a well-acted interesting version of Montoya, who's also written well, then that's all that I ask for.

Would you feel the same if Maya Rudolph were cast as Harley Quinn?

Or if Jenny Slate was cast as Wonder Woman?

It's all too easy to play this Kumbaya 'everyone is just as beautiful as everyone else's and 'best actor for the role stuff, when it's not a character you are passionate about in regards to accuracy. But when it's a character you truly care about...well then it's a different story, and those same people start wondering why they didn't cast more comics accurate.

Maybe it's easy for you to see Montoya cast as a 55 year old woman in her first major big screen in incarnation. But there are so many fans of the character who want her as they've always seen her. A latina/lesbian younger woman (30's at oldest probably), who becomes a superhero in her right. At Marvel, someone would probably have fought for Montoya to be cast right. Because it's DCEU, no one cares. Perez is not a fit for Montoya just because she is Latina. She is too old.

Montoya doesn't even need to be a great bombshell. But turning her into a character who is 5 years away from drawing a police pension is a disgrace. Montoya should have been younger. When she is into her mid 50's, it's not Montoya anymore.

Again, people would not stand for this nonsense if it were a character they were passionate about