Comics One More Day Discussion Thread

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good point, but don't tell me the clone saga didn't have you taking many hot showers to wash the dirty feeling away.

Well, I wasn't reading new comics when the clone saga was originally published (at the time, I used to read few, older Marvel comics, and many local/Argentinian comics) so I can honestly answer that :yay:
As a story, the idea of the mistery about Peter and a clone, and not knowing wich is the spiderman we knew sounded fine, butshould have been resolved quickly.
As a retconing device, it sucks, but still, is nowhere near this: the magical fix is the cheapest fastest way of undoing everything they didn't like, and worst, the unmasking, so recent, was just throw there in the mix...
I feel so dumb remembering Civil War 2, people talking about the unmasking, me saying it was a bad idea, a big problem, and people laughing and actually saying "They are gonna undo it soon, some magical spell from Dr Strange or something will whipe out the memory of everyone on earth or something like that" And me saying "nah, that's not Marvel, they may fix it someday, but it's not gonna be like that"

It' so sad :cmad:
 
The impression I get is that people aren't against OMD, the Clone Saga, and other stories. Rather it's more end result than anything else. Am I right?
 
The impression I get is that people aren't against OMD, the Clone Saga, and other stories. Rather it's more end result than anything else. Am I right?

No, OMD was completely out of character and even though I intended to read the whole thing, I threw out the first issue and started the boycott early. I won't pay for a crappy story that makes my favorite character someone else that I don't even like.

Clone saga was just a slap in the face. You know that guy you knew and loved? Well he was never really spider-man, now this backstreet boy is the real spider-man and the peter parker that we all grew up on is annexed for the sake of someone wearing a sweat shirt from flashdance?

The end result is important but if the story was thought out and made sense written in character, then I doubt I'd have such strong opposition to it. I'm all about change and shaking things up, but if you want to keep me around I need to see someone is making an effort and not treating me like a moron.
 
See I actually liked parts of the Clone Saga. The concept was intriguing at the start but, Marvel messed up as soon as they decided to start shipping Ben as the "real" Spider-man. All in all though, I wouldn't say the Clone Saga was awful. The problem was that Marvel tried to milk it for all it was worth by stretching it out to a ridiculous level. On the other hand, I hated OMD from the start. The first issue was awful and it got progressively worse issue after issue. Peter's deal with Mephisto at the end to give up his marriage is probably the most out of character decision he's ever made. Well I guess you could toss the "Unmasking" into that category. Maybe in some weird way there was some logic behind the "Unmasking" decision. However there is no way to defend this OMD. No way whatsoever.
 
In my case, it's mostly the dumb chep way they did it... Second comes the big f you to older readers in favor of grabbing new readers (basically I see them saying "ok, we don't care if you like spidey or not, we are just gonna demolish everything and make it all over, so other people may like it"). Third, it comes reason no 1 again, but this time because it made right all the people that mocked the unmasking joking that it was going to be reconned anyway...
 
Looks like Newsweek on their website has finally picked up the story. I found this particular passage quite interesting:

Of course, the breakup won't be easy for everyone to get over. A series is only as good as its characters, and it's only natural for fans to get invested in them. "My sixth- and seventh-grade students asked me, after the first [Spider-Man] movie came out, 'What happened with Peter and Mary Jane?' Like they're real people that send me postcards," says Greg Hatcher, a Seattle art teacher who teaches drawing and cartooning and writes a weekly column for Comic Book Resources, the Web site that puts out the Comics Should Be Good blog. He says his students have even come to favor Spider-Girl over the original series, a Marvel spinoff in which Spidey is married and retired, with a 15-year-old daughter who inherits his powers.

You can read the full article here:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/89134
 
See I actually liked parts of the Clone Saga. The concept was intriguing at the start but, Marvel messed up as soon as they decided to start shipping Ben as the "real" Spider-man. All in all though, I wouldn't say the Clone Saga was awful. The problem was that Marvel tried to milk it for all it was worth by stretching it out to a ridiculous level. On the other hand, I hated OMD from the start. The first issue was awful and it got progressively worse issue after issue. Peter's deal with Mephisto at the end to give up his marriage is probably the most out of character decision he's ever made. Well I guess you could toss the "Unmasking" into that category. Maybe in some weird way there was some logic behind the "Unmasking" decision. However there is no way to defend this OMD. No way whatsoever.

I completely agree. If they brought ben in as Pete's clone and Pete guided him then he set off on his own as a spider-man roaming america or the world trying to find his place and purpose while Kaine hounded him, that would have been kick-ass.

I think a lot of the odd pete decisions before the deal with the devil that he would never make was just to make pete enough of a dick and make enough people unhappy with him that the reset would seem like a blessing to some. (not me, but some).
 
I completely agree. If they brought ben in as Pete's clone and Pete guided him then he set off on his own as a spider-man roaming america or the world trying to find his place and purpose while Kaine hounded him, that would have been kick-ass.

**** yeah.
 
I was lovin the clone saga up until the big BS reveal, then it was ruined by them scrambling to re-ignite the status Quo...(cyclical people these things are cyclical) I maintain that the Sins Past Gwen was a clone...:o
 
DoomRulz said:
The impression I get is that people aren't against OMD, the Clone Saga, and other stories. Rather it's more end result than anything else. Am I right?

When I was following the Clone Saga, I was interested in what role Ben Reilly had to play. When it was "revealed" that Ben was the "original" and Peter was the "Clone," I shook my head and groaned at the ridiculousness of it. And when Ben took over as Spider-Man, I was really hoping that the real one would come back and that Marvel wouldn't be stupid enough to try and make this stick (although, I must admit, I thought the new Spider-Man costume and impact webbing were really cool, and Kaine was a very in-depth villain). In hindsight, the whole Clone Saga was part of a larger trend in comics at the time in which both companies thought they could revitalize their franchises by substituting long-time heroes with cooler versions of them. Isn't it interesting that none of the "revamped" versions lasted?

With One More Day/Brand New Day, it was pretty obvious where Marvel was going to eliminate the marriage of Peter and Mary Jane; the whole unmasking stunt (and it proved to be just that) was when the writing was on the wall. Not that I was opposed to the idea of having Peter single again, because I do believe he's a much more interesting character when he is not just single but also a college student (ideally, Spider-Man should be about the same age or a few years older than Robin IMO). However, it was the way it was done that was incredibly stupid and shortsighted. I mean, come on! You have your flagship character, one that is actively marketed to kids, whom you want younger and younger readers to read and what do you do? You have him guilt-trip his wife in making a bargain with Mephisto--who is either Satan or the epitome of evil, take your pick--in which said villain completely benefits. And all to save the life of his Aunt in a scenario which made Peter come across as not only needy, unable to deal with the reality of death, but also with a serious Oedipus Complex. What's even more ridiculous is that, even if they felt the marriage limited the character, the fact is that, because of the marriage, a very successful movie franchise, and a variety of other Spider-Man related media--including the comic books--Mary Jane is now regarded by even people who do not read the comics as Peter's "true love" and Marvel has actively promoted her as such. Any relationship Peter gets into now is only going to be seen as an obstacle until he gets back with MJ, whether they are married or not, especially since Joe Quesada has gone on record saying that marriage is off the table, which means any relationship Peter has is doomed to never go past the dating stage.

Plus, as a result, we also got a reboot which Marvel claims isn't a reboot, despite the fact that you have Harry Osborn back from the dead, the return of the webshooters, Aunt May's house intact, etc. Couple this with the claim that Peter and MJ still had a relationship but weren't married, that people still remember Spider-Man unmasked, but no one knows who he is anymore, and that he's been inactive for months, and Marvel has only ended up creating confusion as well as anger amongst it's fan base and probably the "new readers" they're trying to attract. In short, rather than just going with a full reboot because they knew it would interfere with all kinds of comics outside of Spider-Man, they took the half-assed route and ended up doing precisely what they wanted to avoid.

Both examples were both motivated by the same thing: to make Peter Parker as close to what he was to when Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita were working on the comic out of a misguided sense of nostalgia. And the end result is the same: trying to both keep continuity intact while at the same scrapping or altering years worth of stories in order to make things fit and creating a bigger mess than what they had to begin with. Guess no one pays attention to the adage, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions," or "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
 
See I actually liked parts of the Clone Saga. The concept was intriguing at the start but, Marvel messed up as soon as they decided to start shipping Ben as the "real" Spider-man. All in all though, I wouldn't say the Clone Saga was awful. The problem was that Marvel tried to milk it for all it was worth by stretching it out to a ridiculous level. On the other hand, I hated OMD from the start. The first issue was awful and it got progressively worse issue after issue. Peter's deal with Mephisto at the end to give up his marriage is probably the most out of character decision he's ever made. Well I guess you could toss the "Unmasking" into that category. Maybe in some weird way there was some logic behind the "Unmasking" decision. However there is no way to defend this OMD. No way whatsoever.

I agree. The basic premise of the clone saga was very intriguing.

I mean, lets say the clone saga and OMD never happened. If I walked up to you and said "hey I have two ideas for a Spider-man story. My first one is to have the clone from the 70's arc with the Jackal turn out to be alive and meet up with Spidey because he wants to visit Aunt May on her deathbed. I'd also bring back the Jackal and have him cast doubt over who the real Spider-man is.

My other idea is to have the Mephisto offer Spidey to save Aunt May from a bullet wound (never mind that there are multiple mutants and other superheros that could heal her up in a jiffy) in exchange for Pete's marriage."

The basic idea of OMD was just stupid, whereas the basic idea of the clone saga was interesting. I think, had Marvel kept the clone saga to the original length they wanted to (around a year I think) and not tried to replace Peter with Ben and just kept Ben as a supporting character, it would have been quite good.
 
Ben Reilly was one of the greatest supporting characters in spidey comics. His 'brother' chemistry with Peter was awesome and added new depths to peter parker. The reason i think marvel decided to make ben reilly the real spidey was because they didnt want to have two spider-men running around the marvel universe forever. So, they needed to decide which one would be spidey, and since ben was fresh and new, they decided to take a chance. When that backfired, they decided to kill off Ben because the marvel universe isnt big enough for two spider-men. Which i think is bull.
 
^Well, saturating marvel with two identical people/of any hero, is kinda lame...when you're talking about two spider-mans, two captain americas, two hulks, two hawkeyes, or what ever.

I can see more than one Green LAntern, due ot the nature of the "hero" being a hero of a sector in the universe. Still, the challenge then becomes how do you differeniate Green Lantern one or Green Lantern two.

BUt , i think marvel was wise to get rid of Ben Reilly. (i've re-read, what i refused to collect back then...and i am glad, (and not surprised fans revolted) HOWEVER, i will say NOW, that in hindsite, it wasn't horrible, at first, rereading them....YET...it dragged on for an obnoxiously long time. No one wants to read clones for years in every issue of every title.

MArvel also seems to have a knack of repeating their mistakes and ticking off fans.

I don't know how many GWEN clone stories they needed to tell before getting the point from fans that they are SICK of gwen clone stories, just as another example.
 
The impression I get is that people aren't against OMD, the Clone Saga, and other stories. Rather it's more end result than anything else. Am I right?
Tons of us are against OMD. As other has said, it was out of character for sure. Bottom line, it was horrible.
 
Stillanerd: Guess no one pays attention to the adage, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions," or "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Yeh, very true...that (history) sadly seems to be ignored a lot.

The thing is, all i know, is business wise, it is never a good thing to outrage a large segment of your customers.

Remember Coca-cola..???

I just hope the Marvel (Joe) can be big enough to correct things (sooner than later) if and when it is apparent that things need fixing and don't stretch it out and damage (the customer base) even further.

I mean, if Coke had held out returning to the classic coke formula, ignored the opinions of a giant chunk of their fan base...and said..."Well, this is a better direction, and the fans are fickle..."....the CEO would have damaged the brand at some point beyond return. Sure, some people DID like the new taste....but it boils down to those that buy it and bought it without some new hype surrounding it, day in and day out.
 
spider-manhero: Tons of us are against OMD. As other has said, it was out of character for sure. Bottom line, it was horrible.

And i think, that is where some posters have a hard time understanding why some people who say this, YET then continue to buy BND, which continues the premise and THAT foundation.

I mean, it is like saying "you" (a person) hates everything about RYE bread, states that opinion up and down, yet then goes and eats a P and J sandwich on it.

It's like....:huh:

Or they're like, "well, Slott made the tuna-fish in it."
 
Yeh, very true...that (history) sadly seems to be ignored a lot.

The thing is, all i know, is business wise, it is never a good thing to outrage a large segment of your customers.

Remember Coca-cola..???

I just hope the Marvel (Joe) can be big enough to correct things (sooner than later) if and when it is apparent that things need fixing and don't stretch it out and damage (the customer base) even further.

I mean, if Coke had held out returning to the classic coke formula, ignored the opinions of a giant chunk of their fan base...and said..."Well, this is a better direction, and the fans are fickle..."....the CEO would have damaged the brand at some point beyond return. Sure, some people DID like the new taste....but it boils down to those that buy it and bought it without some new hype surrounding it, day in and day out.

There's another example more closely related to this than the "New Coke" debacle--not that it isn't a bad comparison.

Star Trek.

When Rick Bergman took over the franchise after Gene Roddenberry died, he also tried to attract new viewers to the various spin-offs of the Next Generation, emphasizing more action, political intrigue, and sex in order to stay one step ahead of it's competitor at the time, JMS' Babylon 5. We also got shows like "Yoyager" and "Enterprise" out of the deal which were, by a large, recycled versions of better episodes of the original series and TNG, only with "hipper" and "edgier" characters. And the fans of Trek hated it. It all came to a head with "Star Trek:Nemesis" which was poorly received at the box office and, despite featuring the TNG cast, even fans of Trek hated it.

And now, in a desperate attempt to revitalize Star Trek, the producers are restoring to a "prequel/reboot" movie of the original series directed by J.J. Abrams with Matt Damon as Captain Kirk and Zachary Quinto of Heroes as Spock. Today, the Star Trek franchise is crippled because, in their attempts to attract a younger audience, they pissed off the long term fans who had been following the show and made it a success to begin with, including those fans who were first introduced to Star Trek by those same long term fans.

Joe Quesada is following the same pattern as Rick Bergman in my opinion, and by trying to attract "new readers" he's driving the original fan base away, the ones who actually introduce the characters they've become fans of to a younger generation.
 
stillanerd: We also got shows like "Voyager" and "Enterprise" out of the deal which were, by a large, recycled versions of better episodes of the original series and TNG, only with "hipper" and "edgier" characters. And the fans of Trek hated it. It all came to a head with "Star Trek:Nemesis" which was poorly received at the box office and, despite featuring the TNG cast, even fans of Trek hated it.

And now, in a desperate attempt to revitalize Star Trek, the producers are restoring to a "prequel/reboot" movie of the original series directed by J.J. Abrams with Matt Damon as Captain Kirk and Zachary Quinto of Heroes as Spock. Today, the Star Trek franchise is crippled because, in their attempts to attract a younger audience, they pissed off the long term fans who had been following the show and made it a success to begin with, including those fans who were first introduced to Star Trek by those same long term fans.

Joe Quesada is following the same pattern as Rick Bergman in my opinion, and by trying to attract "new readers" he's driving the original fan base away, the ones who actually introduce the characters they've become fans of to a younger generation.


Ah yes, another good example stillanerd.

There's prolly others i/we can think of too...once i get going.

But yeh, generally speaking, ticking off a chunk of your customer base typically is NOT a good idea in the long run.

I mean, i don't honestly feel a story about any superhero, especially spider-man, flushing his marriage alongside the devil and flushing continuity is one in which is gonna "revitalize" any hero's book in a positive way. It doesn't ring "classic" in any sense of the word.
 
There's another example more closely related to this than the "New Coke" debacle--not that it isn't a bad comparison.

Star Trek.

When Rick Bergman took over the franchise after Gene Roddenberry died, he also tried to attract new viewers to the various spin-offs of the Next Generation, emphasizing more action, political intrigue, and sex in order to stay one step ahead of it's competitor at the time, JMS' Babylon 5. We also got shows like "Yoyager" and "Enterprise" out of the deal which were, by a large, recycled versions of better episodes of the original series and TNG, only with "hipper" and "edgier" characters. And the fans of Trek hated it. It all came to a head with "Star Trek:Nemesis" which was poorly received at the box office and, despite featuring the TNG cast, even fans of Trek hated it.

And now, in a desperate attempt to revitalize Star Trek, the producers are restoring to a "prequel/reboot" movie of the original series directed by J.J. Abrams with Matt Damon as Captain Kirk and Zachary Quinto of Heroes as Spock. Today, the Star Trek franchise is crippled because, in their attempts to attract a younger audience, they pissed off the long term fans who had been following the show and made it a success to begin with, including those fans who were first introduced to Star Trek by those same long term fans.

Joe Quesada is following the same pattern as Rick Bergman in my opinion, and by trying to attract "new readers" he's driving the original fan base away, the ones who actually introduce the characters they've become fans of to a younger generation.

I liked Nemesis, I thought it was one of the better Trek movies out there. It was certainly better than that silly film Generations. Voyager was good, people liked it. I don't know what you're talking about. But I have to agree with you about Enterprise. Personally I don't consider it canon.
 
The thing (among many) that I also don't get stillanerd...is why didn't Joe just launch a new title of Spider-Man, since that's essentially what he just did.

Instead of cancling the other titles that he did, and now Amazing essentially, and flushing past history, retconning, and "not remembering"...why didn't he get good writers and artists to keep it moving forward.

We already had an Ultimate Spider-Man.

Now we have Ultimate Ultimate Spider-Man and essentially no Amazing.

And the other thing is, if he had just started another title, based on a selfish single Pete dealing with the devil "Storyline"....and it bombed, no harm would have been done to the in-continuity spider-man.
Woulda been much smarter all around that way.
 
I liked Nemesis, I thought it was one of the better Trek movies out there. It was certainly better than that silly film Generations. Voyager was good, people liked it. I don't know what you're talking about. But I have to agree with you about Enterprise. Personally I don't consider it canon.

Oh, I agree that Nemesis was certainly better looking than Generations, but if you think about it, Nemesis is basically "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" reworked with the TNG characters. Voyager, in comparison to TNG and DS9 was the weakest outing of the "Next Generation" series. They had to resort of having the Borg as regular villains in order to keep that whole show afloat and it was built on a faulty storytelling premise to begin with: if Voyager can never make it home because then the show will be over. Not that I didn't like some of it, myself. And I agree with your attitude towards Enterprise. That show was nothing more than flasher, hipper, but overall a weaker version of the original series. Kind of like, dare I say, "Brand New Day?" (Least you forget this is a Spider-Man message board. :cwink:)
 
And I was thinking the other day that it would be low to make Spidey a Skrull, to undo the unmasking :(
 
Oh, I agree that Nemesis was certainly better looking than Generations, but if you think about it, Nemesis is basically "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" reworked with the TNG characters.

You're right, but I don't consider that a bad thing.

Voyager, in comparison to TNG and DS9 was the weakest outing of the "Next Generation" series. They had to resort of having the Borg as regular villains in order to keep that whole show afloat and it was built on a faulty storytelling premise to begin with: if Voyager can never make it home because then the show will be over. Not that I didn't like some of it, myself.

I see where you're coming from. My counter to that though is the fact that it was set in the Delta Quadrant made it that much more interesting b/c no one knew what to expect.

And I agree with your attitude towards Enterprise. That show was nothing more than flasher, hipper, but overall a weaker version of the original series. Kind of like, dare I say, "Brand New Day?" (Least you forget this is a Spider-Man message board. :cwink:)

:lmao: Ya, no argument there :oldrazz:
 
There's another example more closely related to this than the "New Coke" debacle--not that it isn't a bad comparison.

Star Trek.

When Rick Bergman took over the franchise after Gene Roddenberry died, he also tried to attract new viewers to the various spin-offs of the Next Generation, emphasizing more action, political intrigue, and sex in order to stay one step ahead of it's competitor at the time, JMS' Babylon 5. We also got shows like "Yoyager" and "Enterprise" out of the deal which were, by a large, recycled versions of better episodes of the original series and TNG, only with "hipper" and "edgier" characters. And the fans of Trek hated it. It all came to a head with "Star Trek:Nemesis" which was poorly received at the box office and, despite featuring the TNG cast, even fans of Trek hated it.

And now, in a desperate attempt to revitalize Star Trek, the producers are restoring to a "prequel/reboot" movie of the original series directed by J.J. Abrams with Matt Damon as Captain Kirk and Zachary Quinto of Heroes as Spock. Today, the Star Trek franchise is crippled because, in their attempts to attract a younger audience, they pissed off the long term fans who had been following the show and made it a success to begin with, including those fans who were first introduced to Star Trek by those same long term fans.

Joe Quesada is following the same pattern as Rick Bergman in my opinion, and by trying to attract "new readers" he's driving the original fan base away, the ones who actually introduce the characters they've become fans of to a younger generation.

First off, it's Berman. Second of all, a quick google indicates that Matt Damon has nothing to do with this.
 
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