Organic "Victor": A Doombot All Along? (new photo inside)

[Dragon]

Doombots really aren't an important prt of FF history. They were just a cheezy plot device so that Doom could escape capture, rendered useless upon his having diplomatic immunity. I don't recall one story in which Doombots played an important part.

And here it would be what it was in Austin Powers. A joke. But we expected that from Austin Powers. This shouldn't be the case with FF no matter how "light" one may think they are. The Doombot thing would send FF rocketing into absurdity. Doom showed too much emotion over his condition in FF1. And he wouldn't have had a robot propose to Sue. If she said yes, would the robot have been programmed to have celebratory sex with her as well?

If the goal was to retcon FF1 Doom, there are many more plausible ways to do it, from Doom curing himself of the matallic skin (but his being disfigured because of it) to the oft mentioned loss of the power cosmic (still leaving him disfigured).

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

And here it would be what it was in Austin Powers. A joke. But we expected that from Austin Powers. This shouldn't be the case with FF no matter how "light" one may think they are. The Doombot thing would send FF rocketing into absurdity. Doom showed too much emotion over his condition in FF1. And he wouldn't have had a robot propose to Sue. If she said yes, would the robot have been programmed to have celebratory sex with her as well?

If the goal was to retcon FF1 Doom, there are many more plausible ways to do it, from Doom curing himself of the matallic skin (but his being disfigured because of it) to the oft mentioned loss of the power cosmic (still leaving him disfigured).

The film adaptation underestimated and underplayed one vital characteristic of Dr. Doom: his brilliance. The man is a freak when it comes to robotics. His mind rivals that of Reed's. This would be an interesting way to show it.

As far as his attraction to Sue in FF1, Doombots have been shown to be capable of doing that in the comics. If the film presented him as a clone or an android, the audiences would easily accept that (and fans would be more than will to forgive it).

Doombots really aren't an important prt of FF history. They were just a cheezy plot device so that Doom could escape capture, rendered useless upon his having diplomatic immunity. I don't recall one story in which Doombots played an important part.

Um....what?

Victor is a monarch--a ruler of a frigging government. The bots comprise his army...and they have played a major role in the outworking of his goals forever in the comics. How many countless times have the FF had to fight the Doombots in hand-to-hand combat in Latveria and stateside in order to get to Doom?

Where are you getting this from?

 

[chaseter]

Doombots are dumb and I don't think would work on screen. If that is the case...I will laugh.

 

[Dragon]

The film adaptation underestimated and underplayed one vital characteristic of Dr. Doom: his brilliance. The man is a freak when it comes to robotics. His mind rivals that of Reed's. This would be an interesting way to show it.

There are lots better ways of showing his brilliance. His weaponry. His armor. His elaborate plots for destroying the FF.

As far as his attraction to Sue in FF1, Doombots have been shown to be capable of doing that in the comics. If the film presented him as a clone or an android, the audiences would easily accept that (and fans would be more than will to forgive it).

I completely disagree. Showing Doom in FF1 with all of his passions (For Sue, for kicking Reed's ass, etc.) to have merely been a robot would render everything in the first film moot. And there wasn't much there to begin with.

No one would have reason to take FF2 seriously, because we could then learn in FF3 that it was again a robot. There's no need to connect to the villain. The Doombot escape is one thing that would clearly not translate from comic to screen.

Um....what?

Victor is a monarch--a ruler of a frigging government. The bots comprise his army...and they have played a major role in the outworking of his goals forever in the comics. How many countless times have the FF had to fight the Doombots in hand-to-hand combat in Latveria and stateside in order to get to Doom?

Where are you getting this from?

His army are those purple metallic armored guys. Who at times are shown to be robots and others to be humanoid. Those guys ARE important.

I'm saying the robotic dupilcates of Doom are unimportant, and are used to show Doom escape capture. And things got even sillier when they attempted to pawn off Doom's failed schemes on the Doombots acting independently. That was about as cheezy as it got. I'm saying I challenge anyone to name a story where they played an important role other than as a cop-out escape.

 

[Alcatraz]

if anything the human doom in the pic we have is the doom bot. the real doom is horribly disfigured and veryinsecure about his appearence, so he would create doombots that look like him before ff1 to do all of his socializing and business. what country would let an insane organic metal burn victom become the president? i bet he uses the doombots to appear infront of people, while he hides in his castle with his classic armor hiding his ugly ass disfigured body, watching a dozen different tvs that invade everyones privacy.

i bet the ff see this doombot and think "what the fu**! i thought u where a disgusting naked metal statue!" then thing clobbers him and finds out hes a robot.

no matter what, the doom in the first movie is the real one.

another idea is that to save doom from his metal prison his little helper from the first movie uses reeds machine on him to cure him of his powers there for freeing him from all that organic metal, but leaving him hirribly disfigured (looking much like doom from the comics). that way we have doom without the organic metal and cheesy electiric powers, and the ugly ass burn victom face. the loss of all that power he had in the firest movie would leave him even more power hungry, giving him even more incentive to steal surfers powers.

mix both these ideas together and i think your on your way to a better doom.

 

[Tony Stark]

Reed invented a machine to take away their cosmic powers. Perhaps the only way Victor can unfreeze himself is to use it on himself. But with the loss of his power, he can't power the machine up any more to reach critical mass.

This would be a motivation for him to steal the Surfer's power. yeah it's a deviation from the comics, but it sounds more interesting than Doombots.

Anyway let's see how it pans out.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

I'm saying the robotic dupilcates of Doom are unimportant, and are used to show Doom escape capture. And things got even sillier when they attempted to pawn off Doom's failed schemes on the Doombots acting independently. That was about as cheezy as it got. I'm saying I challenge anyone to name a story where they played an important role other than as a cop-out escape.

Dr. Doom used a Doombot in his very first appearance:

from http://www.ffplaza.com/library/?issue=ff5

Doom is delighted, explaining that the treasure used to belong to Merlin. The fabled magician supposedly "... gave them mystic power... the power to make the owner INVINCIBLE!" Off to the side, Johnny notes that the gems were scattered to the bottom of the ocean and asks Reed what would happen if the Sub-Mariner ever found them (thus planting the seeds for a Namor/Doom team-up the following issue). Doom digs into the chest, only to find chains. Thing charges Doom, punches him, and Doom shatters, leading to the first of literally thousands of "Gasp! He was a robot all along!" scenes. An orb lowers from the ceiling and the real Doom appears on it, telling his prisoners that he'll be draining the room of all oxygen.

So yes... they have been used countless times as a plot device for Doom's escape... but it was established in his VERY FIRST APPEARANCE that he created and used them for just such a purpose.

Over the years, it has also been established that the Doombot replicated Doom nearly perfectly - even down to emotional responses.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I completely disagree. Showing Doom in FF1 with all of his passions (For Sue, for kicking Reed's ass, etc.) to have merely been a robot would render everything in the first film moot. And there wasn't much there to begin with.

And that's why it should be mooted. LOL t:

No one would have reason to take FF2 seriously, because we could then learn in FF3 that it was again a robot. There's no need to connect to the villain. The Doombot escape is one thing that would clearly not translate from comic to screen.

I think if it's done right it could go over very well, adding another layer of deciet and corruption to Victor's personna.

His army are those purple metallic armored guys. Who at times are shown to be robots and others to be humanoid. Those guys ARE important.

I'm saying the robotic dupilcates of Doom are unimportant, and are used to show Doom escape capture. And things got even sillier when they attempted to pawn off Doom's failed schemes on the Doombots acting independently. That was about as cheezy as it got. I'm saying I challenge anyone to name a story where they played an important role other than as a cop-out escape.

But that's the point: they haven't always been utilized to give him an 'escape.'

Let's face it, Doom prefers not to "sully" himself with dealing with his enemies one-on-one if he has a choice. Not that he isn't capable, but he prefers to use his minions instead...it's beneath him. There has been many times when Victor used a dummy bot to throw off and confuse would-be enemies.

A great example of this is in a recent issue of Black Panther where he had a bot cleverly engage T'Challa and Storm before he personally intervened. When the duo tried to escape, Victor called in hordes of soldiers to attack them and their shuttle. T'Challa shut them down with an EMP surge.

Another situation that comes to recent memory involves the pre-Civil War conflict involving Victor's release from hell and his quest to retrieve Thor's hammer. His army of Doombots played a key role in engaging the Fantastic Four and the U.S. Government while Victor concentrated on his goal.

 

[Dragon]

Dr. Doom used a Doombot in his very first appearance:



So yes... they have been used countless times as a plot device for Doom's escape... but it was established in his VERY FIRST APPEARANCE that he created and used them for just such a purpose.

I know FF history, and that Doom used a robot in his first appearance. It doesn't mean the device didn't get cheezy over time. That's why Stan used it sparingly at most. It was guys like Byrne that let it get out of hand.

Over the years, it has also been established that the Doombot replicated Doom nearly perfectly - even down to emotional responses.

Another factor in the cheeziness. Again- you have no reason to invest in the story if you know that its all a put on due to a corny escape plan. Imagine if FF #57-60 ended with it being a Doombot.

Simply saying they can replicate Doom's emotional responses doesn't mean it works. It's like Batman's endless array of weapons in his utility belt like "Bat shark repelent".

 

[Vartha]

Well I'm lazy today to read through the thread, I think in that pic with Ben holding Victor, it's Victor that's the Doombot, the Real Doom is somewhere else.
I don't think that the Doombots are a dumb plot device by ANY means for the FF storys. Doombots are a part of FF and Doom history and should be used. Not using them would be like Mephito not using Demons for his dirty work.
To me Victor Von Doom would trust a robot over his underlings. I mean look what happened in the first movie, his board pulled their support, this would make Doom alittle cautious with people other than the one guy who helped him at the end of the first movie, but, then that could have been a bot too.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

You have every reason to invest in the story because it's "The Fantastic Four"... not "Dr. Doom".

Just because Doom isn't always physically present... it doesn't negate the danger he presents to the general public or the 4 themselves. Many times his machinations were more important that his own personal presence. Does that mean that those incidents were any less threatening?

As I recall... Byrne did an excellent job in using his Doombots to infuse Kristoff with Doom's memories and the first thing he did was blow up the Baxter building in outer space. Does that story not really count as a Doom story?

 

[Vartha]

I agree Joe, Doom with his bots everywhere is a major threat to many people not just the FF.

 

[Saint]

Anyone expecting Doombots in this film is going to be really disappointed.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

You're probably right, Saint. I really can't imagine them dipping into that well.

It's not the best plot device around, but it could be used effectively.

 

[Dragon]

You have every reason to invest in the story because it's "The Fantastic Four"... not "Dr. Doom".[/qoute]

Not really. The FF themselves aren't developed well enough to carry the weight of the story themselves. And the story isn't just about the FF, but their conflict with whomever the villain is. A cypher of a villain doesn't serve the story.

Just because Doom isn't always physically present... it doesn't negate the danger he presents to the general public or the 4 themselves. Many times his machinations were more important that his own personal presence. Does that mean that those incidents were any less threatening?

Yes it does. A villain's strength isn't merely in his machinations. It's how he interacts with the heroes. His physical presence and how imposing it is. The lines he speaks. He doesn't have to be in every scene- but the suggestion that for an ENTIRE FILM that he wasn't present? No way.

As I recall... Byrne did an excellent job in using his Doombots to infuse Kristoff with Doom's memories and the first thing he did was blow up the Baxter building in outer space. Does that story not really count as a Doom story?

Nope. Doom's best stories are when he's physically there- when the stakes are highest between him and the FF. As I said in another thread- that in the hundreds of stories he's appeared in, there are some wherein he uses the Doombot thing is okay now and then. But's it no more integral to who Doom is than his time machine.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

You have every reason to invest in the story because it's "The Fantastic Four"... not "Dr. Doom".[/qoute]

Not really. The FF themselves aren't developed well enough to carry the weight of the story themselves. And the story isn't just about the FF, but their conflict with whomever the villain is. A cypher of a villain doesn't serve the story.



Yes it does. A villain's strength isn't merely in his machinations. It's how he interacts with the heroes. His physical presence and how imposing it is. The lines he speaks. He doesn't have to be in every scene- but the suggestion that for an ENTIRE FILM that he wasn't present? No way.



Nope. Doom's best stories are when he's physically there- when the stakes are highest between him and the FF. As I said in another thread- that in the hundreds of stories he's appeared in, there are some wherein he uses the Doombot thing is okay now and then. But's it no more integral to who Doom is than his time machine.

So basically... Doom isn't truly threatening unless he's standing in front of you and hurling bolts of lightning at you. Got it.

 

[CAH]

Well, I suppose it COULD be a Doombot...but that could be a little and for a lot of people...i personally don't care....because either way, Julian McMahon is still great.



CAH

 

[Dragon]

So basically... Doom isn't threatening unless he's standing in front of you and hurling bolts of lightning at you. Got it.

How ridiculously simplistic. No, of course I'm not saying that. Someone as dangerous as Doom is threatening simply because he exists. But he's MORE THREATENING when he's there. And his story is more dramatic when he's facing danger as well. And again- suggesting that for the ENTIRE FIRST FILM, he wasn't really there kills any drama that the first film had at all.

 

[Saint]

Edit: what I posted here is no longer relevant, because apparently our mod didn't like the post I was responding to, so he deleted it.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

How ridiculously simplistic. No, of course I'm not saying that. Someone as dangerous as Doom is threatening simply because he exists. But he's MORE THREATENING when he's there. And his story is more dramatic when he's facing danger as well. And again- suggesting that for the ENTIRE FIRST FILM, he wasn't really there kills any drama that the first film had at all.

I recall the Terminator was only a robot acting on behalf of the world computer... but he was damn threatening to Sarah Conner.

In the Matrix... Agent Smith was the immediate threat, but most certainly wasn't the true villain of the movie.

How about Lord of the Rings? You never see Sauron... but the presence and threat is always hanging overhead.

Star Wars? The Emperor was the true villain but he didn't make a physical appearance until Return of the Jedi.

So... does Doom really need to be the one trading blows with the 4 for him to be perceived as a threat?

 

[bosef982]

At the risk of once more attacking Lightning by posting my very thoughts:

How is it possible for the first movie to have a robot? So, a robot proposed to Sue? A robot got so pissed at his appearance falling apart? A robot was imbued with all the passion and anger from the previous Doom?

It just doesn't make sense. If he was a mindless automon running around, maybe? But, like it or not, the FF1 Doom had feelings, passion, etc. and those are not so easily explained off by a robot. Also, it does render the entire first movie sort of pointless, since a lot of the tension (i.e. Reed, Susan, Victor) centered on them all being REAL people and not robots.

There's just too many plotholes and too many illogical inconsitencies for it to work properly.

Now, this is not to insinuate that Lightning is illogical, or inconsitent, or any adjective I may have used to describe my problems with this theory.

 

[Iron Maiden]

Jeez, for some people who claim to know Doom's history, they seem to be forgeting his claims of being a master of robotics, so much so that is why he was scouted out by the U.S. when he was a gypsy insurrectionist running around Latveria. Remember also that there was a robot duplicate of Victor, a human Victor, that faced a Latverian firing squad before he went to the States. The only reason why Latveria doesn't have much of a standing army is that he builds robotic sentries.

From his mastery of that field of science emerged the Doombots. Actually, as Walt Simonson is fond of reminding me when I goof up this point on my other MB, John Byrne brought the Doombots into the forefront on his run of the FF. Most famously (or infamously) he used them to rectify an incident scripted by Chris Claremont when Arcade struck a match off Doom's armor... and lived to tell the tale. t: This irked JB to the extent that he retconned the whole Doom vs the X-Men story in Uncanny #145 into malfuntioning Doombot that immediately got destroyed. It was just a little game of one-up-manship between Claremont and Byrne, and not a feud as others have surmised.

A few years later, when Walt Simonson took over the FF he once again used played the Doombot card because after Byrne left, no one properly addressed the fact that Kristoff was in charge of Latveria while Doom was running around the MU like a vagrant looking for a handout. This is one thing that Simonson felt had to be corrected because he felt that the Victor von Doom he wanted to write about would never go begging others to help him get Latveria back from the Doom Lite aka Kristoff. So when Doom returned in FF#350, he said he was on a long, and perilous journey to some unknown dimension and came back to set things straight. He restored Kristoff's memories and destroyed the Doombot that thought he was really Doom, even while in the Master's presence. Doom kept the parts of it for further study but it later turns up in a surprising way in Ed Brubaker's "Books of Doom"

The object moral of the story is not all Doombot appearances are "cheesy"... they did have a purpose in mind. Class dismissed. t:

 

[Iron Maiden]

At the risk of once more attacking Lightning by posting my very thoughts:

How is it possible for the first movie to have a robot? So, a robot proposed to Sue? A robot got so pissed at his appearance falling apart? A robot was imbued with all the passion and anger from the previous Doom?

Just another nugget of Doom history..... Modok once challenged him to construct a robotic duplicate of Bucky to use against Captain America. To Modok's disappointment, Doom did rise to the challenge and instilled enough of Bucky's personality that it refused to betray Captain America and overrode Modok's programming.

And as for robots and their attempts to impersonate humans, see "Blade Runner" t: . It seems a bit contradictory to accept some sci fi elements of the FF movie, i.e. that the cosmic rays changed their DNA, and not others.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Just another nugget of Doom history..... Modok once challenged him to construct a robotic duplicate of Bucky to use against Captain America. To Modok's disappointment, Doom did rise to the challenge and instilled enough of Bucky's personality that it refused to betray Captain America and overrode Modok's programming.

And as for robots and their attempts to impersonate humans, see "Blade Runner" t: . It seems a bit contradictory to accept some sci fi elements of the FF movie, i.e. that the cosmic rays changed their DNA, and not others.

Thank you. It is a possibility. And it's not like mainstream audiences are not already conditioned to the concept of cloning and cyborgs. These ideas are not new and I don't believe they would throw the audience as much as some believe.

However, I do like this idea:

if anything the human doom in the pic we have is the doom bot. the real doom is horribly disfigured and veryinsecure about his appearence, so he would create doombots that look like him before ff1 to do all of his socializing and business. what country would let an insane organic metal burn victom become the president? i bet he uses the doombots to appear infront of people, while he hides in his castle with his classic armor hiding his ugly ass disfigured body, watching a dozen different tvs that invade everyones privacy.

i bet the ff see this doombot and think "what the fu**! i thought u where a disgusting naked metal statue!" then thing clobbers him and finds out hes a robot.

As I've already mentioned, the possibilities are endless, but the one you've posted above would work even more seamlessly.

 

[Dragon]

I recall the Terminator was only a robot acting on behalf of the world computer... but he was damn threatening to Sarah Conner.

Exactly. The T-800 & 1000 were threatening. Who was cowering in fear of Skynet?

In the Matrix... Agent Smith was the immediate threat, but most certainly wasn't the true villain of the movie.

And which villain was the scary one?

How about Lord of the Rings? You never see Sauron... but the presence and threat is always hanging overhead.

Again, who was it that the audience feared? Not Sauron- but the immediate threat of the Orks and so forth.

Star Wars? The Emperor was the true villain but he didn't make a physical appearance until Return of the Jedi.

And until he appeared. Vader was the feared villain.

So... does Doom really need to be the one trading blows with the 4 for him to be perceived as a threat?

YES.