Overrated Batman writers

[Arkard]

Why the f~ck are people here such tight a~ses? I did not mean you princess, so you can start breathing normal again. Relax, OK? It's like you never had an opposing view on this board.
Get it through your head I am not making the claim of "overrated Morrison" based solely on issue #663, I REALLY think the majority of his Batman contribution is OK-ish at best. Here:
- Arkham Asylum is hardly a Batman novel. Much like Batman Returns. All around fun to watch but not a Batman related movie by a long shot. Yet people throw it in your face while screaming THIS IS THE DEFINITE BATMAN AND JOKER; And I couldnt care less if YOU have not heard it on THESE boards, (repeating myself) if I had not witnessed it to a sickening degree I would not bring it up now WOULD I?
- Gothic felt like a Fritz Lang rip-off;
- Batman & Son I hated...
- Issue 663... well you know.

And I am telling you, it does not matter HOW MUCH he wrote. The point being people lick the sweat of his dick for all he has done, and I feel that it is undeserved, thus I have all the right to call Grant Morrison and overrated Batman writer. If you still do not get it, THAT is ignorance and plain stupidity at it's purest.

 

[OtepApe]

Hahaha, wow.

It's been ages since I have seen a poster like you.

I am ignorant because I am not judging a guy based on a few issues. Do you even know what the word ignorant means??? I am going to guess no.

Also, I disagree with you and you feel the need to insult. Hippy and Princess, very original. I like the guys work, he has done some great stuff, although he has done some stuff that hasn't exactly enthralled me. His current Batman run so far.

You just don't like people disagreeing with you. I reckon you just talk and talk and talk and talk because you like the sound of your own voice.

People are going to have a different opinion to you, get over it. All I am saying is the guy hasn't done all that much work on Bats to be labled. Wow, I am such an ass.

Give me a break.

 

[Arkard]

You totally missed the point here. You ask me for definitions? Well I give you one: overrated. In order for something to be overrated, something needs to be measured and assesed by others. Morrison's work, small in size, has been rated by the majority of the "fans". The majority rated it high. To me, it was undeserved, so I call it overrated. No matter how many times you slice it, the number of Morrison's work does not matter, if I judge ALL of his Batman contribution, small in size it may be. Of coruse you CAN have your own definition of the word... but why? Why not jsut go with the correct one.

I dont feel "hippy" or "princess" is an insult, which just goes to show me you did not meet a person with an opposing view for ages. Someone older than 16 at least. You know, hippies around the world would be very unpleased you consider labeling others with the monicker of their culture an insult, you ass.

If you dont want to talk... just stop? Am I forcing you to reply? I dont need to have the last word here, I am seriously enjoying this little debate, but if you want to go all up in flames about my rampant rudness, I guess you have no real desire to talk in the first place. Cause people who dont have anything real to say, always forget that no matter how rude I may be, it will never take away from the fact I am right, or wrong. Concentrate here kid, read the message, RELAX.
Cause I knew there would be opposing posts here. I anticipated them. I like debates, which are not limited only to smiling and saying "I disagree" or "I agree". Grab a beer, stop being so tight, a bit of the old push-shove never hurt noone. And who would even be insulted by "princess" nowadays? Geez...

 

[OtepApe]

Yeah, you're right. I am such a dick. Thank you for being the one to point this out to me, I just wish I met someone with the backbone to truly look at me, thank you.

Hey, I love a good debate but there's only so long before we begin to repeat ourselves. It's obvious neither one of us is going to budge.

Plus, up in flames? Really? Ok, but I just thought I said there's no need for it. Wars have started for less, I see this now.

You throw these names out there to attempt to get an upper hand in the argument, it makes you feel special or something. Yes, I have also had an education. You are not the only one.

I like Morrison as a writer, I am not going to judge his Bats work as of yet. You have chosen to go the other way, I get this.

Thank you for playing.

 

[Arkard]

You insult all princesses and hippies out there by considering those names insults. I get my edge in a debate with facts. And not being so tight.
When did I ever call you a dick?

But see, this conversation has changed from the topic to talking ABOUT the thread and I have started to repeat myself. So I am going to leave it for now. I still recommend more relax in your diet, I heard pot is good for that.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Frank Miller but I don't have to state the reasons. People have said them and I'm not really in the mood to start any arguements or conversations yet...kinda tired...he has done good work...but some people just praise him and act like he created Batman.

 

[Motown Marvel]

i dont know how frank miller can be considered over rated. i'd say he's pretty fairly rated. lets look at his batman contributions and how the general comic fan feels about them:

year one- rad
dark knight returns- rad
dark knight strikes again- sucks
all star batman and raobin- sucks

his books that are good, people say are good. and his books that are bad people say are bad. so how is that over rated? i could understand him being considered over rated if people were saying his bad books are good, but they're not. he's ben pretty fairly rated, if you ask me.

 

[Arkard]

Who is to say what is "good" or what is "bad"?
Alot people do dislike Dark Knight Returns, and I have met genuine people who liked Strikes Again of all things. We cant base this sh~t on universal standards of "good/bad" cause there arent any.

 

[trustyside-kick]

They're all laughable.His Batman work is derivative, his Superman plain uninspired and hi Marvel stuff is just retelling a story for the sake of updating.It's all pretentious crap.

Do you feel this way about all retellings or remakes of things? Cause...let's use movies as examples...look at how many remakes there are and while not always, there are times where the remakes are just 852493857 times better or just as good (since you can't always beat the original but it does happen every now and then). I mean...look at The Departed and the Oscar's...it is a blend-remake of 3 chinese movies yet it won a good amount of awards at the Oscar's including Best Picture; yet it is not original.

Did you hate The Departed because it wasn't original? I'm not trying to get aggressive, I'm really just wondering because I know a crapload of people who were pissed that it was even nominated for anything since it's a remake; some of my movie-junkie (with degress and crap if it helps but whatever) friends. I figured this would be a good clear comparison to some of your hating of Loeb.

i dont know how frank miller can be considered over rated. i'd say he's pretty fairly rated. lets look at his batman contributions and how the general comic fan feels about them:

year one- rad
dark knight returns- rad
dark knight strikes again- sucks
all star batman and raobin- sucks

his books that are good, people say are good. and his books that are bad people say are bad. so how is that over rated? i could understand him being considered over rated if people were saying his bad books are good, but they're not. he's ben pretty fairly rated, if you ask me.

While I was too tired to give a huge explanation before...I basically said the main reason I feel he is overated:

...but some people just praise him and act like he created Batman.

Did DKR affect Batman at that time? Yes. But was that the first time he was written that way? Hell no. Look at when he was first created; he was actually even more darker when first created. Yet people act like because of DKR returns I should praise Miller for Batman being as he is now.

I know DKR and YO helped bring Batman out of the campy **** but I also don't see how Batman: Year One showed Batman as the badass people keep talking about; Gordon was characterized way more than Batman so how could you say that?

So what...cause of DKR and YO Miller gets credit? No...there is no one true person to get credit for Batman being who he is now; all of the writers have participated in who Batman is now. Only two people should ever diserve that type of credit: the people that actually created him o so long ago. I can respect Miller for what he did with those two stories but I'm not going to praise him for it. We are talking two stories out a crapload total.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I know. I've always been sorta pissed I can't enjoy '60s comics.

Yea. Sometimes it is just too much of a hassle to read the words that I end up not finishing. Although, one time I PMed silentflute actually a while back since I knew he was a huge fan of when I wasn't born (like O'Neil's stuff) and suggested some stories so I did check em out and was able to finish reading them even with the font and all. But a lot of the times I just don't cause of the hassle to read alone.

I feel the same about some current comics though or at least more recent ones. A lot of times you would see the character's thoughts in a scriptive font style which just annoys me cause I have to focus more just to read each word.

No, they are not the best, this is what this thread is about. First you give me all that crap how Morrison cannot be considered overrated, or if he is famous enough, now you go and tell me he is one of the best. This proves my point.

Huge problem with what you are saying. You say that because they are considered huge in the comic industry you made this thread...ahem...I look up and read "Overrated Batman writers". I don't see how you can respond to that when CConn says they are some of the best in the comic industry. Did he say Batman? No. Even IF he did feel they were the best Bat writers he did not say it in the quote you are replying to.

 

[Motown Marvel]

While I was too tired to give a huge explanation before...I basically said the main reason I feel he is overated:



Did DKR affect Batman at that time? Yes. But was that the first time he was written that way? Hell no. Look at when he was first created; he was actually even more darker when first created. Yet people act like because of DKR returns I should praise Miller for Batman being as he is now.

I know DKR and YO helped bring Batman out of the campy **** but I also don't see how Batman: Year One showed Batman as the badass people keep talking about; Gordon was characterized way more than Batman so how could you say that?

So what...cause of DKR and YO Miller gets credit? No...there is no one true person to get credit for Batman being who he is now; all of the writers have participated in who Batman is now. Only two people should ever diserve that type of credit: the people that actually created him o so long ago. I can respect Miller for what he did with those two stories but I'm not going to praise him for it. We are talking two stories out a crapload total.

i personally have never heard anyone crediting miller soley for what batman is today. thats not to say that people dont say that, i jsut havent heard it. and anyone who does say that is giving him unwarranted praise. but praise for what he did IS warranted, but only to an extent.

i think the mass praise for DKR isnt so much in regards soley to batman, but to comics in general. i mean, when that book came out, there was pretty much nothing like it ever in the mainstream. it was more serious and thought provoking and literate than any other mainstream superhero comic, and it really did have a HUGE impact on how comics were made after that. and it wasnt just miller and DKR thats responsible for that, alan moore and his work on watchmen and v for vendetta is also largely responsible. so, i dont think DKR is necessarily only important to batman, as much as it is to comics in general...it just happened to be in a batman book that this "revolution" took place. but it IS a really well written story that is worthy of great praise. is it responsible for batman today? partially. if anything, it did jump start something that may not have happened until later if DKR didnt happen.

 

[Motown Marvel]

While I was too tired to give a huge explanation before...I basically said the main reason I feel he is overated:



Did DKR affect Batman at that time? Yes. But was that the first time he was written that way? Hell no. Look at when he was first created; he was actually even more darker when first created. Yet people act like because of DKR returns I should praise Miller for Batman being as he is now.

I know DKR and YO helped bring Batman out of the campy **** but I also don't see how Batman: Year One showed Batman as the badass people keep talking about; Gordon was characterized way more than Batman so how could you say that?

So what...cause of DKR and YO Miller gets credit? No...there is no one true person to get credit for Batman being who he is now; all of the writers have participated in who Batman is now. Only two people should ever diserve that type of credit: the people that actually created him o so long ago. I can respect Miller for what he did with those two stories but I'm not going to praise him for it. We are talking two stories out a crapload total.

i personally have never heard anyone crediting miller soley for what batman is today. thats not to say that people dont say that, i jsut havent heard it. and anyone who does say that is giving him unwarranted praise. but praise for what he did IS warranted, but only to an extent.

i think the mass praise for DKR isnt so much in regards soley to batman, but to comics in general. i mean, when that book came out, there was pretty much nothing like it ever in the mainstream. it was more serious and thought provoking and literate than any other mainstream superhero comic, and it really did have a HUGE impact on how comics were made after that. and it wasnt just miller and DKR thats responsible for that, alan moore and his work on watchmen and v for vendetta is also largely responsible. so, i dont think DKR is necessarily only important to batman, as much as it is to comics in general...it just happened to be in a batman book that this "revolution" took place. but it IS a really well written story that is worthy of great praise. is it responsible for batman today? partially. if anything, it did jump start something that may not have happened until later if DKR didnt happen.

 

[silentflute]

Do you feel this way about all retellings or remakes of things? Cause...let's use movies as examples...look at how many remakes there are and while not always, there are times where the remakes are just 852493857 times better or just as good (since you can't always beat the original but it does happen every now and then). I mean...look at The Departed and the Oscar's...it is a blend-remake of 3 chinese movies yet it won a good amount of awards at the Oscar's including Best Picture; yet it is not original.

Trusty, my old sparring partner.How are ya?

Did you hate The Departed because it wasn't original?

Not at all.I have no problem with something being unoriginal as long as it's told well.These days it's almost impossible to find something that hasn't already been done.But it's the storyteller that makes it work.


Did DKR affect Batman at that time? Yes. But was that the first time he was written that way? Hell no. Look at when he was first created; he was actually even more darker when first created. Yet people act like because of DKR returns I should praise Miller for Batman being as he is now.
I know DKR and YO helped bring Batman out of the campy **** but I also don't see how Batman: Year One showed Batman as the badass people keep talking about; Gordon was characterized way more than Batman so how could you say that?

Gordon want' characterized more than Batman.That's a myth.Folks seem to think that because Gordon got an equal amount of time as Batman.That needed to be there in order to make the story work.There were parallels between Gordon's idealism and Bruce's.The story would have been much weaker if we hadn't gotten the Gordon characterization.

So what...cause of DKR and YO Miller gets credit? No...there is no one true person to get credit for Batman being who he is now; all of the writers have participated in who Batman is now. Only two people should ever diserve that type of credit: the people that actually created him o so long ago. I can respect Miller for what he did with those two stories but I'm not going to praise him for it. We are talking two stories out a crapload total.

No, we're not just talking about "two stories" and a crapload of stories.We're talking about two MAJOR stories that redefined the character for the generations to come. Batman- in every media- since 1986 has been influenced by YO and DKR. As for his other two stories(one of which isn't even completed)-that's debatable-you either hate it, or think it's ok(but not in the same league as DKR and YO).The point is the scale on Miller's work is definitly leaning to the great stuff because of the sheer magnititude of those first two stories.As opposed to just a writer who had "two good stories and two bad stories".

 

[SpideyInATree]

i dont know how frank miller can be considered over rated. i'd say he's pretty fairly rated. lets look at his batman contributions and how the general comic fan feels about them:

year one- rad
dark knight returns- rad
dark knight strikes again- sucks
all star batman and raobin- sucks

his books that are good, people say are good. and his books that are bad people say are bad. so how is that over rated? i could understand him being considered over rated if people were saying his bad books are good, but they're not. he's ben pretty fairly rated, if you ask me.

When I say Miller is overrated as a Batman writer I'm not saying that all the stories he wrote were bad. Yeah, Year One and Dark Knight Returns are solid Batman stories and all around good but they are not the say all/end all of Batman stories. If you ask me Paul Pope did a better futuristic Batman story in Year 100. Matt Wagner did a better early Batman with his solid stories in Monster Men and The Mad Monk. Just because the guy wrote Year One, which was more focused on Commissioner Gordon than Batman, doesn't mean that he's the greatest Batman writer. So, yeah, he's overrated as a Batman writer because he isn't the God of Batman like the way a lot of Batman fans treat him.

 

[Motown Marvel]

When I say Miller is overrated as a Batman writer I'm not saying that all the stories he wrote were bad. Yeah, Year One and Dark Knight Returns are solid Batman stories and all around good but they are not the say all/end all of Batman stories. If you ask me Paul Pope did a better futuristic Batman story in Year 100. Matt Wagner did a better early Batman with his solid stories in Monster Men and The Mad Monk. Just because the guy wrote Year One, which was more focused on Commissioner Gordon than Batman, doesn't mean that he's the greatest Batman writer. So, yeah, he's overrated as a Batman writer because he isn't the God of Batman like the way a lot of Batman fans treat him.

yeah, but the fans who say he's "god" when it comes to batman are pretty few and far between. when you take a look at the general consensus here, he's pretty fairly rated, as in most people really like his good work and really hate his bad work. i mean, with just about any writer and/or artist theres gonna be a few people who totally over rate them, but that doesnt mean they're over rated in general by fans. personally, i dont think i've once seen anyone here say he's the greatest batman writer, nor have i seen anyone treat him like he's god's gift to batman. i've actually witnessed quite the contrary. most people here never want to see him touch batman again because of his 2 bad takes on the character, completely disregarding his 2 successful takes on the character.

 

[CLARKY]

Frank Miller

agreed

Grant Morrison

Well I didn't read everything from him, and so far I disliked what he wrote. Overrated ... ? ... From my point of view, maybe yes.
BTW, I used to love Jeph Loeb, and I think he is a good writer but, I admit, I think he is a little overrated as well.

 

[blind_fury]

Nolan and Goyer.

 

[The Empire Ape]

Nolan and Goyer.

And Loeb.

 

[silentflute]

When I say Miller is overrated as a Batman writer I'm not saying that all the stories he wrote were bad. Yeah, Year One and Dark Knight Returns are solid Batman stories and all around good but they are not the say all/end all of Batman stories.

Name some that have had equal impact on the character.



If you ask me Paul Pope did a better futuristic Batman story in Year 100.

Yeah ok.


Matt Wagner did a better early Batman with his solid stories in Monster Men and The Mad Monk.

You're joking, right?

Just because the guy wrote Year One, which was more focused on Commissioner Gordon than Batman, doesn't mean that he's the greatest Batman writer.

Year One was not more focused on Gordon.The focus was even on both characters, so it may have seemed Gordon got more time than Batman.Batman magz usually don't give any focus on anyone other than Batman, so the effect was multiplied.


So, yeah, he's overrated as a Batman writer because he isn't the God of Batman like the way a lot of Batman fans treat him.

He got the character the most recognition and respect (other than Kane , Robinson and Finger)

 

[CConn]

Name some that have had equal impact on the character.

Bill Finger, Julie Schwartz, and Denny O'Neil.

You're joking, right?

No, he just has an opinion you don't share.

Year One was not more focused on Gordon.The focus was even on both characters, so it may have seemed Gordon got more time than Batman.Batman magz usually don't give any focus on anyone other than Batman, so the effect was multiplied.

Possibly. But that doesn't change the fact a lot of people feel Gordon had too big of a role in the book.

He got the character the most recognition and respect (other than Kane , Robinson and Finger)

Then wrote "I'm the Goddamn Batman!", and everyone laughed.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I cannot stand that line...I know this may not be 100% accurate, but...

"What are you dense? Are you ******ed? I'm the goddamn Batman!"

I hate that f***ing line.

 

[silentflute]

I cannot stand that line...I know this may not be 100% accurate, but...

"What are you dense? Are you ******ed? I'm the goddamn Batman!"

I hate that f***ing line.

Stop lying, you love it.

 

[silentflute]

Bill Finger, Julie Schwartz, and Denny O'Neil.

Granted.But not with the same media coverage.Actually, I thought O'Neil almost achieved it on Miller's scale with Green Lantern/Green Arrow.



Possibly. But that doesn't change the fact a lot of people feel Gordon had too big of a role in the book.

Ok.But then it's their job to realize that it's in their head, and not the truth.Right?


Then wrote "I'm the Goddamn Batman!", and everyone laughed.

Yeah, but... Bruce is egocentric enough -that you could see him saying that while trying to intimidate the kid. Hilarious.The character should have a dorky moment or two.I mean, he's enough of a geek that he designs his vehicles to match his Bat symbols...t:

 

[trustyside-kick]

Name some that have had equal impact on the character.

Bill Finger, Julie Schwartz, and Denny O'Neil.

Granted.But not with the same media coverage.Actually, I thought O'Neil almost achieved it on Miller's scale with Green Lantern/Green Arrow.

It isn't the comics, but...wouldn't the BTAS team be on that list as well?

 

[CConn]

Granted.But not with the same media coverage.Actually, I thought O'Neil almost achieved it on Miller's scale with Green Lantern/Green Arrow.

But media coverage does not equal quality. In fact, I'd say media coverage plays a large part in making something overrated.

Ok.But then it's their job to realize that it's in their head, and not the truth.Right?

It was pretty obvious to me he was mainly talking about his own opinion.

But what is the truth? What you personally like? What most people seem to like? Now, I wasn't around in '87 to see the initial reaction, but nowadays, while yes, Year One is usually listed as one of the best graphic novels ever. So are books like The Long Halloween and Superman For All Seasons.

If you can go around talking about what a hack Jeph Loeb is, what's wrong with SIAT saying Matt Wagner is as good as Frank Miller?

Yeah, but... Bruce is egocentric enough -that you could see him saying that while trying to intimidate the kid. Hilarious.The character should have a dorky moment or two.I mean, he's enough of a geek that he designs his vehicles to match his Bat symbols...t:

Still ironic that the guy who made Batman "respectful" again would go on to make jokes out of him.