Oz: The Great and Powerful

[Ultimatehero]

You can still have the notion of her being captured, it would link her more to the witch and overall plot. However, she doesn't necessarily need to die. We are talking about a man who loves a little too much and gets angry a little too fast. He thrives on his emotions. So when he's angry, he's kind of like Anakin Skywalker in 'Attack of the Clones.' Just seeing her there would cause him to lash out and go for the attack. Possibly this action both costs him his life and allows Oz a chance to free her. So Nick is able to rescue her, but before he can live happily ever after this moment takes it all away from him. When he wakes he sees something that tells him that she's safe, but he blames himself since his emotions could have easily led to her death. Basically she doesn't need to die for the same results. And his belief that he failed, rather than that being the reality of the situation makes him a really tragic character. Here he is being seeing as a hero, but he believes he's let everyone down. It plays with Baum's whole believed-to be vs. reality theme. And it leaves it open to further explore in later films part of the subplot from 'The Tin Woodman of Oz.'

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

You can still have the notion of her being captured, it would link her more to the witch and overall plot. However, she doesn't necessarily need to die. We are talking about a man who loves a little too much and gets angry a little too fast. He thrives on his emotions. So when he's angry, he's kind of like Anakin Skywalker in 'Attack of the Clones.' Just seeing her there would cause him to lash out and go for the attack. Possibly this action both costs him his life and allows Oz a chance to free her. So Nick is able to rescue her, but before he can live happily ever after this moment is taken away from him. Basically she doesn't need to die for the same results. And it leaves it open to further explore in later films part of the subplot from 'The Tin Woodman of Oz.'

Oh yeah, she doesn't need to die. I'm just saying I would like to see that route because it pays off better to me, personally. It's a love he would never get back(sometimes a sad truth of life), but that doesn't stop him from finding the light in life again and finally being able to genuinely feel love and compassion for others (like Dorothy) once more.

I think her dying would perfectly get the fact that he gets too angry too fast. The witch knows that Nick will be on his guard, but she also knows that Nick will be thrown off guard if she does kill his love, and this would probably make him an easier target since his heart has been affected. Having the witch cackle as Nick cradles the body of his love, while his eyes well up with anger would make for a strong emotional moment. Oz sees all of this, and tries to stop Nick because he knows that's exactly what the Witch wants to happen, but Nick is running on pure emotion right now and is still a sensitive, headstrong, young man who has just had his true love yanked out of his life permanently. His anger would understandably be too strong to listen to Oz, and he would try to go in for the kill.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I think something like that is a fate worse than death, so instead of killing Nick, the Witch would turn him into the Tin Man instead. That way he won't ever die and he can't reunite with his love in the afterlife. It's a cruel thing to do, but it's something a wicked witch would do.

 

[Ultimatehero]

While it sounds good in theory to me, the other part is seriously questioning because it seems too dark. While you can play with the dark fairy tale notions, I don't think it should ever go too dark or it would risk losing it's tone and overall atmosphere. That would be interesting in a more grown-up version, PG-13. But, here it just seems like it would be way too dark for children in a disney film to actually see someone die like that. That's my main overall issue with it. And why I say you can have that, but a more kid-friendly approach to it. Having a man turn to tin while dark and scary, it's still someone still alive. It has that dark fairy tale element to it. Actually seeing someone die -- it just doesn't seem like something one would find in a disney family film.

 

[Ajendo]

Just saw this. It was alright. Mila Kunis is so flippin' hot! When she takes off her hat and let's her hair down, damn...I would have married her there and then.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

While it sounds good in theory to me, the other part is seriously questioning because it seems too dark. While you can play with the dark fairy tale notions, I don't think it should ever go too dark or it would risk losing it's tone and overall atmosphere. That would be interesting in a more grown-up version. But, here it just seems like it would be way too dark for children in a disney film. That's my main overall issue with it.

I don't think it would be too dark. Death is apart of life, and Disney has no problem with on screen death. Look at The Avengers with Coulson as a recent example.

Not to mention that Episode 7 will probably have death. But anyway, Oz should have things like that because although it is a fairy tale, it is very real and like life, has darkness as well as the light. Not to mention that the point is to get people to relate to these characters and world, and themes like that are really a great way to do it. There are real risks in Oz, and the Wicked Witch is not to be trifled. It shouldn't be too dark for her at all and wouldn't risk ruining the tone that the movie has set thus far.

 

[Ultimatehero]

The Avengers is PG-13.

Star Wars is now PG-13.

Disney as a company is one thing, but here we're talking about Disney PG family films which should be suitable for kids 5 and older if not younger.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

The Avengers is PG-13.

Star Wars is now PG-13.

Disney as a company is one thing, but here we're talking about Disney PG family films.

An on screen death is not too dark for a family film. Look at Lion King. It's how the death is handled that matters. Plus, I don't see why future Oz movies can't possibly be PG-13. I expect things to get darker as the wicked witch's influence spreads with each passing movie. Not to mention that the Oz books were never meant to be completely light fairy tales in the first place. They have dark elements. Nothing's wrong with a little maturity because that pulls the adults in. As long as it doesn't alienate the children it's fine, and a death like the one I've explained should not. Things do change, and it's not like rating it PG-13 would affect it's BO intake in the long run.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Lion King you saw Mufassa falling - then you were back in Simba's point of view. It was basically a different set-up. Oz suddenly becoming PG-13 would cause many people to question. It would also be seen as too dark for kids 5 and younger. While adults want something more "mature" or "grown-up," here I just see a possible back lash due to being too dark when overall you can achieve the same things while still making it kid-friendly. This is kind of one of those areas where it's hard to give up, because you really want it to be darker in certain areas but when it comes down to the executives and etc. it would be demanded to go lighter for smaller children.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Lion King you saw Mufassa falling - then you were back in Simba's point of view. It was basically a different set-up. Oz suddenly becoming PG-13 would cause many people to question. It would also be seen as too dark for kids 5 and younger. While adults want something more "mature" or "grown-up," here I just see a possible back lash due to being too dark when overall you can achieve the same things while still making it kid-friendly.

It would not cause many people to question. Not even that, but Avengers being PG-13 did not stop parents from taking their 5 year olds(and younger kids as well) to see it. It's not like it's going to be overly dark so much that it alienates the current audience viewing these movies. Also, you wouldn't see the Witch killing the girl in any gruesome form. Just with dark magic, and then we'd see Nick Chopper cradling her body. Similar to how we saw Simba crawl up under the arm of his dead father and lie with him. Not really different. I mean, hell, we even saw Scar deliberately throw Mufasa off of the cliff. That is outright murder and it did not stop parents from taking their children to see the movie. It wouldn't be a big deal and it makes the story stronger, imo.

 

[Super Kal]

Disney has made some PG-13 movies in the past... Pirates Of The Caribbean, John Carter, Once Upon a Warrior... they havent made many though, but i dont see a problem with Disney making a PG-13 movie

 

[ThePhantasm]

Was Burton's Alice not PG-13?

 

[Ultimatehero]

Okay, I think my imagination is just seeing things really morbid then. A magic death would be treading the line, but would be cartoon-friendly enough that it could still fit into a PG film possibly. For example, cutting off her air supply or just knocking her out with a single spell. Because usually the only way to get away with using something as dark as how dark I thought you were thinking - Joker level dark while killing Rachel - you'd need to have it be absolutely integral to the plot and story. Alice was PG.

 

[ThePhantasm]

In Little Mermaid Ursula dies by being speared through with the front of a ship.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Which it would be. It's perfectly integral to the plot and story. Not to mention future stories as well.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Was Burton's Alice not PG-13?

It was, I forgot that.

Edit: actually no, wrong google link. It wasn't.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Usually when there's a way around it, studios do ask for you to "pack the same emotional beat, just without going that far." I have three deaths, actually, in the adaptation you know about - but worked in in such a way that the executives can't say, "that's too dark, make it a little lighter" because there's no other place for it to go. If the characters live, it not only wouldn't strike the same emotional chords - it would cut off how things absolutely need to develop thereafter in that there is no other alternative. And even there I'm waiting for them to say "too dark" and for me to need to defend it. For example if Simba's dad just sprained his leg, there would be no story -- therefore he absolutely had to die. Whereas here I don't see a major major difference between her dying and seeing that his actions could have killed her, both get the Tin Man to go into exile.

Alice was PG...

 

[Super Kal]

i think it all depends on how graphic the death is.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Usually when there's a way around it, studios do ask for you to "pack the same emotional beat, just without going that far." I have three deaths, actually, in the adaptation you know about - but worked in in such a way that the executives can't say, "that's too dark, make it a little lighter" because there's no other place for it to go. If the characters live, it not only wouldn't strike the same emotional chords - it would cut off how things absolutely need to develop thereafter in that there is no other alternative. And even there I'm waiting for them to say "too dark" and for me to need to defend it.

I honestly don't think they'd see something like that as so dark that it can't be in the movie. Especially when it's something that makes the story of Nick better(imo). Their history with how they've handled death just doesn't fit with that. I understand why you think they might say that, but I don't think they would.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

i think it all depends on how graphic the death is.

Yeah, that's what I think. And it wouldn't even be graphic, just the Witch using her magic on the poor girl.

I've never dealt with Disney personally, so I can't be certain. It's just what I think.

 

[Ultimatehero]

As someone said it all depends on how it's shown. There would be certain restrictions in how far it could be shown though. And they'd also ask the question of whether the same thing could be achieved without making it that dark if it always comes out seeming dark. Because Disney seems to be aiming at the PG-family friendly audience rather than the Star Wars kind of audience here. It would be all studios questioning if there's an alternative, not just Disney. One trick -- or at least I think -- is to work it into a corner where they say, "yeah, not only does it make the story stronger but there is absolutely no other way to do it."

Deaths that could work:
- She turns into a frog or an insect
- She is knocked out in a single spell
- She loses her air supply

All are usually deemed "magical" and you can actually go over some boundaries that way because it's "cartoon-like violence."

 

[ThePhantasm]

Disney seems to be aiming at the PG-family friendly audience rather than the Star Wars kind of audience.

All the Star Wars movies were PG except for ROTS.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

As someone said it all depends on how it's shown. There would be certain restrictions in how far it could be shown though. And they'd also ask the question of whether the same thing could be achieved without making it that dark if it always comes out seeming dark. Because Disney seems to be aiming at the PG-family friendly audience rather than the Star Wars kind of audience.

Yes I pointed that out in an earlier post as well as Super Kal in his most recent. That's the thing, though. We don't know if an Oz sequel would be darker and a bit more mature(so it might not be an issue, and it makes sense for it to get darker since the influence of the wicked witch is spreading), and once again, there would be nothing in there so dark that it alienates the audience. And also, including that death would not automatically make it PG-13. At least, I don't think so. I don't recall Lion King being PG-13 because of that.

Disney seems to be aiming at the family/fantasy audience with Oz period, but that does not mean the movies cannot get a bit darker for good reason.

 

[Ultimatehero]

All the Star Wars movies were PG except for ROTS.

I wonder if the MPAA has gotten more strict then, because John Carter was in no ways darker than Attack of the Clones...

And as stated, the only way I see it is working them into a corner. If the story is at the point where something can ONLY happen and there's no other alternatives around that -- then you can get them to bend over. For example, Qui Gon Jin getting stabbed - no only did it make for more of an emotional impact it also led to there being no other possible alternative.

I've just seen several notes and stories about things in films that had to be changed because it was deemed "too dark" since the company was aiming it towards children and families rather than teenagers. And the usual way around this is - give them no other alternatives. Not only does it pack a moment, but it also has it so that without it it wouldn't work at all.

Simba's dad falls out of eye-sight. As said "magic" works within bounds, "cartoon violence" can accompany a lot -- without magic, you're risking a lot. But with magic, somehow it's fine.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Anyone remember how horrible Mother Gothel's death was in Tangled? Now that was pretty horrifying. Disney has no problem with on screen deaths, and this one was even more okay because it was "magical", in a sense. Seems in line with what I'm proposing, although, I'm not trying to have Nick's love turned into a pile of ash.