Phoenix: Did you like her explanation?

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I would buy this if it weren't for Xavier's explanation of their being two personalities within Jean Grey . . . one is Jean the other is the Phoenix. It's not that Jean was simply overcome with power driving her insane. It's presented that she's always had a dark side that Xavier had suppressed, and as for becoming too powerful, it seems that Jean's power has always been there, growing and waiting to be released (hence everyone's explanation of a dam breaking and the power finally bursting through) . . . it was just unbeknownst to Jean Grey. So if the Phoenix personality has always been there (who revels in passion and power), and the power has always been there, why doesn't the Phoenix side burst through earlier (like when Xavier's talking to the Phoenix in one of their apparent previous sessions)?

Because she was still young and undeveloped.

I believe in the movie, Xavier only mentions that the potential was there.

So essentially, he put the blocks up before the Phoenix alter ego could become too powerful.

Hence, nipping it in the bud.

 

[The Guard]

I'm pretty sure Xavier suppressed "Phoenix" with the psychic blocks. Not Jean's power.

 

[BMM]

Because she was still young and undeveloped.

I believe in the movie, Xavier only mentions that the potential was there.

So essentially, he put the blocks up before the Phoenix alter ego could become too powerful.

Hence, nipping it in the bud.

Okay, I can see the nipping it in the bud argument. I was viewing it a bit differently. I really wish they would have further explored the Phoenix concept rather than moreso relegating it to the sideline.

 

[BMM]

I'm pretty sure Xavier suppressed "Phoenix" with the psychic blocks. Not Jean's power.

I'm thinking the two kind of have to go hand in hand . . . because it's not as though only the Phoenix personality was seeping through with the breaking of the psychic barriers. I'm thinking that in order for X3's explanation to work it would have to be both her powers in conjunction with the power-crazy alternate personality.

Because if the power wasn't suppressed why wouldn't Jean just be able to use it otherwise beforehand?

 

[theJust]

she was a real b*tch as a kid. i wanted to slap her!
but yea the explanation was just dandy, i never liked the phoenix saga, and im a huge fan of the xmen. i just dont like the space atmosphere, or alternate dimensions. its fantastical enough them being mutants and heroes, then you gotta go and do all that extra jazz...ack!
same way with juggernaut and his crystal, i can see that it makes it more believable that hes unstoppable, cause its some other sort of force behind it all, but for the movie it was fine he was just a mutant.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

I don't get it. Explain to me one thing, please. Why was it funny to call herself "Phoenix"?

 

[panel0n]

I thought they handled the phoenix PERFECTLY. Good enough to make solid, reality sense and to fit with the past movies.

Im too lazy to explain deeper.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Well my problem with his explanation in this movie was why would this second personality call herself Pheonix given there were no flames or bird, nor did she resurrect herself from her ashes (when she was a youth) so why would she call herself that.

 

[WideAwake]

I didn't really like it.
X1 and 2 imply that Jean's powers grew due to the radiation from Magneto's machine. X3 basically goes back and says that Jean was always this powerful, but that it was kept under control by Xavier's mental blocks. If those were gone by X2, when her powers already got beyond her control, wouldn't he have sensed that?

As mentioned above, the way X3 explains the Phoenix is in contradiction with X1 and 2. There is nothing in those movies that hints to that, nor is it something that is set up in the Jean prologue. To me, it also feels a bit dragged in, more like something to please the fans.

The way the could have handled it, was to have a young Jean totally devastated by the death of her friend. Her emotions are totally in control of her powers; she randomly reads minds or lifts objects, kinda like the museum scene in X2. Then, Xavier puts the mental blocks in her mind, and she becomes the Jean we know from X1 and 2.

After her "death" the blocks are gone, and she is no longer in control of her expanded power, like when she was younger.
Magneto could want her to join him, since it was his machine that expanded her power, and it makes him feel even more God-like. He could rename her Phoenix, because she's risen from the dead, and a new person. Kinda like he encouraged Pyro to do away with his "slave name": "What is your real name, John?"

 

[Cyke82]

First of all Nell2ThaIzzay, I'd like to thank you for being the first person to not only claim this made sense but also take a stab at addressing my huge post about why it didn't make sense. It seemed like most everyone else was just content in saying it made sense and ignoring the argument against it as if it didn't exist.

With that said...

Why in X2 did she not manifest as the Phoenix when using those awesome displays of power? Because she was just realizing the true power she had.

I don't find this to be a very satisfactory explanation, honestly.

We know that the Phoenix personality had presented itself to Xavier in their private sessions, so it existed and, like the stronger powers, was being held back by the blocks. Therefore any breach of the mental barriers should have not only allowed access to the powers but also the personality.

Only it didn't, and that's an inconsistency.

Explaining it away by saying, "She'd only just because to realize her power" makes no sense. Even if you take the stance that her barriers aren't all or nothing and that she only gets access to a little bit of that power that is slipping through, then SOME personality should be as well. Not only that, but Jean can't control the powers at first, so how could she hold back the personality? The truth is she shouldn't have been able to, but that's the only explanation that would make sense as to why she could access the power but not the personality.

Thus, it does not make sense.

She never fully realized her powers, and hence, the Phoenix alter ego never took hold.

Okay, so running with your logic, the Phoenix doesn't take control because Jean never fully realized her powers. Thus, we can conclude that the Phoenix alter ego would take hold when Jean actually did fully realize her powers...

With everything that she did... she fully realized her powers.

...yet no Phoenix! Not even a hint! In fact, Jean's selfless and noble actions are the exact opposite of the rage and selfish desire that Phoenix represents!

And you claim that's because at that point...

Her powers had not been fully realized.

What?!!! You just said she had fully realized her powers!

You're not even being consistent in your own argument - first she didn't fully realize them. Then she did. Now she didn't.

And this is supposed to make TOTAL sense?

I'm pretty sure Xavier suppressed "Phoenix" with the psychic blocks. Not Jean's power.

Nope. Xavier specifically says that he created the barriers to "isolate her powers from her conscious mind" and the Phoenix personality developed as a result of this. When Xavier created the blocks, there effectively was no Phoenix at all. In essence, he created it.

 

[Razorbat]

As I interpreted it, it wasn't the machine on liberty island that started to free Phoenix, it was her actions. She was straining herself and her powers, trying to hold Logan steady through the force of Storm's winds. Up until then, we hadn't seen her do much with her telekinesis and suddenly she's fighting against winds powerful enough to lift a 300 pound man into the air. I think this effort created a crack in her mental blocks, and her full powers began to seep through (X2). With her full potential freed, her second personality was also set loose.

 

[Cyke82]

If those were gone by X2, when her powers already got beyond her control, wouldn't he have sensed that?

Indeed, that's another good point. Xavier admits to having private sessions with Jean in X3, so he obviously was actively part of her development and, because of his interaction with the Phoenix personality in those sessions, was actively involved in monitoring the blocks. We're supposed to believe that suddenly stopped after Liberty Island, and he had no knowledge of the powers Jean was accessing? Unlikely, but again, that's what we're meant to believe.

I said this before, and I stand by it - what this seems like to me is poor writing that some fans are trying to justify, when had it been written well in the first place, no justification or explanation from fans would be needed.

It seems pretty clear to me that Kinberg and Penn (or whoever came up with the Phoenix explanation) paid little regard to what had been previously established in the first two movies. They created a background where Xavier creates mind blocks to hold back Jean's power, even though in X2 Xavier shows no concern for any kind of mind blocks as Jean's power increases. They created a background where a dual personality was within Jean, hiding with her dormant powers, yet this personality doesn't appear at all when Jean taps into these powers in X2.

And what's sad is that when you watch this supposed trilogy together, it's going to appear exactly as how it was created - two movies with the same vision and a third that is very different. And that's disappointing.

 

[Lil_Flip246]

In the comics, the Phoenix was a cosmic force of limitless power that duplicated Jean Grey's body/personality so perfectly (with the exception of course, of giving her god-like power levels) that even it itself forgot that it was not the true Jean Grey. This as opposed to the movie version: which depicts Phoenix as a split half of Jean's personality and a natural evolution of her power. Source: Wikipedia

 

[X-Maniac]

Indeed, that's another good point. Xavier admits to having private sessions with Jean in X3, so he obviously was actively part of her development and, because of his interaction with the Phoenix personality in those sessions, was actively involved in monitoring the blocks. We're supposed to believe that suddenly stopped after Liberty Island, and he had no knowledge of the powers Jean was accessing? Unlikely, but again, that's what we're meant to believe.

I said this before, and I stand by it - what this seems like to me is poor writing that some fans are trying to justify, when had it been written well in the first place, no justification or explanation from fans would be needed.

It seems pretty clear to me that Kinberg and Penn (or whoever came up with the Phoenix explanation) paid little regard to what had been previously established in the first two movies. They created a background where Xavier creates mind blocks to hold back Jean's power, even though in X2 Xavier shows no concern for any kind of mind blocks as Jean's power increases. They created a background where a dual personality was within Jean, hiding with her dormant powers, yet this personality doesn't appear at all when Jean taps into these powers in X2.

And what's sad is that when you watch this supposed trilogy together, it's going to appear exactly as how it was created - two movies with the same vision and a third that is very different. And that's disappointing.

I think you are wrapping yourself up in over-analysis and misinterpretation.

Jean's 'Phoenix' side was restrained by Xavier, as he says in X3. He placed blocks on that subconscious part of her mind.

She was not allowed to use Cerebro, but in X1 she did...thus beginning the breakdown of those barriers, as Cerebro amplifies psi-powers. Then the radiation from Magneto's machine did more damage to the barriers. The 'Phoenix' was beginning to seep through... It was happening in a subtle, sporadic way. With Xavier captured in most of X2, he wouldn't be aware of everything going on with Jean.

During X2, the Phoenix was breaking down the barriers. It only really emerged at the very end of X2, when we see a symbolic phoenix flying under the water after Jean's death. With the apparent death or coma state of her conscious mind, the Phoenix was well and truly free. No restraints, just sheer unrestrained joy, as seen in that bird soaring through the waters of the lake.

Therefore, when Scott's blast shatters the telekinetic cocoon under the lake, Jean returns with the Phoenix side of her no longer restrained by Xavier's blocks. There is an inner struggle between Jean and 'Phoenix'.

Xavier's powers did not always detect what was going on, just as he isn't aware of every single thought of every single person. These are not perfect beings with perfect powers, they have flaws, they have moments where their powers do not work perfectly and totally. If Xavier was totally aware of what everyone everywhere was thinking all of the time, most of the three movies need never have happened.

You are more caught up in the analysis than in enjoying the experience of what is a piece of fantasy fiction at the end of the day.

When someone serves you a wonderful meal, do you begin to worry about the size and design of the plate and cutlery and how the meal was cooked and how heavy that piece of steak is, and what type of potato those fries were made from, and where those tomatoes in the salad were grown and what the name of the farmer was who grew them.. or do you just get on and enjoy it?!!! I know what I'd rather do.

 

[J.Howlett]

Maniac,

That still doesn't change the fact that the Phoenix personality, which in The Last Stand Xavier says exist, never reveals itself in either X-Men or X2.

The way those films were implying it was that she was evolving into something more, something else. Even Singer on the audio commentary of X2 states that at the time of Jean's sacrifice, that she is evolving. She's changing, not that another personality was revealing itself.

There was not a hint of rage or anger when Phoenix appeared in X2 like there was in The Last Stand, which is described as the more lethal creature in the unconscious part of her mind.

 

[Bastila]

Yeah it was good but i wished that they explained that Phoenix is good as well, not only evil.

 

[J.Howlett]

See, the explaination in the film would've worked had we seen the Phoenix side that was caught a glimpse of in X2 at the end. In this film, we only saw the Dark Side of the Phoenix.

Again, there should've been some down time in the middle of the film with Jean alive and well but changed and no hint of the Dark Side but also knowing that she's very different than she was.

 

[Bastila]

See, the explaination in the film would've worked had we seen the Phoenix side that was caught a glimpse of in X2 at the end. In this film, we only saw the Dark Side of the Phoenix.

Again, there should've been some down time in the middle of the film with Jean alive and well but changed and no hint of the Dark Side but also knowing that she's very different than she was.

See i just posted in the Jean thread what i think we see in X2. What we see is Jean becoming Phoenix but the 'good' Phoenix and thats what she looks like when she is good. In X3 they make Phoenix bad straight away i really wanted them to show good Phoenix.

 

[J.Howlett]

Yep. That's the problem right there.

See, it was an opportunity to do two things had they shown the good Phoenix. First, Xavier and Jean could've had a session where Xavier tried to talk to her to understand what specifically happened to her.

Next, had Scott stayed alive, he would've been able to see the good Phoenix and then experience the evil Phoenix yet again and possibily put him into a coma instead of killing him. Logan, as in the film, could experience both sides as well and getting knocked out like he does in the film.

 

[Phoenix_Rising]

Sorry but having both the good and evil phoenix would have been too confusing, particularly for the general public. We had enough alter egos there, the confused child-like Jean, the Jean we all know and love and the evil side of Jean. Xavier's speech worked as for people who haven't seen the previous films would now understand what was happening to Jean. It is still a form of evolution, as her powers were being suppressed and as a result of that have broken through and evolved, except it has a more personal level as it is Xavier who is in a way responsible for this almost unnatural evolution of Jean's powers. I mean come on think about it, you have the final battle where Jean is basically destorying everything and suddenly a firebird pops up behind and she's like 'actually what am I doing I am the phoenix a good entity of light and I must save my fellow X-men and destroy Magneto' Yeah I'm thinking that wouldn't have worked, instead it would have broken the dramatic climax and build up to Wolverine being forced to kill her. I believe that people expect these movies to be too much like the comics, I mean they are based on the comics but this is the movieverse a completely seperate part of the X-men universe. This film I think was the most faithful to the comics and for that we should all be very grateful instead of bashing this film because of the smallest details of the comic books which really wouldn't enhance the story of the film at all, thank you and good night!

 

[TrailerMusic]

i really wanted them to show good Phoenix.

Whos to say they wont in X4 ? Pheonix is about "rebirth" & now that Jean herself knows just what the kind of being Pheonix can be whos to say Second Time around Jean wont learn to Control it ? Bad Pheonix is something Jean never knew existed. Now she does. I think Jean should be back as Good Pheonix in X4 & once the Professor is fully back she should let him help her THE RIGHT WAY

 

[Banshee]

It was one of the only parts of the movie I liked.

 

[Bastila]

Whos to say they wont in X4 ? Pheonix is about "rebirth" & now that Jean herself knows just what the kind of being Pheonix can be whos to say Second Time around Jean wont learn to Control it ? Bad Pheonix is something Jean never knew existed. Now she does. I think Jean should be back as Good Pheonix in X4 & once the Professor is fully back she should let him help her THE RIGHT WAY

You know i hope that happens.

 

[J.Howlett]

It's not a form of evolution if her powers were already there and were just supressed. The writers can call it that but that's not evolution.

On top of all of that, we didn't really need Jean's flashback/backstory had they stayed consistent with the previous film.

They should've explored, within the film, Jean's return and from there we would've/could've all learned that Jean's powers had evolved and through a series of unfornuate events, see that she can't control them and that she's evolving into something more deadly than any cure when it comes to human and mutant kind.

That's how it should've gone, instead of speeding through the story like it is now. It really doesn't work in conjuntion with the previous films. As Cyke said, it's disjointed now.

 

[the_scream]

It would make more sense if they said the machine from X1 unlocked her dormant mutant gene. Beast could be introduced as another character who was affected by the machine in X1 as a similar thing happened to the character in the comics.