The Dark Knight Plot holes in the bank heist

[Hole Shot]

You know, why hasn't an official "TDK Plot Holes Thread" been made? That subject matter can be discussed endlessly.

We've gone around and around and around on this. So yeah, it could go endlessly. Most people disagree over whether something is a plot hole or not and ....the definition of a plot hole

 

[Jodo]

Ok so there's several problems with the bank robbery prologue scene that I noticed after repeated viewings. I'm going to point out a few of them in chronological order.
1. When the car pulled up, the Joker must not have been wearing makeup. The goons driving would have seen him with Joker makeup or ever with scars. Even if it was for a second.
2. His hair started out brown, not green, how'd that happen?
3. Chuckles got shot by the bank manager, how had Joker planned on him dying? The goons were all supposed to bump each other off.
4. Grumpy was supposed to kill the safe guy.
5. Was the bus driver supposed to kill grumpy or did he just happen to be standing on the right spot? If Joker expected that to work as part of the plan that's downright ******ed.
6. How was Grumpy supposed to die? If Joker kills the bus driver was he just supposed to die by chance? Remember Joker tried to get the bank manager to shoot him "he's out right?"
7. "He can't resist showing us his face" when was that picture taken? Joker was in the lobby with the bank manager and the citizens the whole time. Even when grumpy was loading the vault he couldn't have posed for the camera like that.
8. The bus. How on earth can it pull out of the building and fit right in line? That's highly contrived.

Don't get me wrong I love the scene, but the plan isn't nearly as amazing or fullproof as we are lead to believe.

#1 - Movie magic.
#2 - Movie magic.
#3 - Movie magic.
#4 - Movie magic.
#5 - Movie magic.
#6 - Movie magic.
#7 - Movie magic.
#8 - Movie magic.

LOL.

But seriously, #1, people don't notice anything in public. At all. Its just how ******ed people are in mass. Even if your expecting someone, and pointing out one specific person, , they seem to miss evrything. And #7, I don't know what angle the image is at, but to me, its conceivable that when he walks away from the bank manager a camera could of caught the image then.

I can't beleive people think he put the make-up on in the lobby while Grumpy was gone, LOL, I've seen multiple people express that veiw at sites, and I just don't get how they think that idea is even feasible. Or logical.

EDIT - And before ANYONE says anything about it, just because Heath Ledger wasen't wearing make-up (for scene were his face isn't even featured FYI) dosen't meen the character wasn't supposed to be. See above "Movie magic".

EDIT Again - But going back, if Nolan had green in the Joker's hair in the opening sequence, I'm guessing evryone would of known right off the bat. So this way it was more of a suprise to the audience when he takes the mask off. It made for a good story, and you hafe to give 'em that.

 

[Kieser1]

No. Yes if there really is no clear understanding of what happened and remains unexplained, but Harvey flipped the coin with the gun pointing to Joker's head, we're left to assume the coin landed on live seeing that Joker is walking away. What became of Harvey is also answered later in the movie.

Well for me, I consider that a plot hole imo, in regards to not knowing exactly what happened. While it's obvious the coin most likely landed on tails, there are still a few bits and peices in there that I was still wondering about. But again, those are more minor specific details, so I guess that was a bad example in terms of plot holes.

But what's interesting to think about is if the coin hadn't of landed on tails. The Joker was well aware of the 50% chance of him dying, but it seems as though he was willing to make the sacrficie in the name of chaos and destroying Gothom. It really makes him as a character, all the more sinister.

 

[TheDarkVictory]

i always thought nobody paying any attention to the joker in clown make up was because the virals set up the fact that all around town, people were spotted wearing clown make-up, and it had become just another thing in crazy old gotham. also, the virals set up how meticulously the joker planned the heist, including the thing that people seem to forget is that we all as a group helped him find the bus routes and the right times and such. half the virals were setting up the bank robbery....so yeah, i guess if you werent a part of those, technically a lot of this stuff is questionable, but it all had an explanation.

also, a lot of you need to get a crash course in what a plot hole is. just because events transpire off-screen does not mean they are plot holes. that's called leaving it to your imagination. so not knowing how harvey gets out of the hospital is not a plot hole. we just dont see that happening because we watch the joker leaving the hospital. you can assume time has passed between the end of their conversation and the joker blowing up the hospital. that's how movies work.

a plot hole is not the joker not having make up on underneath the mask and then having it when he takes it off. thats called a continuity error/make up error/something else entirely. or it's called movie magic. who cares?

a plot hole can unwind the entire fabric of the script. the entire script does not unravel if it seems silly that the joker can pull a bus out into traffic. it's also pretty silly that two-face can even walk around, let alone speak intelligibly and hold his own in a fight... but it's just something we take with the heightened reality of nolan's gotham. he never professed to complete realism- he professed to complete realism within the world he's created. huge difference.

 

[Jokey]

Joker standing with his back turned is called poetic licence. It's also an iconic shot.

 

[TheDarkVictory]

Joker standing with his back turned is called poetic licence. It's also an iconic shot.

that too. its an amazing shot. who cares about the logistics? why is batman standing on top of sears tower? because he can and it looks awesome.

actually, from now on, everything people gripe about in terms on unbelievability should just be termed poetic license.

 

[Doc Samson]

EDIT Again - But going back, if Nolan had green in the Joker's hair in the opening sequence, I'm guessing evryone would of known right off the bat. So this way it was more of a suprise to the audience when he takes the mask off. It made for a good story, and you hafe to give 'em that.

My only small, little gripe about that is, if they wanted to make it a really secret reveal, they shouldn't have lingered on his character so much. I understand the shot from behind when he's on the street is iconic, but the way they show it gives it away from the bat that something is up with this guy.

That being said, if we really want to pick things apart, we can do it rather easily. Throughout the movie, there are plenty of issues. The main thing is that the film on a whole was great, that's all that matters in the end. I think Nolan painted himself into a corner by not explaining his "hyper reality" slant to everyone in full detail, because now, every single thing that isn't exactly plausible is highlighted even more

 

[blightsbiohazar]

They coulda changed this in the design of the mask though ^^^^. Coulda been a full head mask that covers the back.

Also, what about the security camera print out? No one can explain that one. I'm not faulting it. It's my favorite movie of all time, but still, certain aspects of this scene don't make sense.

 

[sv2]

7. "He can't resist showing us his face" when was that picture taken? Joker was in the lobby with the bank manager and the citizens the whole time. Even when grumpy was loading the vault he couldn't have posed for the camera like that.

It could've happened off-screen, a few seconds after the reveal. Maybe while the camera was showing Fichnter's reaction, Joker glanced at a camera on the ceiling. Then they zoomed in + cropped it down on the final version Gordon is holding. t:

 

[Hole Shot]

i always thought nobody paying any attention to the joker in clown make up was because the virals set up the fact that all around town, people were spotted wearing clown make-up, and it had become just another thing in crazy old gotham. also, the virals set up how meticulously the joker planned the heist, including the thing that people seem to forget is that we all as a group helped him find the bus routes and the right times and such. half the virals were setting up the bank robbery....so yeah, i guess if you werent a part of those, technically a lot of this stuff is questionable, but it all had an explanation.

also, a lot of you need to get a crash course in what a plot hole is. just because events transpire off-screen does not mean they are plot holes. that's called leaving it to your imagination. so not knowing how harvey gets out of the hospital is not a plot hole. we just dont see that happening because we watch the joker leaving the hospital. you can assume time has passed between the end of their conversation and the joker blowing up the hospital. that's how movies work.

a plot hole is not the joker not having make up on underneath the mask and then having it when he takes it off. thats called a continuity error/make up error/something else entirely. or it's called movie magic. who cares?

a plot hole can unwind the entire fabric of the script. the entire script does not unravel if it seems silly that the joker can pull a bus out into traffic. it's also pretty silly that two-face can even walk around, let alone speak intelligibly and hold his own in a fight... but it's just something we take with the heightened reality of nolan's gotham. he never professed to complete realism- he professed to complete realism within the world he's created. huge difference.

That's what I'm trying to say but much better.

 

[byte19]

well here's my problem with this whole movie..... it wasn't loong enuff!!!!

but here is the real problem ppl our coming up with, it was made for me! this is my movie!!

 

[Beanjuice]

Ok so there's several problems with the bank robbery prologue scene that I noticed after repeated viewings. I'm going to point out a few of them in chronological order.
1. When the car pulled up, the Joker must not have been wearing makeup. The goons driving would have seen him with Joker makeup or ever with scars. Even if it was for a second.
2. His hair started out brown, not green, how'd that happen?
3. Chuckles got shot by the bank manager, how had Joker planned on him dying? The goons were all supposed to bump each other off.
4. Grumpy was supposed to kill the safe guy.
5. Was the bus driver supposed to kill grumpy or did he just happen to be standing on the right spot? If Joker expected that to work as part of the plan that's downright ******ed.
6. How was Grumpy supposed to die? If Joker kills the bus driver was he just supposed to die by chance? Remember Joker tried to get the bank manager to shoot him "he's out right?"
7. "He can't resist showing us his face" when was that picture taken? Joker was in the lobby with the bank manager and the citizens the whole time. Even when grumpy was loading the vault he couldn't have posed for the camera like that.
8. The bus. How on earth can it pull out of the building and fit right in line? That's highly contrived.

Don't get me wrong I love the scene, but the plan isn't nearly as amazing or fullproof as we are lead to believe.

Because its....

Spoiler

A MOVIE!!!

 

[Narc]

with regards to the joker's hair... i thought it was quite clear that his hair was very wet/damp at the beginning of the scene... and as the scene progressed, it dried - hence the green tint becoming more visible...

there are moments when rays of light hit his hair through the windows at the bank, and the tint is slightly visible.

 

[Anita18]

Anyways, the term Plot Hole gets tossed around quite a bit on this message board and it's often not used correctly. A continuity error is a goof, not having a seen in the bank heist that matches appropriately with the photo Gordon has in the vault isn't a plot hole.

THANK YOU.

Well for me, I consider that a plot hole imo, in regards to not knowing exactly what happened. While it's obvious the coin most likely landed on tails, there are still a few bits and peices in there that I was still wondering about. But again, those are more minor specific details, so I guess that was a bad example in terms of plot holes.

No, a plot hole is something that happens in the movie that contradicts what was set up earlier in the film. That is the very definition of a plot hole. Some pretty ridiculous and coincidental things happen in the Joker's favor for the robbery to work, but the movie stays consistent with the level of believability throughout, so we buy it. Tell me, was the assassination attempt on the mayor (especially involving the timing of the window curtain) or the ferry situation any more plausible in real life?

Having the movie simply cut away from an action and then show you the results later, is NOT a plot hole. If we can assume that Dent is honest and that he truly wants Joker dead, and says he will shoot Joker right in the forehead if the coin lands scarred-side-up, and Joker is seen later alive, we can safely assume that the coin landed clean-side-up. Nothing shown in the rest of the film contradicts that, since we are shown later that Harvey will follow his coin, no matter what it tells him.

The only thing, IMO, that could be considered a plot hole in TDK is how Gordon manages to fake his death. We're not shown how deep that secret goes, who knew, who didn't know, who helped him (which is the most plot-hole-y thing, since Gordon couldn't trust just anybody in his unit), how he did it, etc. And most importantly, the movie HINGES on that story gap, which makes it an actual plot hole.

 

[hatebox]

Well for me, I consider that a plot hole imo, in regards to not knowing exactly what happened. While it's obvious the coin most likely landed on tails, there are still a few bits and peices in there that I was still wondering about. But again, those are more minor specific details, so I guess that was a bad example in terms of plot holes.

I gotta say, from the sounds of it you want absolutely everything shown. Which would have made for a much longer and duller movie. Sometimes it's nice to imagine those little moments for oneself.

 

[Fenrir]

There are a lot of people in this thread who need to educate themselves about the definition of the word "plot hole".

 

[Bat-Mite]

Ok so there's several problems with the bank robbery prologue scene that I noticed after repeated viewings. I'm going to point out a few of them in chronological order.
1. When the car pulled up, the Joker must not have been wearing makeup. The goons driving would have seen him with Joker makeup or ever with scars. Even if it was for a second.
2. His hair started out brown, not green, how'd that happen?
3. Chuckles got shot by the bank manager, how had Joker planned on him dying? The goons were all supposed to bump each other off.
4. Grumpy was supposed to kill the safe guy.
5. Was the bus driver supposed to kill grumpy or did he just happen to be standing on the right spot? If Joker expected that to work as part of the plan that's downright ******ed.
6. How was Grumpy supposed to die? If Joker kills the bus driver was he just supposed to die by chance? Remember Joker tried to get the bank manager to shoot him "he's out right?"
7. "He can't resist showing us his face" when was that picture taken? Joker was in the lobby with the bank manager and the citizens the whole time. Even when grumpy was loading the vault he couldn't have posed for the camera like that.
8. The bus. How on earth can it pull out of the building and fit right in line? That's highly contrived.

Don't get me wrong I love the scene, but the plan isn't nearly as amazing or fullproof as we are lead to believe.

Most of these so-called plotholes that you're pointing out ignore the very nature of the Joker in this film; he's an almost supernatural entity. Until the very end of the film, he's always several steps ahead of everyone and his plans work out PERFECTLY. I don't see the point of nitpicking this scene as if it stands out, when it really doesn't, compared to the rest of the film. The Joker is supposed to have everything working out for him. How that happens isn't important. He's a devil... a trickster. Jonathan Nolan did an interview a few months back where he compared him to Loki and said that he could have just appeared out of thin air on that street corner.

 

[Jokers_Wild]

It's a freakin' movie based on a comic book...people need to stop trying to dig with a fine-toothed comb looking for every little 'plot hole'...which for the most part can be explained anyway! If you want a uber-realistic film, make sure it doesn't have Batman in it!

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ok so there's several problems with the bank robbery prologue scene that I noticed after repeated viewings. I'm going to point out a few of them in chronological order.
1. When the car pulled up, the Joker must not have been wearing makeup. The goons driving would have seen him with Joker makeup or ever with scars. Even if it was for a second.
2. His hair started out brown, not green, how'd that happen?
3. Chuckles got shot by the bank manager, how had Joker planned on him dying? The goons were all supposed to bump each other off.
4. Grumpy was supposed to kill the safe guy.
5. Was the bus driver supposed to kill grumpy or did he just happen to be standing on the right spot? If Joker expected that to work as part of the plan that's downright ******ed.
6. How was Grumpy supposed to die? If Joker kills the bus driver was he just supposed to die by chance? Remember Joker tried to get the bank manager to shoot him "he's out right?"
7. "He can't resist showing us his face" when was that picture taken? Joker was in the lobby with the bank manager and the citizens the whole time. Even when grumpy was loading the vault he couldn't have posed for the camera like that.
8. The bus. How on earth can it pull out of the building and fit right in line? That's highly contrived.

Don't get me wrong I love the scene, but the plan isn't nearly as amazing or fullproof as we are lead to believe.

1. Did you notice that he was looking down to the ground? As soon as the motor pulls up he slaps the mask on.

2. It's called movie magic friend. Next thing you know people will be saying that Batman wears black mascara around his eyes.

3. As long as they end up dead, Joker doesn't care.

4. And he did.

5. Why is that ******ed? Joker does amazing, nigh impossible things all the time in the comics. Notice he looks at his watch, he has everything perfectly set up, just like in the comics.

6. If the bus didn't hit him, Joker would of just shot him I reckon.

7. You do remember him taking off his mask right?

8. Again, the Joker is a master planner. Bank jobs aren't just random crimes, they are all perfectly planned out, Joker would probably be the best bank robber in the world if he was real.

So many people are going too over board with this realism thing. For the 1000000 time, this is not a ****ing realistic movie!!!! It is a superhero/fantasy film grounded in a realistic world with a realistic tone and meanings!!!

 

[Doctor Jones]

About the goons not seeing him with his make up. The windows were kinda tinted and we don't know where the car came from. It could of just pulled out of a curve right next to the Joker, not giving them a chance to see his face. Ace also brought up with him looking down.

The hair dying thing. How could people not figure this out? He probably just dyed his hair before the heist, and during the heist, the green started to show as it dried. Or he just rinsed it or something to apply new dye. Any other way, it just dried throughout the heist. You can see it has a shine to it and it does look wet.

The other were fine. Everybody else spoken for me.

 

[Bats]

My thoughts although I'm sure these points have been brought up before:

1. When the car pulled up, the Joker must not have been wearing makeup. The goons driving would have seen him with Joker makeup or ever with scars. Even if it was for a second.

1. He was looking down & to the right whereas the vehicle came from the left. And if you notice, the line of vision for the driver & passenger would be hard for them to look at Joker unless they were looking behind them & to the right a bit.

2. His hair started out brown, not green, how'd that happen?

2. For storytelling purposes, we're not supposed to notice his hair until the mask is removed. It's not a goof really.

3. Chuckles got shot by the bank manager, how had Joker planned on him dying? The goons were all supposed to bump each other off.

3. It's possible that the 2nd to last goon Joker kills was supposed to kill him. Or the Joker himself was to off him as well.

4. Grumpy was supposed to kill the safe guy.

4. And?

5. Was the bus driver supposed to kill grumpy or did he just happen to be standing on the right spot? If Joker expected that to work as part of the plan that's downright ******ed.

5. The Joker didn't plan to have a gun pulled on him by one of his goons. It just worked out that way as to where each was standing. If it didn't happen, and as I said in #3, it's possible the Joker was going to kill the others himself as he did the bus driver.

6. How was Grumpy supposed to die? If Joker kills the bus driver was he just supposed to die by chance? Remember Joker tried to get the bank manager to shoot him "he's out right?"

6. Again, it's possible the Joker planned to kill the others on his own.

7. "He can't resist showing us his face" when was that picture taken? Joker was in the lobby with the bank manager and the citizens the whole time. Even when grumpy was loading the vault he couldn't have posed for the camera like that.

7. Possibly during another heist. IF that was taken during the same heist, maybe before getting into the bus, or a point in the scene they didn't show us?

8. The bus. How on earth can it pull out of the building and fit right in line? That's highly contrived.

8. Not if all went according to plan. Joker's very meticulous as we saw in the film.

Don't get me wrong I love the scene, but the plan isn't nearly as amazing or fullproof as we are lead to believe.

Yes it is.

 

[Jonathan Crane]

Looks like someone don't know what "plot hole" means. That's funny.

 

[CELTICPRED]

I don't see what everyone is so up in arms about concerning Joker's hair.

It was a simple trick by Nolan. The general public would be clued in on him being the Joker if they saw his hair was green in the first shot. But they switch his hair to green around the time he starts loading the bus.

No big deal.


Same for the makeup, he was wearing it when the SUV pulled up, I don't think they saw him, no big deal.

 

[Wams]

Ok so there's several problems with the bank robbery prologue scene that I noticed after repeated viewings. I'm going to point out a few of them in chronological order.
1. ................................
.....................
......

Don't get me wrong I love the scene, but the plan isn't nearly as amazing or fullproof as we are lead to believe.

That's always the problem with trying to do a comicbook Superhero
"realistic".
When you go so real...your telling the audience "look at this with a microscope"...
Then what do you get?
Huge holes is the believability.

Im just sayin....

 

[Ace of Knaves]

That's always the problem with trying to do a comicbook Superhero
"realistic".
When you go so real...your telling the audience "look at this with a microscope"...
Then what do you get?
Huge holes is the believability.

Im just sayin....

But thats the thing, this was never inteded to be really realistic. It is still a FANTASY film, it's just set in a realistic world and has realistic emotional impact and meanings. If they set out to make a true to life superhero film it just wouldn't work, or it wouldn't be that entertaining anyway.