I hope it's okay to start this thread, this way the other news and spoilers thread can be more for oooohing and awwing at the spoilery pictures, and other brand new news and general discussion, and this thread can more explore some general plot ideas and speculation based on those spoilers and figure out how it all ties in as a whole. It seems like that type of talk might get lost with the floods of comments about pictures, etc... and it would be easier to keep track of everything in one thread to, again tie everything in together for the bigger picture, rather than all over the place. SPOILERS Be warned! Run away from this thread if you dont want to be spoiled for Thor 2!!! I'm going to put this in spoiler tags for now and people can let me know, if this thread stays, if that is necessary or not here. I dont think it is due to the thread title but I'll put it up for now. Okay so for those joining in late, we were discussing in the Kurse thread starting about page 8 about if those in the pictures we are seeing this week are the Dark Elves then who the heck are the warriors fighting in the pictures that were taken in the Bourne woods a while back and where was that taking place. Also there has been lots of good discussion in the Alice Krige thread about her role so check that out too. We also have some interesting discussion about "Moral Sacrifice" in the Thor thread starting at page 11 which I think is very much going to be a theme and tie in to what happens to Thor in Thor 2, and we can maybe discuss that more here as well. (again I dont want to just repeat everything, just trying to move the discussions together to try to get the bigger picture.) Spoiler Suffice to say, my theory on the Bourne woods fighting scenes is that there is are two kingdoms fighting (per what the studio put out about it) and that it is probably Nornheim (part of Asgard but Karnilla's kingdom), being attacked by either Vanaheim or an army from Niflheim (army of dishonored dead sent by Hela), and then Thor and the Asgardians come in and have to break it up/stop it. Everything is going crazy after the destruction of the bifrost, and Odin is very possibly being seen as weak right now, and so everybody else is taking advantage of that. In regards to this army in the Bourne woods fighting specifically, someone recently posted this article which has some similar elements to what I am now thinking (not all but some) http://celluloidandcigaretteburns.blogspot.com/2012/11/spoiler-speculation-armies-of-surtur.html In particular check out the picture of Hela's army. The guys in the Bourne woods do not look dead like this but the helmets and dress look similar, also at least some warriors have black around their eyes that I've seen that make me wonder about them looking more dead with some CGI later. And many look like demons or trolls, and different people, which according to info I've read about Nornheim, there are all sorts of different beings living in Nornheim. This would explain such a vast array of characters in the pictures (none of which appear to be Dark Elves). Anyway, I dont want to reiterate every point that was in the Kurse thread, but it seems like it is very likely this scenario here that this is Nornheim vs Vanaheim or vs Niflheim and then Thor and the Asgardian soldiers step in. The stuff the above article has speculation about Hela being Loki's mother, I find that to be very plausible. They do sometimes give the characters a different background and change a few aspects to go with the MCU, and make it more accessible and less confusing to the general audience. and it would be easier to explain Hela (if they explain her at all) as being Loki's mother than his daughter at this point, since Hela seems sort of likely to be the Alice Krige role, and Alice definitely looks older than Loki. Hela seems like the kind of girl who might hook up with Laufey. LOL On top of that if the Frigga dying thing is true then that is the perfect time to bring in Loki's birth mother, and have her try to control him or get him on her side to take over Asgard. Another point, as some of you know I've often wondered about stuff like Loki's hair (when the Frost giants are bald), and why his bone structure doesn't look like the other frost giants. They really just turned him blue with red eyes in Thor 1, and that crown design on his forehead doesn't look like the Frost giants so much either. Even as a baby, or when he changes completely over, he just doesn't quite look full frost giant, and I think that's on purpose. Plus Odin completely left out anything about his mother (probably figured the revelation about Laufey was enough of a shock for him right then). So as some of you know I believe in this MCU incarnation Loki will only be half frost giant for a variety of reasons that I've already posted elsewhere (mostly in the Loki thread). Plus that gives Odin yet another reason to take in Loki as a baby and try to raise him to be a good man, if he is the product of not only Laufey but Hela as well. So with that in mind, it makes perfect sense to bring in Hela as Loki's mother, and have her try to get him on her side to help her take over Asgard. (of course, that doesn't mean he wont double cross her like he did Laufey, tricky sonofagun that he is. ) and this would go along with an earlier idea I had about the fights filmed in Iceland where Loki and Thor were supposed to be on different sides. In this case Loki could be leading an army of "dishonored dead" for Hela. and again, that doesnt mean he's going to stay on that side, I continue to think he will be crossing and double crossing. Or the other theory I had about that fight is that people were mistakenly assuming that Thor and Loki are on different sides in this fight, when they are on the same side in fact, vs Hela's army. Also in regards to that army, I could be wrong but I dont recall anything coming out about what the opposing army looked like in Iceland, and I would think if it were the elves something would have come out describing them. So I think the armies fighting there might look all like the Bourne woods guys, and possibly meant to be a war taking place on Niflheim since the landscape described for that scene would seem to make perfect sense for that realm. So the stuff about Hela's army there, yes. I am thinking that more and more, still not so sure about Surtur showing up yet, but a possibility. But I'm still thinking he should wait for Thor 3, there is enough going on here. With Hela's army, Malekith and Kurse, plus definitely Jane Thor and Loki stuff to deal with, and probably at least some Odin and Frigga stuff as well, I mean, this movie is jam packed already. It won't be 3 hours, that's for sure. The Fandral rumor that he has there, that's the first I'd heard of that. certainly possible A LOT of characters will die. The films alternate name is "Thursday Mourning" after all... I have more I could post but I think that's probably enough to start with... novel that it is... thoughts?