Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

I just realized I should ask you for clarification. When you say "moral sacrifice", it sounds like you mean allowing someone to perish through inaction or neglect. Is that right?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I did a little Googling and found the phrase to mean slightly different things to different people. But it tended to mean "justified killing" or "justified murder". So the sacrifice concerns somebody actively slaying someone under very specific circumstances.

By contrast, it sounds like what you are describing is someone dying due to someone else's inaction. Is that what you are referring to by a "moral sacrifice"?

Yes, It could mean either, I believe, but I am thinking more sacrificing your morals for the greater good. for instance allowing 1 person to suffer or die, in order to save many from the same fate, even though you feel it is morally wrong to stand by and let even one person die under any circumstances.

 

[elizah72]

By the way, from that same site I linked in the first post, in another article mentions " The sequel will be mostly set in Asgard and other worlds with the cast of Asgardians being doubled according to Kevin Feige." I have not been able to find the original article to reference for that. Has this been mentioned here before and confirmed? If so anyone have a link to the original interview? Idris I think said something like this too about the cast coming in (not doubled but a new cast of characters). But it seems like we're missing A LOT from the IMDB and cast list if this is so.

If true that the Asgardian cast will be doubled (and I'm assuming he means main speaking cast) then to start with we have:
Odin, Frigga, Thor, Loki, Sif, Heimdall, Hogun, Volstagg, & Fandral

So 9 more than that? Really???? Because, if that's right, man that's A LOT! And there are only two definite (for likely speaking roles) so far: Tyr and Einherjar Captain

edit: Idris said in a vid interview recently: "We got a great set of new characters coming in" and in another previous interview said "In the new film we’re going to get to know Heimdall the Asgardian a bit better, and we’re going to get to know Asgard a bit better,” Elba said. “I can’t say too much, but the expansion of Thor in his world is going to be huge.

 

[SimiOfDoom]

Hm.. more than a little worried now that they cram too much in it :/

 

[elizah72]

Hm.. more than a little worried now that they cram too much in it :/

If referring to my post above. Yup that is a worry. However, again I'm curious about the wording from the original interview, if Feige specifically said "Asgarian cast" or just the cast in general, since that would make a big difference.

As for the possible Asgardian Cast additions, there are two definite as named above. I suspect that the majority of others would have to do with support for the original Asgardian characters, and support in fighting for Asgard, and also to set up family and friend relationships to help keep the Asgardians "human" and relatable to the audience. (such as someone's sister or brother, or mentor or spouse...) So it might quite small parts mostly, just a few lines here and there to set up relationships prior to any fighting.

And as speculated heavily already in this thread there is at least one (technically) Asgardian villain that seems extremely likely to be making an appearance.

 

[marvel_freshman]

By the way, from that same site I linked in the first post, in another article mentions " The sequel will be mostly set in Asgard and other worlds with the cast of Asgardians being doubled according to Kevin Feige." I have not been able to find the original article to reference for that. Has this been mentioned here before and confirmed? If so anyone have a link to the original interview? Idris I think said something like this too about the cast coming in (not doubled but a new cast of characters). But it seems like we're missing A LOT from the IMDB and cast list if this is so.

If true that the Asgardian cast will be doubled (and I'm assuming he means main speaking cast) then to start with we have:
Odin, Frigga, Thor, Loki, Sif, Heimdall, Hogun, Volstagg, & Fandral

So 9 more than that? Really???? Because, if that's right, man that's A LOT! And there are only two definite (for likely speaking roles) so far: Tyr and Einherjar Captain

edit: Idris said in a vid interview recently: "We got a great set of new characters coming in" and in another previous interview said "In the new film we’re going to get to know Heimdall the Asgardian a bit better, and we’re going to get to know Asgard a bit better,” Elba said. “I can’t say too much, but the expansion of Thor in his world is going to be huge.

I remember writing up an article on CBM about that. Kevin Feige never said it, but it was included in exclusive reports that Brian Kirk was in talks to direct. The article I wrote up took quotes from Variety & Movie Web.

The "Thor" sequel is expected to feature a large cast of Aasgardians and creatures in the Norse mythology-set world.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118040898#.TjsrMNBrY2Y.twitter

Thor 2 is expected to double its cast of larger than life Aasgardians and mythical Norse creatures, making it one of the largest scale Marvel adventures to date, second only to The Avengers
http://www.movieweb.com/news/thor-2-has-director-brian-kirk-in-early-negotiations?page=4

 

[elizah72]

I remember writing up an article on CBM about that. Kevin Feige never said it, but it was included in exclusive reports that Brian Kirk was in talks to direct. The article I wrote up took quotes from Variety & Movie Web.

THANK YOU!!!

Okay so what I'm going to take from that wording there, is that they are doubling the cast of Asgardians AND mythicalNorse creatures (like Dark Elves) that are in speaking roles and that's far less scary a prospect. Phew. I do think we have more of the cast yet to be revealed though.

 

[cherokeesam]

THANK YOU!!!

Okay so what I'm going to take from that wording there, is that they are doubling the cast of Asgardians AND mythicalNorse creatures (like Dark Elves) that are in speaking roles and that's far less scary a prospect. Phew. I do think we have more of the cast yet to be revealed though.

Didn't they say shooting wraps next month? And we've already had major set pieces filmed in England and Iceland, and at least a few "behind closed doors" in the studio....I *seriously* doubt there's any more major casting left to be done.

That quote about doubling the "cast of larger than life Asgardians and mythical Norse creatures, making it one of the largest scale Marvel adventures to date, second only to The Avengers," says nothing about speaking parts. It likely refers only to the number of extras in the movie, and we've already pretty much seen that proven at Bourne Woods.

 

[Surfer]

elizah72,

Great thread!

Your ideas could be all right or all wrong, but the way you think outside the box is genius. You definitely have brought up some very interesting ideas that I think will have many of us wondering if there is any truth to it, until more information becomes available and clarifies things. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Surfer

 

[American Maid]

THANK YOU!!!

Okay so what I'm going to take from that wording there, is that they are doubling the cast of Asgardians AND mythicalNorse creatures (like Dark Elves) that are in speaking roles and that's far less scary a prospect. Phew. I do think we have more of the cast yet to be revealed though.

The one caution I would have is that the articles are from the middle of 2011. They may have changed a few of the ideas around since then.

 

[American Maid]

elizah72,

Great thread!

Your ideas could be all right or all wrong, but the way you think outside the box is genius. You definitely have brought up some very interesting ideas that I think will have many of us wondering if there is any truth to it, until more information becomes available and clarifies things. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Surfer

Yeah--by the time the movie comes out, we will have figured out for ourselves enough different plots to get through, say, Thor 27! What fun!!

 

[Surfer]

Yeah--by the time the movie comes out, we will have figured out for ourselves enough different plots to get through, say, Thor 27! What fun!!

Keep the ideas coming. Right or wrong as you girls have said before, part of the fun is speculating.

Surfer

 

[American Maid]

Keep the ideas coming. Right or wrong as you girls have said before, part of the fun is speculating.

Surfer

Well, and the way you get to a good idea is to play with a lot of ideas. There are some aspects that don't work for the various ideas, and in considering why they don't work, we get new ideas.

 

[American Maid]

I think it's a power that they can certainly add to the character, if they want, even if it's not in there to start with. And I think also that if Hela is related to Loki as she is in the comics, then more sneaky ways of getting what she wants, could certainly be used than just pure power. and this could certainly be a sneaky way of getting inside info on the Asgardians and how to defeat them.

I think you're right--they could do this.

This next quote is out of context but applicable here, too:

crazy idea I know but it would sure as bad place be a surprise twist to the comics fans!

You're right--they do have to change it up, otherwise, it's just a flip-book for the original comic.

Spoiler

This is when Odin is killed. Now here is a crazy idea, but I'll be curious what jaqua99 thinks especially. What if, Surtur does appear, in addition to Hela and Malekith, and Thor is on Earth defending Earth, and it's just Odin and Loki and the Asgardians vs Surtur and Hela's armies, and Odin is killed (probably taking out Surtur in the process, so a BIG death). This would be a MAJOR twist on the comics. And since the Asgardians have not read the comics, they dont know that Surtur kills Odin anyway (neither would Thor know this for that matter), so they could easily blame and shun Thor for not being there when he was needed most on Asgard. And most interesting of all, if Odin is dead, and possibly Frigga dead, and Thor being shunned by the people of Asgard, who is the only successor to the throne left? BINGO. Particularly if he chooses to fight beside Odin and the other Asgardians.

Now I know Tyr is supposed to be in there, so there may be him as an option too, but I thought it was more interesting if it were Loki. also I'm sort of thinking Tyr may not be a brother to Thor in this, possibly of Odin though, and I'm also thinking he may be already dead and involved with the Valhalla forces, so not a likely successor for that reason.

crazy idea I know but it would sure as bad place be a surprise twist to the comics fans!

It's really hard to let go of the "For Asgard!"/"For Midgard!"/"For Myself!" moment, though. BUT

Spoiler

I've seen people write that at the same time Surtur is fighting with Odin and the boys, his army is attacking Midgard at--where else?--New York. The Asgardian army is down there fighting them. So what you propose is actually not as big of a leap as it might originally appear, aside from moving away from that one iconic page in the book.

Also, as I understand, Surtur smashes the Bifrost with Twilight to cut off the army from coming back to aid Odin & Sons. I had earlier quipped that they have to hurry up and repair the Bifrost so that it's ready for Surtur to smash. But maybe they just won't bother--lol.

since the Asgardians have not read the comics, they dont know that Surtur kills Odin anyway (neither would Thor know this for that matter),

Hee hee--funny you should mention that. I saw a panel one time in which Sif says to Thor something to the effect of, "I'm hoping that the fact that my actions in the Ragnarok and those of the Warriors Three are not attested to in the Poetic Edda means that we still have some freedom to affect the outcome."

Also, there's a side story (ie, not 616 continuity) called Thor: The Mighty Avenger. When Jane first meets Thor and pulls out a book of Norse mythology to show him, the image that is in the book is from the 616 comics, Kirby-era Thor.

Finally, I heard that someone is going to tease Tony Stark in Iron Man 3 about being in the "Superfriends".

More seriously, I recall that Hemsworth said in an interview one time that Vikings took their dreams very seriously. If they dreamt they would die in the next battle, they were certain it would happen. Conversely, if they didn't dream it, not gonna happen. He asserted that gave them the fearlessness for which they were famous in battle. Presumably the Asgardians would reflect that to some extent. So if no one (especially Frigga) dreamt of bad things from Surtur, then they probably would assume it would all work out (although I do recall in that famous For Asgard/Midgard/Myself page, Odin does say something to the effect of, "what better way for a god than to die with his sons by his side?")

Spoiler

and actually if Malekith makes a play for her early on, (if he's able to find out about her somehow, through Loki or some magical way) and then he tries to kidnap her to use as bait just as he grabs Lorelei, but Thor stops him or gets her back, then that might be a legit reason for him taking her back to Asgard with him for a while. And this could be what the current fighting scenes being filmed are about also. Maybe... although I was thinking some of the shadow boxing stuff was against a CGI Kurse, which I think will be late in the movie. Plus I think that Malekith is more likely to grab Jane in a sneaky way, as I think he does Lorelei in the comics, and not come down with a huge army destroying stuff to do it. They actually have a shapeshifting elf pose as Lorelei in the comics for a time I guess, so that certainly could be what the "possession" is in reference to, actually, now that I've found that out. But then that would mean there would be some scenes with Jane, not Jane at all, and Jane is actually with Malekith through much of this. That could certainly lead into a "moral sacrifice" situation, if there ever was one.

Okay, I guess I need a little help connecting the dots here. Sorry to be slow on the uptake.

Spoiler

What exactly is the moral sacrifice to which you are referring? Are you suggesting that Thor might want to kill the not-Jane-elf? I'm a little confused.

<A spoiler about Jane>
or this happens to her half way through or towards the end, after [Thor and Jane] have had a chance to meet up again, and maybe spend some time together. Although I'm having trouble coming up with an excuse for him to be down there for that, with everything hitting the fan everywhere else.

That could be, if we think that Andrew Lawden's spoilers could involve plot points from later in the movie. However,

Spoiler

he went on to say that Jane, Thor, and Loki go on the journey to the Dark World. So the possession can't come so late in the film. since there seem to be so many events that come after it.

But the main point I wanted to make here was an idea I have about this Greenwich University footage.

Spoiler

So, we have a big pile of rocks, and the dark elves are marching up the staircase on the backside of the rocks and then up over the pile and onto the set. I think they might be coming out of a space ship that has crashed onto the green of the university. (*Sadly*, not a crater or a trench that Thor or Kurse or some other heavy hitter made Have to hope for a crater in some other fight!) I had also previously observed that it looks like they are going to stage it so that two pillars from one of the university buildings gets knocked out and onto the lawn. I suppose the ship clips the pillars as it lands.

The spoiler from September that marvel_freshman had posted discussed a space ship that crashed into a palace. Presumably this is not the same crash as this Greenwich University set--there'd be no need to duplicate it in green screen.

SOOOOOOOOOOO

Maybe the dark elves attack *both* places *simultaneously*!! And maybe even both ship crashes are simultaneous to the army attack out in the sticks at Bourne Woods. (Yes, Thor is in the Bourne Woods scene, and he's at Greenwich University too, but maybe he's in one place and then flies to the other).

The other conclusion we could draw is that the dark elves are *really* lousy pilots! Either that or they haven't bothered to design landing gear--lol. So not enough Midgardian influence on their culture .

As for how Thor is able to get down there, maybe Jane & Co are finally able to get a portal open (the university recruited her to set up the Center for Interdimensional Studies, with grant money from Stark Industries, etc.) The dark elves have a lot of sleeper agents on Midgard (yielding the influence of the two realms on each other that marvel_freshman speculated about). There would have been a lot of preliminary tests, so they knew in advance this was coming. So when the dark elves were ready to move on Asgard, they figured they should hit Earth too. Because clearly they are ready for a higher form of war.

I think Natalie Portman was only on set on Tuesday. (Her trailer was labeled "Jane" on Monday and by Wednesday it was labeled "Malekith"). So maybe Thor flies through the portal and tells them to get up to Asgard where it is safer, not realizing that the other attack is coming.

Hmmm, that doesn't quite fit with the Bourne Woods scene, though. Okay, new idea: the army attack at Bourne Woods is completely uncoordinated with the two ship attacks. The dark elves see that that is going down, and they decide this is a good moment to pile on too. So then they launch their ships. The one headed for Midgard gets there before the one that gets to Asgard.

Okay, that's plenty I'm sure.

 

[jaqua99]

I believe I have had a thumbs up. Dont recall getting a bingo yet though... so... *fingers crossed*



I was about to say, no I didnt mean that they'd have two actresses play Hela, but then it occurred to me... how about this?

Spoiler

Hela is working with Malekith and the Elves (and possibly Surtur too, though I think based on what I know of Hela "working with" is a more accurate description than "working for")... anyway, they are working together, and Hela possesses Jane in order to get to the Asgardians. This would go along with the Lawden stuff about this spirit being connected to the Dark Elves, and it would allow for some scenes where Jane is acting as Hela, and breaking Thor's heart, might also allow for some Loki-Hela interaction where we find out what if any relationship there is, and in this case then Krige would not have much to do since Natalie would be doing the lion's share as Hela.

You'll get your bingo sooner or later , Though I do like your idea. You have a very creative mind, I like how you are able to think outside the box. It makes speculation easier

Wait .....

If Hela is the Goddess of Death, perhaps they're going to tie her into Thanos.

I could see them doing that. I really don't know how to flat out makes mistress death work without a bit of head scrating. Maybe have her be a hallucination of his. Other than that, Hela works.

I can see how it would be tidier. But it seems like the power dynamic would be different between Thanos and Hela vs Thanos and Mistress Death.

I'm happy to hear what others think of that.

I think it is fine if they put hela is death's place

Yes I had speculated that earlier having Mistress Death and Hela be combined or switched and Thanos being in love with her in Avengers 2, but that got shot down by a few here. I dont know I think it's possible but not much to support it as a sure thing at the moment. We'll know more about Avengers 2 when they start filming Avengers 2.

yeah, it's a LONG way awaysss

By the way, from that same site I linked in the first post, in another article mentions " The sequel will be mostly set in Asgard and other worlds with the cast of Asgardians being doubled according to Kevin Feige." I have not been able to find the original article to reference for that. Has this been mentioned here before and confirmed? If so anyone have a link to the original interview? Idris I think said something like this too about the cast coming in (not doubled but a new cast of characters). But it seems like we're missing A LOT from the IMDB and cast list if this is so.

If true that the Asgardian cast will be doubled (and I'm assuming he means main speaking cast) then to start with we have:
Odin, Frigga, Thor, Loki, Sif, Heimdall, Hogun, Volstagg, & Fandral

So 9 more than that? Really???? Because, if that's right, man that's A LOT! And there are only two definite (for likely speaking roles) so far: Tyr and Einherjar Captain

edit: Idris said in a vid interview recently: "We got a great set of new characters coming in" and in another previous interview said "In the new film we’re going to get to know Heimdall the Asgardian a bit better, and we’re going to get to know Asgard a bit better,” Elba said. “I can’t say too much, but the expansion of Thor in his world is going to be huge.

It's reading posts like this that make me really think this is going to be THE marvel movie of phase 2, just like ironman 1 was of phase 1 (prior to the avengers)

elizah72,

Great thread!

Your ideas could be all right or all wrong, but the way you think outside the box is genius. You definitely have brought up some very interesting ideas that I think will have many of us wondering if there is any truth to it, until more information becomes available and clarifies things. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Surfer

Took the words right out of my mouth lol

Keep the ideas coming. Right or wrong as you girls have said before, part of the fun is speculating.

Surfer

Well, and the way you get to a good idea is to play with a lot of ideas. There are some aspects that don't work for the various ideas, and in considering why they don't work, we get new ideas.

Exxactly. Like I mentioned in another thread, it makes these movies so much more fun. And its not simply being reminded of it when we see a trailer, all this speculation leading up to it. woooooooo

 

[elizah72]

Nice! Lots of replies make me t: Where to start...hmmm...

Didn't they say shooting wraps next month? And we've already had major set pieces filmed in England and Iceland, and at least a few "behind closed doors" in the studio....I *seriously* doubt there's any more major casting left to be done.

That quote about doubling the "cast of larger than life Asgardians and mythical Norse creatures, making it one of the largest scale Marvel adventures to date, second only to The Avengers," says nothing about speaking parts. It likely refers only to the number of extras in the movie, and we've already pretty much seen that proven at Bourne Woods.

I agree, no major casting but certainly some minors could come in for some minor speaking parts to help give the story more "heart" and background for the established characters. It could also very well be that these minor characters have been kept secret and already filmed, we just dont know about it. Idris has said something about getting to know Heimdall and his world better, not that we'll get to see Mrs. Heimdall, or the little Heimdalls. LOL

And another point, if all the 9 realms are involved, then we should see Vanaheim and Alfheim, and that would require a couple speaking parts for those characters, and we have not heard anyone casting for that. However, there was a casting call early on for attractive blonde men and women, natural blondes, and I think something about doesnt mind skimpy outfits. Now, I don't know about you all, but that sounds like Alfheim and light elves to me. The natural blonde thing in particular would be because it's easier to dye the hair lighter or the same color than if someone has died hair. And the Asgardians have no need to be natural blondes and haven't been seen wearing skimpy outfits to date.

come to think of it, (Alfheim speculation)

Spoiler

I wonder if the Stonehendge scene that was filmed with the "naked guy" (if that is true) could be dressed up to look like a site on Alfheim possibly. Like maybe Stonehendge was created by the Light Elves based on places of worship on Alfheim. Hmmm...

elizah72,

Great thread!

Your ideas could be all right or all wrong, but the way you think outside the box is genius. You definitely have brought up some very interesting ideas that I think will have many of us wondering if there is any truth to it, until more information becomes available and clarifies things. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Surfer

Thanks! And you're welcome! I love trying to piece this stuff together.

The one caution I would have is that the articles are from the middle of 2011. They may have changed a few of the ideas around since then.

True that aspect could very well have changed.

Yeah--by the time the movie comes out, we will have figured out for ourselves enough different plots to get through, say, Thor 27! What fun!!

LOL... I wonder at what point do the Marvel snipers show up at a person's house if they are getting to close to the truth? LOL... umm.... *looks nervous*

Well, and the way you get to a good idea is to play with a lot of ideas. There are some aspects that don't work for the various ideas, and in considering why they don't work, we get new ideas.

and sometimes headaches as well... lol...

 

[elizah72]

You're right--they do have to change it up, otherwise, it's just a flip-book for the original comic.
It's really hard to let go of the "For Asgard!"/"For Midgard!"/"For Myself!" moment, though.

Actually... this is film so...

Spoiler

You could have Odin and Loki on Asgard fighting Surtur or Hela or both, Odin says "For Asgard!", at the same time cut to Thor on Earth fighting Malekith and/or Kurse and he says "For Midgard!" and then cut back to Loki's face, in response to what Odin just said, just mutter with a roll of the eyes, "For myself..." Could work. I'm tellin' ya. It would be a bad place of a twist if Thor didnt make it back in time and blamed himself, and the Asgardians blamed him too.

Edit: and come to think of it, it makes A LOT more sense for Thor to say "For Midgard" in this context. Hm... I wonder if that's what he's bellowing in that funny picture someone snapped of him. I will LMAO in the theater if it is.

Finally, I heard that someone is going to tease Tony Stark in Iron Man 3 about being in the "Superfriends".

HA! COOL! I watched that as a kid.

More seriously, I recall that Hemsworth said in an interview one time that Vikings took their dreams very seriously. If they dreamt they would die in the next battle, they were certain it would happen. Conversely, if they didn't dream it, not gonna happen. He asserted that gave them the fearlessness for which they were famous in battle. Presumably the Asgardians would reflect that to some extent. So if no one (especially Frigga) dreamt of bad things from Surtur, then they probably would assume it would all work out (although I do recall in that famous For Asgard/Midgard/Myself page, Odin does say something to the effect of, "what better way for a god than to die with his sons by his side?")

I think Odin knows at least something about when he will die, and I suspect that's what the coronation at the beginning of Thor might have been about.

What exactly is the moral sacrifice to which you are referring?

The moral sacrifice being...

Spoiler

that Thor is being asked to let Midgard be taken to protect Asgard and other realms. So in other words, let that one realm go in order to save the many other realms including Asgard. This is not a "moral sacrifice" that Thor can accept however. So he in a way, will be seen as failing Odin and Asgard, but being triumphant for Earth... as the synopsis said "most perilous and personal journey yet" that will "force him to sacrifice everything to save us all".

On Andrew Lawden...

Spoiler

That could be, if we think that Andrew Lawden's spoilers could involve plot points from later in the movie. However,

Spoiler

he went on to say that Jane, Thor, and Loki go on the journey to the Dark World. So the possession can't come so late in the film. since there seem to be so many events that come after it.

Spoiler

I'm still just a little bit skeptical of some of what he says, some could be him trying to piece things together and making leaps that are not going to be true (they film out of order, so he could be making assumptions that aren't correct) , and some could be misinformation fed out in order to keep fans off balance. One question I had about it for instance, isn't this week the first we've seen of Natalie filming Thor 2? I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if she was in Iceland at all. Also, I just can't believe all this was put out so willingly. It may be true, it may be not true, either way the whole thing is strange.

I like the idea you have about the crater and where the Dark Elves are marching in from. That makes sense.

The other conclusion we could draw is that the dark elves are *really* lousy pilots! Either that or they haven't bothered to design landing gear--lol. So not enough Midgardian influence on their culture .

HA! Well they have big ears, not big eyes... so...

On Jane opening a portal, I just question why they would want to, or anyone would allow her to do that after what happened in Avengers when a portal was opened. They dont know what's on the other side, and probably don't want to know.

Spoiler

I think Natalie Portman was only on set on Tuesday. (Her trailer was labeled "Jane" on Monday and by Wednesday it was labeled "Malekith"). So maybe Thor flies through the portal and tells them to get up to Asgard where it is safer, not realizing that the other attack is coming.

I'm thinking more that Heimdall is keeping an eye on Jane and so if Thor shows up suddenly in her world for whatever reason, that Heimdall told him that she's in danger or he needs to talk to her about something she's doing that she shouldn't do, such as what you suggested with the portal.

Spoiler

Hmmm, that doesn't quite fit with the Bourne Woods scene, though. Okay, new idea: the army attack at Bourne Woods is completely uncoordinated with the two ship attacks. The dark elves see that that is going down, and they decide this is a good moment to pile on too. So then they launch their ships. The one headed for Midgard gets there before the one that gets to Asgard.

I think in regards to the Bourne woods scenes

Spoiler

That if it's Hela then it may very well be her ship of the dead that she is building that crashes. Like I said that was posted at about the same time they were filming that, and I'm having a hard time picturing a ship flying into Asgard and crashing into *that* massive palace and a stuntman/guard running away. Maybe, but I'm thinking it could be Karnilla's much smaller palace being attacked, assuming this is Nornheim. I think they may very well be working with the Dark Elves to co-ordinate attacks. But I think if they are going to show two big ships crashing like this, they need to make them different.

You'll get your bingo sooner or later , Though I do like your idea. You have a very creative mind, I like how you are able to think outside the box. It makes speculation easier

t: And keep in mind, if Feige and Marvel is smart then they need to think outside the box, and think of ways to surprise not only the general audience but the established comics fans. Otherwise no surprises for them, and where is the fun in that?

I could see them doing that. I really don't know how to flat out makes mistress death work without a bit of head scrating. Maybe have her be a hallucination of his. Other than that, Hela works.

I think it is fine if they put hela is death's place

I agree, some adjustment, but it could work. As mentioned elsewhere it's a bit confusing to the general audience to have 2 female figures associated with death here.

It's reading posts like this that make me really think this is going to be THE marvel movie of phase 2, just like ironman 1 was of phase 1 (prior to the avengers)

Yeah I know! Yay!

 

[MahvelBaby!]

This thread is pure win, been hooked reading both pages, Bravo!

 

[American Maid]

Actually... this is film so...

Spoiler

You could have Odin and Loki on Asgard fighting Surtur or Hela or both, Odin says "For Asgard!", at the same time cut to Thor on Earth fighting Malekith and/or Kurse and he says "For Midgard!" and then cut back to Loki's face, in response to what Odin just said, just mutter with a roll of the eyes, "For myself..." Could work. I'm tellin' ya. It would be a bad place of a twist if Thor didnt make it back in time and blamed himself, and the Asgardians blamed him too.

Edit: and come to think of it, it makes A LOT more sense for Thor to say "For Midgard" in this context. Hm... I wonder if that's what he's bellowing in that funny picture someone snapped of him. I will LMAO in the theater if it is.

I could see that.

The moral sacrifice being...

Spoiler

that Thor is being asked to let Midgard be taken to protect Asgard and other realms. So in other words, let that one realm go in order to save the many other realms including Asgard. This is not a "moral sacrifice" that Thor can accept however. So he in a way, will be seen as failing Odin and Asgard, but being triumphant for Earth... as the synopsis said "most perilous and personal journey yet" that will "force him to sacrifice everything to save us all".

Okay. I thought you were alluding to a different moral sacrifice.

Spoiler

I wonder if Thor will be asked to make some moral sacrifice so as to free Jane from the malevolent spirit.

On Andrew Lawden...

I'm still just a little bit skeptical of some of what he says, some could be him trying to piece things together and making leaps that are not going to be true (they film out of order, so he could be making assumptions that aren't correct) , and some could be misinformation fed out in order to keep fans off balance. One question I had about it for instance, isn't this week the first we've seen of Natalie filming Thor 2? I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if she was in Iceland at all. Also, I just can't believe all this was put out so willingly. It may be true, it may be not true, either way the whole thing is strange.

Aw, what's the fun in that? We don't guarantee any of our ideas or assumptions to be right; why should we require it of the stuntman?

It is kind of convenient that he comes out with these very specific ideas, apparently with the studio's blessing. Brings to mind the Oscar Wilde quote: "[T]here is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."

Regarding Portman, she was spotted in London on 30 October. So she could have done a lot of sound stage work in the meantime. And it's possible that she would be in scenes in the movie that are in the same sequence as the Iceland footage, though I'll agree that that might look a little disjoint.

I like the idea you have about the crater and where the Dark Elves are marching in from. That makes sense.

Actually, having slept on it, I like it a little less. A space ship crashing into the ground ought to have more momentum and require a longer stretch to come to rest than they have room at that campus (unless most of the trench is handled digitally).

On Jane opening a portal, I just question why they would want to, or anyone would allow her to do that after what happened in Avengers when a portal was opened. They dont know what's on the other side, and probably don't want to know.

Actually, I would think that they would regard it as in their global security interest to have this technology, rather than rely on other races to provide the access (or take it away) whenever they deign to do so. Studying it also would enable the development of better defenses against future incursions into Earth's airspace, as it were.

Spoiler

The dark elves may feel similarly. Maybe they've been poaching Midgardian tech for years, but aren't quite expert at it, and that's why their ships tend to crash lol

I'm thinking more that Heimdall is keeping an eye on Jane

That's probably happening too.

I don't know if this next part requires a spoiler button, but to be on the safe side, I'll add it.

Spoiler

Seeing more of the pictures that people are posting in the main spoilers thread, people have noted that Thor has two scratches on his forehead. We collectively have supposed that has to have come from a *really* big blow, likely from Kurse. That would put this footage late in the film, meaning it is likely on Svartalfheim. (We don't think everyone would travel all the way to Midgard for the showdown, do we?)

And some of the footage we think more clearly is on earth. I mean, why would a whole bunch of dark elves get dressed up in battle armor and climb one-by-one over a pile of rocks in their own realm? So it's kind of confusing.

So I wonder if certain locations in Svartalfheim are not just evocative of places in Midgard, but exactly the same. That would mean some of the scenes they are shooting at Greenwich University are on Svartalfheim, and some are on Midgard.

I think in regards to the Bourne woods scenes

Spoiler

That if it's Hela then it may very well be her ship of the dead that she is building that crashes. Like I said that was posted at about the same time they were filming that, and I'm having a hard time picturing a ship flying into Asgard and crashing into *that* massive palace and a stuntman/guard running away. Maybe, but I'm thinking it could be Karnilla's much smaller palace being attacked, assuming this is Nornheim. I think they may very well be working with the Dark Elves to co-ordinate attacks. But I think if they are going to show two big ships crashing like this, they need to make them different.

Spoiler

That's a reasonable point, but why would Hela attack Karmilla's palace? Wouldn't she want to hit the Asgardians?

You are right in that that spoiler came out about the same time as they were shooting the Bourne Woods footage. They don't necessarily shoot scenes in close sequence to one another, so it might be that this crash is at some other part of the movie.

To refresh my memory on the overall storyline we're thinking here, let me know if I'm remembering all this correctly.

Spoiler

Hela marches her army of dishonored dead and has a battle at Bourne Woods, in Nornheim

(or else it is the Vanir or a coalition)

Meanwhile, the Naglfar crashes into Karnilla's palace (or some other small palace).

The assault at Bourne Woods presumably is unsuccessful, thwarted by Thor, Sif, Warriors Three, and various other Asgardians.

The dark elves are allied with Hela, and we need a McGuffin yet (if we don't want to use the ones offered by Andrew Lawden) to get Thor down to Svartalfheim to battle Algrim. We also need a McGuffin to get Jane into a scene with Odin. The dark elves might attack Midgard, but it's not clear what the motive is.

Surtur is manipulating things behind the scenes. Likely he is working through Hela. Surtur changes Algrim into Kurse, perhaps indirectly.

Hela sees this as a chance to gather more souls. Malekith sees this as a moment of power vacuum, with Odin's power waning. Surtur sees this as a chance to get back at Odin for the clash they had millenia ago.

<more plot we haven't figured out yet that brings Thor and Kurse together. Also, Tyr shows up.>
<Alice Krige does something. I guess the most likely idea is as Hela.>
<something happens at Stonehenge. Maybe a portal to Alfheim, maybe to Svartalfheim?>

Perhaps Thor decides not to live in Asgard at the end of the film. (Avengers Tower is an obvious housing choice.)

How's that?

 

[jaqua99]

Actually... this is film so...

Spoiler

You could have Odin and Loki on Asgard fighting Surtur or Hela or both, Odin says "For Asgard!", at the same time cut to Thor on Earth fighting Malekith and/or Kurse and he says "For Midgard!" and then cut back to Loki's face, in response to what Odin just said, just mutter with a roll of the eyes, "For myself..." Could work. I'm tellin' ya. It would be a bad place of a twist if Thor didnt make it back in time and blamed himself, and the Asgardians blamed him too.

Edit: and come to think of it, it makes A LOT more sense for Thor to say "For Midgard" in this context. Hm... I wonder if that's what he's bellowing in that funny picture someone snapped of him. I will LMAO in the theater if it is.

HA! COOL! I watched that as a kid.



I think Odin knows at least something about when he will die, and I suspect that's what the coronation at the beginning of Thor might have been about.



The moral sacrifice being...

Spoiler

that Thor is being asked to let Midgard be taken to protect Asgard and other realms. So in other words, let that one realm go in order to save the many other realms including Asgard. This is not a "moral sacrifice" that Thor can accept however. So he in a way, will be seen as failing Odin and Asgard, but being triumphant for Earth... as the synopsis said "most perilous and personal journey yet" that will "force him to sacrifice everything to save us all".

On Andrew Lawden...


I'm still just a little bit skeptical of some of what he says, some could be him trying to piece things together and making leaps that are not going to be true (they film out of order, so he could be making assumptions that aren't correct) , and some could be misinformation fed out in order to keep fans off balance. One question I had about it for instance, isn't this week the first we've seen of Natalie filming Thor 2? I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if she was in Iceland at all. Also, I just can't believe all this was put out so willingly. It may be true, it may be not true, either way the whole thing is strange.

I like the idea you have about the crater and where the Dark Elves are marching in from. That makes sense.



HA! Well they have big ears, not big eyes... so...

On Jane opening a portal, I just question why they would want to, or anyone would allow her to do that after what happened in Avengers when a portal was opened. They dont know what's on the other side, and probably don't want to know.



I'm thinking more that Heimdall is keeping an eye on Jane and so if Thor shows up suddenly in her world for whatever reason, that Heimdall told him that she's in danger or he needs to talk to her about something she's doing that she shouldn't do, such as what you suggested with the portal.



I think in regards to the Bourne woods scenes

Spoiler

That if it's Hela then it may very well be her ship of the dead that she is building that crashes. Like I said that was posted at about the same time they were filming that, and I'm having a hard time picturing a ship flying into Asgard and crashing into *that* massive palace and a stuntman/guard running away. Maybe, but I'm thinking it could be Karnilla's much smaller palace being attacked, assuming this is Nornheim. I think they may very well be working with the Dark Elves to co-ordinate attacks. But I think if they are going to show two big ships crashing like this, they need to make them different.

t: And keep in mind, if Feige and Marvel is smart then they need to think outside the box, and think of ways to surprise not only the general audience but the established comics fans. Otherwise no surprises for them, and where is the fun in that?




I agree, some adjustment, but it could work. As mentioned elsewhere it's a bit confusing to the general audience to have 2 female figures associated with death here.



Yeah I know! Yay!

These posts are so long and I am getting mentally mixed up lol so I am just going to respond to each one, numbered.

1. I could see that. Though I would prefer at some point

Spoiler

Thor joins his father and brother against surtur

2. I agree, Odin seems to be a bit..weary. I still hope we get a display of his power though, really displaying himself as the most powerful being in the 9 realms as Loki said.

3. BINGO! (that just happened, your day has been made) I think this is probably what's going to happen, having to abandon midgard. This is some analytical thinking, you should be a lawyer, or an analyser lol.

Anyway, i can also see Odin eventually seeing the good of Thor. Seeing the dedication to something he cares about..midgard, even though Asgard is his home, he can see that he feels strongly enough about something. Odin being far more wise than thor, or any of them, I can see him appealing to that, and agreeing in the end, and in his eyes, he understands and that it will make Thor a better king.

4. Regarding Andrew Lawden or whatever. I wouldn't say I am skeptical, I think he believe what he said. I think he MAY be mixing some things up, or remembering things wrong. But generally, that is probably what happened, in a way, Regarding the attack. I mean it's not a WHOLE lot to be putting out. Marvel hasn't pulled him back. Its tricky

5.
(i cant put this in spoiler tags cause i posted it by mistake..and am editing it)

Regarding Hela. I just have a hard time believing she is the villain in the backround. I know they can change things, and it will be good to shake things up/ But the point is Surtur is such a great ending/part of that arc, we are expecting him, and highly anticipating it. Having it changed to Hela, would sort of be like a....wait...what the bad place? type thing...not too sure a lot of people would enjoy it. And again, I can't really see Hela being something that predates the universe itself..especially if she has some direct blood relation to Loki...loki is about 1000 years old...the universe is MUCH older than that. I think Hela is going to be in this movie, but that villain being aluded to in the synopsis is most likely Surtur.

 

[jaqua99]

[Hela marches her army of dishonored dead and has a battle at Bourne Woods, in Nornheim

(or else it is the Vanir or a coalition)

Meanwhile, the Naglfar crashes into Karnilla's palace (or some other small palace).

The assault at Bourne Woods presumably is unsuccessful, thwarted by Thor, Sif, Warriors Three, and various other Asgardians.

The dark elves are allied with Hela, and we need a McGuffin yet (if we don't want to use the ones offered by Andrew Lawden) to get Thor down to Svartalfheim to battle Algrim. We also need a McGuffin to get Jane into a scene with Odin. The dark elves might attack Midgard, but it's not clear what the motive is.

Surtur is manipulating things behind the scenes. Likely he is working through Hela. Surtur changes Algrim into Kurse, perhaps indirectly.

Hela sees this as a chance to gather more souls. Malekith sees this as a moment of power vacuum, with Odin's power waning. Surtur sees this as a chance to get back at Odin for the clash they had millenia ago.

<more plot we haven't figured out yet that brings Thor and Kurse together. Also, Tyr shows up.>
<Alice Krige does something. I guess the most likely idea is as Hela.>
<something happens at Stonehenge. Maybe a portal to Alfheim, maybe to Svartalfheim?>

Perhaps Thor decides not to live in Asgard at the end of the film. (Avengers Tower is an obvious housing choice.)

How's that?
[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]

I am totally on board with 100%. I a few minor dissagreements though, just a few,

Spoiler

One, I am not totally on board with Karnilla yet. Right now, I don't think she is going to appear. Can you go over this, where you are getting this from? I just don't know if I see her appearing. Two, based on the synopsis, I don't think he will JUST be trying to get back at Odin, opposed to destroying the 9 realms

Other than those two things (one of them just being one I am having trouble understanding) I am an board.

 

[elizah72]

I could see that.

and not only that, if they have a moment where Odin says that quote you mentioned, "what better way for a god than to die with his sons by his side?"

Spoiler

but only to Loki, since Thor is not by his side in this scenario, he's defending Midgard, that would certainly tie up the old "daddy issues" arc neatly for Loki before Odin does die, and be very very touching, and probably there are going to be at least some of the Loki fans in tears over it. possibly me included. Would also be interesting as an indicator that Odin knows he will die, as in the stuff you said about them seeing themselves die or not die in a dream the night before.

Not that they are going to quote the comics all over the place, so probably not, and maybe Thor will make it back in time, who knows. but I'm just saying, if Odin does die, then they likely will find a way to have Loki and Odin forgive each other in a moment like this. To tie up that loose end. And that could be where some of the stuff Tom mentioned about "the truth of his broken heart" being "plain for all to see" comes in.

Okay. I thought you were alluding to a different moral sacrifice.

Spoiler

I wonder if Thor will be asked to make some moral sacrifice so as to free Jane from the malevolent spirit.

Maybe, but take a look at this quote and replace America and country with Asgard, and you will understand more where I am coming from, as to this Moral Sacrifice theme...

The vestiges of the conception of patriotism are still seen in America today, as exemplified by the first and third examples given above: “Patriotism means supporting your country, right or wrong,” and, “Being a patriot means serving your country.” The implication of these conceptions is, more or less explicitly, that patriotism is equivalent with sacrifice, either moral or physical.

The physical sacrifice is easy enough to detect. If “good” means serving others, then serving one’s own self-interests is necessarily the “bad.” Using this understanding, “patriotism” means rejecting oneself for the good of one’s country or, as is more commonly the argument, the “common good.”

The moral sacrifice means one must place the “good” and the “bad” on the same moral plane, thus devaluing the “good” and giving undue legitimacy to the “bad.” Man is asked to defend and support his country even when one’s government is acting immorally, i.e. violating individual rights. No reason is given for why man should support his country under such circumstances beyond that it is his country. This is not patriotism. This is nationalism.

source: http://themendenhall.com/2012/07/04/defending-diction-patriotism/

Aw, what's the fun in that? We don't guarantee any of our ideas or assumptions to be right; why should we require it of the stuntman?

I know I'm being a party pooper. But it's been bugging me.

Actually, having slept on it, I like it a little less. A space ship crashing into the ground ought to have more momentum and require a longer stretch to come to rest than they have room at that campus (unless most of the trench is handled digitally).

I agree, not crazy about it. Marvel Freshman I think said something about maybe Svartalfheim was bleeding into Midgard.... so a dimentional rift maybe, that transforms Midgard? Maybe... it would be a new way to do an invasion. Or it could be the filming is on different realms, not just Earth.

Actually, I would think that they would regard it as in their global security interest to have this technology, rather than rely on other races to provide the access (or take it away) whenever they deign to do so. Studying it also would enable the development of better defenses against future incursions into Earth's airspace, as it were.

Maybe, not out of the question, I just dont find it very wise of them. Better to keep those doors closed, never know when a highly PO demi-god might shoot out of it and mayhem ensues...

I don't know if this next part requires a spoiler button, but to be on the safe side, I'll add it.

Spoiler

Seeing more of the pictures that people are posting in the main spoilers thread, people have noted that Thor has two scratches on his forehead. We collectively have supposed that has to have come from a *really* big blow, likely from Kurse. That would put this footage late in the film, meaning it is likely on Svartalfheim. (We don't think everyone would travel all the way to Midgard for the showdown, do we?)

And some of the footage we think more clearly is on earth. I mean, why would a whole bunch of dark elves get dressed up in battle armor and climb one-by-one over a pile of rocks in their own realm? So it's kind of confusing.

So I wonder if certain locations in Svartalfheim are not just evocative of places in Midgard, but exactly the same. That would mean some of the scenes they are shooting at Greenwich University are on Svartalfheim, and some are on Midgard.

See above what I said again about Marvel Freshman's idea. I think this is plausible and may explain some of your questions here.

Re: the palace...

Spoiler

That's a reasonable point, but why would Hela attack Karmilla's palace? Wouldn't she want to hit the Asgardians?

You are right in that that spoiler came out about the same time as they were shooting the Bourne Woods footage. They don't necessarily shoot scenes in close sequence to one another, so it might be that this crash is at some other part of the movie.

If Nornheim is part of Asgard then they would be attacking the Asgardians.

Spoiler

Perhaps they are hitting the weaker outskirts first and making their way into the heart of Asgard. Which makes more sense to me than throwing a ship at Odin's giant golden palace and hoping that works.

Or it could be a dispute with the Vanir, I dont know I haven't worked all this out yet obviously. Initially I thought that fight could be an establishing shot to show how things are crazy in the 9 realms now, with the Vanir coming in and fighting but now I am thinking this may be later in the film when Hela comes in to attack with her army and tries to get control of the outskirts of Asgard first and surround the Asgardians. I think that palace may not be Odin's palace though, because it is so massive and that quote made me think of some guard standing outside the palace doors, seeing a ship approaching and running away, and I just think that might look a little silly on screen in relation to Odin's palace, I guess. I could see it with a smaller less impressive palace though. Could be the crash is at another point in the movie too, true.

I'll have to get back to you later on the other stuff. I'm not sure I agree on everything you have down there but I'd like to think on it some more.

 

[elizah72]

I am totally on board with 100%. I a few minor dissagreements though, just a few,

Spoiler

One, I am not totally on board with Karnilla yet. Right now, I don't think she is going to appear. Can you go over this, where you are getting this from? I just don't know if I see her appearing. Two, based on the synopsis, I don't think he will JUST be trying to get back at Odin, opposed to destroying the 9 realms

Other than those two things (one of them just being one I am having trouble understanding) I am an board.

I'll get back to the other post you had a little later, but wanted to address this.

Spoiler

To clarify, I am thinking that the Bourne woods fights might be located at Nornheim based on the collection of characters fighting there and the wording in the studio's statement that two *kingdoms* are fighting and then Thor comes in. So my thinking is one kingdom is Nornheim being attacked by another kingdom either the Vanir as a set up scene showing the mayhem going on in the 9 realms or it's Hela and her army (since I believe Hel/Niffleheim is her kingdom). It might not be, it may simply be an outskirts of Asgard being attacked (but then again there is the palace thing). but I feel that it's very likely either of those. Either way they dont necessarily have to bring in Karnilla at all. Or they could just show her briefly and not really have much about who she is and her history at all, just a cameo or briefly referred to as the ruler.

Out of curiosity by the way, does she and her people join the fight against Surtur in the comics? Do they ever join forces with the other Asgardians or is it always a combative relationship?

 

[jaqua99]

I'll get back to the other post you had a little later, but wanted to address this.

Spoiler

To clarify, I am thinking that the Bourne woods fights might be located at Nornheim based on the collection of characters fighting there and the wording in the studio's statement that two *kingdoms* are fighting and then Thor comes in. So my thinking is one kingdom is Nornheim being attacked by another kingdom either the Vanir as a set up scene showing the mayhem going on in the 9 realms or it's Hela and her army (since I believe Hel/Niffleheim is her kingdom). It might not be, it may simply be an outskirts of Asgard being attacked (but then again there is the palace thing). but I feel that it's very likely either of those. Either way they dont necessarily have to bring in Karnilla at all. Or they could just show her briefly and not really have much about who she is and her history at all, just a cameo or briefly referred to as the ruler.

Out of curiosity by the way, does she and her people join the fight against Surtur in the comics? Do they ever join forces with the other Asgardians or is it always a combative relationship?

gotcha

and

Spoiler

Karnilla? Geeze, it's been a while since I read the simonson arc. I hardly remember anyone else taking on surtur besides thor odin and loki to be flat out honest with you

and yeah, good luck adressing my other post..becaause I had American Maid's spoiler post in my quote..but i completely screwed it up, and its hard to make heads or tails of. I have to work soon, so I am feelin too lazy to fix that

 

[elizah72]

By the way those couple of videos on the main spoiler thread today with Malekith...

Spoiler

with his arms raised and lights and the big light behind him and such... really making me wonder about Marvel Freshman's idea about Svartalfheim was bleeding into Midgard (like a dimentional rift maybe or something, not just a worm hole). It could definitely be just him transforming Kurse, however that happens, but clearly something BIG is going on there, with all the cameras going around him as he raises his arms, and the lights. Hmmm...

And We still haven't sorted out how Malekith might transform Kurse, if that is the case, and why he doesn't do it sooner against Thor.

3. BINGO! (that just happened, your day has been made) I think this is probably what's going to happen, having to abandon midgard. This is some analytical thinking, you should be a lawyer, or an analyser lol.

OH! I got a BINGO! In capital letters, no less! Yay me!!! t:

I think we have to separate what we want to happen and what certain clues seem to be pointing to happening if we want to get anywhere near the truth.

Anyway, i can also see Odin eventually seeing the good of Thor. Seeing the dedication to something he cares about..midgard, even though Asgard is his home, he can see that he feels strongly enough about something. Odin being far more wise than thor, or any of them, I can see him appealing to that, and agreeing in the end, and in his eyes, he understands and that it will make Thor a better king.

that could certainly be too. But again if...

Spoiler

Odin dies, he takes Surtur out by sacrificing himself (I think something similar in the comics, right?) and if Thor is fighting the Elves on Midgard, and either Thor doesn't get back in time, or gets back to Asgard just as Odin and Surtur have their final battle and a bit late to try to stop Odin dying, then Odin will not be the one judging him. It will be the other Asgardians. And see "moral sacrifice" and patriotism etc. that I quoted up there again. If that is the way the Asgardians think, then they could conceivably shun Thor for deserting Asgard in its greatest time of need, and the death of Odin. Certainly that is a heavy weight for Thor to carry going into Avengers 2 where I believe Joss said he would be getting more personal and twisting a few knives with the characters there. And it would give a very plausible reason for Thor to be hanging out on Earth, shunned and blaming himself for what happened to Odin, (though maybe someone will tell him to read the comics, it happens that way anyway. lol). And of course that could potentially set up Loki on the throne of Asgard for Avengers 2 and maybe even Thor 3. Because he is already recognized as an heir to the throne of Asgard, no matter what he's done, and enough other Asgardians may agree that he has a right to that, (as has happened many times in our own history with monarchies). Some Asgardians may even agree with what he tried to do in Thor 1 to the Jotuns (they all dont necessarily know his true parentage, and they are the "monsters parents tell their children about at night"). Who knows, but it certainly sets up an interesting scenario for both Thor and Loki and completely turns their previous dynamic on it's head. Even if Loki goes in to leadership this time with some good intentions, you know it wont' be long before mischief and mayhem make an appearance.

Spoiler

Regarding Hela. I just have a hard time believing she is the villain in the backround. I know they can change things, and it will be good to shake things up/ But the point is Surtur is such a great ending/part of that arc, we are expecting him, and highly anticipating it. Having it changed to Hela, would sort of be like a....wait...what the bad place? type thing...not too sure a lot of people would enjoy it. And again, I can't really see Hela being something that predates the universe itself..especially if she has some direct blood relation to Loki...loki is about 1000 years old...the universe is MUCH older than that. I think Hela is going to be in this movie, but that villain being aluded to in the synopsis is most likely Surtur.

I might be coming around to believing that finally. it's a lot to put in there though, and I'm a bit concerned you and some others will be disappointed if he's left up to say the very end of the movie for like 5 minutes tops.

 

[elizah72]

To refresh my memory on the overall storyline we're thinking here, let me know if I'm remembering all this correctly.

Spoiler

I'm going to try to do this by bolding the stuff I'm replying to...

Hela marches her army of dishonored dead and has a battle at Bourne Woods, in Nornheim (or else it is the Vanir or a coalition)

Yes, or the Vanir, but I dont think as a coalition is likely with the Vanir. I think they would be smarter than that. But maybe.

We should all thank Tom Hiddleston by the way, since, god of mischief that he is, he actually let something pretty telling loose in that last video interview when he said while Loki and Thor are away that "for all intents and purposes bad place broke loose"...

http://bcove.me/n5b8dygl

bad place broke loose, indeed... what's interesting too is from this quote it would seem that Hela may make her intentions known right at the beginning of the movie.

Meanwhile, the Naglfar crashes into Karnilla's palace (or some other small palace).

Yes, could be Odin's but I'm a bit skeptical of that.

The assault at Bourne Woods presumably is unsuccessful, thwarted by Thor, Sif, Warriors Three, and various other Asgardians.

Don't know yet. The videos I watched made it seem like they were being overpowered, so they may lose ground. My thought is that if it's Hela's army they may be triumphant in the outskirts, making their way to Odin's palace and surrounding it.

The dark elves are allied with Hela, and we need a McGuffin yet (if we don't want to use the ones offered by Andrew Lawden) to get Thor down to Svartalfheim to battle Algrim. We also need a McGuffin to get Jane into a scene with Odin. The dark elves might attack Midgard, but it's not clear what the motive is.

I am still thinking on this stuff, not ready to propose anything quite yet. I'll let you know when I do.

Surtur is manipulating things behind the scenes. Likely he is working through Hela. Surtur changes Algrim into Kurse, perhaps indirectly.

Possibly.

Hela sees this as a chance to gather more souls. Malekith sees this as a moment of power vacuum, with Odin's power waning. Surtur sees this as a chance to get back at Odin for the clash they had millenia ago.

Probably if Surtur is in it. I might add to Malekith's motivations may be linked to being "vengeful" over whoever messed him to to be half dead (or whatever). If it's more of a vendetta against Thor, than Odin, then that could be why he goes for Jane and Midgard. But we know there will be at least one Adewale x Renee x Anthony scene, per the actor, so hm... it could be a past scene showing how Malekith got messed up, and could still be Thor that does it but mom and dad come in to stop Malekith from killing him. (YAY to the idea of some young Thor and/or Loki flashbacks!)

<more plot we haven't figured out yet that brings Thor and Kurse together. Also, Tyr shows up.>
<Alice Krige does something. I guess the most likely idea is as Hela.>
<something happens at Stonehenge. Maybe a portal to Alfheim, maybe to Svartalfheim?>

This stuff, totally a guess but I suspect Tyr will be dead and leading an army either from Valallah or helping Hela. Based on the "first born" line in Thor 1, I suspect that Tyr will not be Thor's brother, but will in fact either be Odin's brother (which then would parallel the relationship between Thor and Loki) or no relation at all. There is an Einherjar Captain listed who will probably be a speaking part, and probably leading the dead good warriors, so I am beginning to wonder if Tyr could be working with Hela as her lead man. I didn't spy him in the Bourne woods scenes though but a lot of people were there.

Alice Krige as Hela, hella yes! LOL more than likely, and I'm very excited at the prospect that she could conceivably be Loki's mother instead of being his daughter. Will be some great dynamics here.

Come to think of it, where does Frigga likely go if she dies early in the film? Valhallah or Hel?

Stonehendge: yes, either of those, or simply a setting for one of those realms and not meant to be Stonehendge at all (just meant to make us wonder where Stonehendge came from, maybe...)

Perhaps Thor decides not to live in Asgard at the end of the film. (Avengers Tower is an obvious housing choice.)

Yup. Other than the frequent loud parties and frequent alien attacks, I bet it's like paradise!