Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[American Maid]

(Hmmm, I continue to be unable to quote your posts. Very weird.)

itchyscratch said, in the main spoilers/news thread:

While the actors know what scenes they shot, I'm guessing at this point they don't know and have zero control over which of their character's scenes gets chopped up or edited out entirely from the final product. If they include some specific Sif/Thor scenes to instigate a bit of jealousy from Jane all of those related scenes could end up on the editing floor if they have better things to fit in the movie.

Elizah said in reply:

Ah, well that's another idea, that it isn't really Sif-Thor so much as it looking to Jane like Sif-Thor had a past and her getting insecure and/or jealous. I'm sort of hoping not, but this is entirely possible. I'd rather have some REAL Sif-Thor action though.

I don't think them having a past would make her insecure (and considering Thor's past, I surely hope not! ) She herself has a Dr. Donald Blake in her past. Something taking place in the present might give her pause, though.

I have off and on thought about the idea of, at the beginning of the movie, Jane is thinking maybe it just can't work--too hard to reach one another, too many big crises--and thinking maybe she needs to think about seeing other people. (Or maybe that's Darcy's advice. Y'know, it's been two years and all.) Well, maybe Thor wonders the same thing, leading to this "Kind of" situation with Sif. (And then the rest of the movie happens.)

I'll also note that you did propose in this space a little while back that Loki disguise himself as Thor and kiss Sif in order to needle Jane, as an homage to a similar stunt he pulled in the Simonson run. So who knows? Maybe it's actually that

 

[elizah72]

That would be this...

Loki disguised as Thor kissing Lorelei, and seriously ticking off Sif. So trade Lorelei for a surprised Sif, and keep Loki pretending to be THor, just in time for Jane to see... hrm... I don't think Jane will be punching anyone out, but maybe (more likely Sif figures out what happened and kicks Loki's butt). LOL It would certainly give Jane pause and be a "kind of" situation for Thor-Sif.

 

[American Maid]

(Still can't quote your posts!)

Regarding the panels you posted ^^, you've missed the best part, the very next panel, top of the next page.
Sif: As for you, you bawd, I leave Thor to your tender embraces! But have a care! False heart once is false heart forever!

So are you reading these now? What you've posted (here and in the Loki thread) looks like scanned pages from an actual bound book. And although I've been picking on Odin, it's all kinds of awesome.

 

[elizah72]

(Still can't quote your posts!)

Regarding the panels you posted ^^, you've missed the best part, the very next panel, top of the next page.
Sif: As for you, you bawd, I leave Thor to your tender embraces! But have a care! False heart once is false heart forever!

So are you reading these now? What you've posted (here and in the Loki thread) looks like scanned pages from an actual bound book. And although I've been picking on Odin, it's all kinds of awesome.

No, just panels, that panel I didn't find thanks. Good for Sif! LOL

 

[jaqua99]

No, just panels, that panel I didn't find thanks. Good for Sif! LOL

READ IT YOUR MISSING OUT lol

 

[cherokeesam]

in other words, thor is a man ****e XD

Hey, give Thor a break. He's had 50 years of comics, and only a handful of women --- Jane, Sif, Lorelei, Amora --- to show for it. That makes him fairly virginal compared to some of the other Avengers.

 

[elizah72]

Hey, give Thor a break. He's had 50 years of comics, and only a handful of women --- Jane, Sif, Lorelei, Amora --- to show for it. That makes him fairly virginal compared to some of the other Avengers.

LOL... i seem to recall seeing a panel where he's in the sack with like half a dozen naked Asgardian chicks, eating golden apples before a battle.... "virginal" my ass.

I'm looking into how I can read that run, jaqua99 but money is an issue right now.

edit: I am now in possession of (for the next 3 weeks) the Mighty Thor Omnibus... aka one freakin' heavy comic book.

 

[elizah72]

Another Jaimie interview, a bit more...
http://collider.com/jaimie-alexander-thor-2-dark-world-intersection-interview/222054/

Alexander: "Two very different people, but both have extraordinary visions for what the film should look like and what it is going to look like. Alan, I feel like the second installment of Thor is much darker, much more rooted in what’s going on in the soul, whereas Ken’s version definitely had that soulfulness but was also lighter and there’s an elegance to his film….I was nervous going into the second one. I meet Alan, he has great ideas, super open to what we want to do as well and knows that we were the character once upon a time. So we can do it again and he puts his spin on it. He’s got some incredible shots in that film. I really enjoyed him a lot."

"You get to experience more of who she is on the inside. You get to see her in a more feminine way and we do explore the Thor/Sif relationship a little bit. That was fun…I definitely have action. But there are scenes, we have a few scenes where we don’t have any action at all and it was actually a lot of fun to play that because you’re not hiding behind a sword or an explosion, it’s just here, in your face. It was nice to see who she really is and that sort of thing. It was fun."

I would definitely say we're getting a love triangle.

The darker is a bit scary for me since I don't like to walk out of the movie theater feeling depressed.... but it is called "The Dark World" so I guess I should prepare myself.

Loki's storyline is already rooted in darkness and what's going on in the soul, but what about the other characters. I recall another Tom quote where he said that because the characters are now established it's exciting to have that springboard ... "so that's when you can begin to play with the most interesting, the most complex, the most surprising elements of everyone"

Old Jameson 60 seconds interview...
[YT]OhXMmqJTy_0[/YT]

so we know Loki is interesting, complex and surprising, how do you suppose that the other characters might surprise us?

 

[American Maid]

(Elizah, I think I am doomed never to quote you directly again )

Elizah said:

so we know Loki is interesting, complex and surprising, how do you suppose that the other characters might surprise us?

This is a good question! I think it will lead to an interesting discussion (at least I hope so!)

Frigga: more wisdom, more power than we were shown in Thor1 (I don't mean to suggest that she wasn't wise in Thor1, just that maybe she will get to say something profound here ) I'd love to see her power of prophecy come into play here.
Speaking of profundity, I get the impression that Volstagg mostly plays the part of the buffoon. But in this Simonson run, every now and again he has something profound to say. I would like to see that in this film, and I think it might surprise people in the story and in the audience
Fandral: sincerity, speaking with candor
Hogun: two lines in a row (in #357 he has three lines in a row!) More seriously, perhaps he might reveal something about how he feels about the destruction of his homeland.
Darcy: seriousness in intent. 04nbod suggested in the Kat Dennings thread that we might see more of the friendship between Jane and her. Perhaps she will feel the need to serve as Jane's advocate at some point in the story (such as when Jane is possessed) and stand up for her.
Thor: For him I'm thinking of something along the lines of how he finally breaks free of Lorelei's love potions in the Simonson run--Mjolnir always returns to Thor's hand, and his willingness to let Loki squirm (#359)
Odin: defers to Thor's judgment
Jane: most of the world doesn't know about Andrew Lawden's spoilers, so being possessed probably is surprising enough to satisfy Hiddleston's comment.
Heimdall: shape shifting (I have the impression he can do that, yes?)
Erik: ?? Drawing a blank for him. I got nothing.

 

[elizah72]

More from Jaimie.... we will see them celebrate, we will see more of their homelife.

[YT]BOl5RaYW36s[/YT]

(Elizah, I think I am doomed never to quote you directly again )

Goodness! You must have angered the messageboard gods!

Frigga: more wisdom, more power than we were shown in Thor1 (I don't mean to suggest that she wasn't wise in Thor1, just that maybe she will get to say something profound here ) I'd love to see her power of prophecy come into play here.

If she has that power. I'd think not, otherwise she wouldn't have let Loki rule in Thor 1. LOL

But yes, I hope she has something profound to say, some great scenes, some wisdom, something that makes her death (if it happens) much more powerful a story than it would be if they just left the relationships as it was in the first film. She was cut out of the first film, much too much.

Speaking of profundity, I get the impression that Volstagg mostly plays the part of the buffoon. But in this Simonson run, every now and again he has something profound to say. I would like to see that in this film, and I think it might surprise people in the story and in the audience

True! I can see him doing that.

Fandral: sincerity, speaking with candor

I'm not sure he doesn't do that anyway. So not sure that's surprising. We were talking about the possibility of him filling in the role of the object of Karnilla's affection, if they have her in it (and I still say those pillars in Bourne really really point to Karnilla and the Norns and Nornheim, even more now that I've seen her various headdresses in the comics). Considering she and Balder were very nearly in Thor 1, and it's not looking like Balder at least will be in Thor 2, then they could very well adjust the story to make her in love with hard to catch dashing playboy Fandral instead. Would be good use of Zach Levi, that's for sure.

Hogun: two lines in a row (in #357 he has three lines in a row!) More seriously, perhaps he might reveal something about how he feels about the destruction of his homeland.

Yeah, they could have Hogun have a "Silent Bob" moment where he all the sudden has a big long speech that is really cutting through the BS of everything going on. That would be a pretty big surprise. LOL

Darcy: seriousness in intent. 04nbod suggested in the Kat Dennings thread that we might see more of the friendship between Jane and her. Perhaps she will feel the need to serve as Jane's advocate at some point in the story (such as when Jane is possessed) and stand up for her.

Her being serious, yeah, that would be a surprise. I think she'll have a defining moment of bravery.

Thor: For him I'm thinking of something along the lines of how he finally breaks free of Lorelei's love potions in the Simonson run--Mjolnir always returns to Thor's hand, and his willingness to let Loki squirm (#359)

Hm.... but that would require a Lorelei and love potion, which I really don't seem them packing in there with everything else. So... not sure how that would work in the context of what we know.

I'm still thinking on how THor might surprise us...

Odin: defers to Thor's judgment

That would be surprising!

Jane: most of the world doesn't know about Andrew Lawden's spoilers, so being possessed probably is surprising enough to satisfy Hiddleston's comment.

yes but I think he is referring to the character, not the possessed character, and I think that if what you suggested a while back about her seeing Asgard and deciding it's not for her (as in the comic) then that would certainly be a pretty big surprise for the audience.... and I think could happen.

Heimdall: shape shifting (I have the impression he can do that, yes?)

Hm. Not sure yet that MCU Loki can, so seems unlikely MCU Heimdall can, but we'll see. I think Heimdall could reveal more loneliness of his post, the dedication to his duty has been at a cost to him. Possibly?

Erik: ?? Drawing a blank for him. I got nothing.

Erik, I think both the connection to Loki and the Tesseract is going to have effected him, made him see the "truth" of things more possibly... and maybe that truth might surprise us.

 

[American Maid]

Elizah said, of Frigga:

If she has that power. I'd think not, otherwise she wouldn't have let Loki rule in Thor 1. LOL

She more or less gave her blessing when Loki took the throne. So I think she was happy for Loki to take charge.

But you're right in that it's not likely that she has (magical) power of her own.

I said:

Fandral: sincerity, speaking with candor

Elizah said:

I'm not sure he doesn't do that anyway.

I was mostly thinking about how he addresses the ladies. There's always some veneer to it.

I said:

Thor: For him I'm thinking of something along the lines of how he finally breaks free of Lorelei's love potions in the Simonson run--Mjolnir always returns to Thor's hand, and his willingness to let Loki squirm (#359)

Elizah said:

Hm.... but that would require a Lorelei and love potion, which I really don't seem them packing in there with everything else. So... not sure how that would work in the context of what we know.

I wasn't proposing that they literally do that scene (though I think Hemsworth and Hiddleston would be very effective in it). What I was thinking of was something of similar emotional content. It's a little bit shocking that he threatens Loki's life. (And I'm not necessarily suggesting that Loki is the target of such wrath, although since he's perennially causing trouble, he's a likely candidate.)

Elizah said, of my comments on Jane:

yes but I think he is referring to the character, not the possessed character

I think that's splitting hairs. Remember how surprised we all were when the spoiler first came out? I think that others who have not yet heard the spoiler would be similarly surprised that her character becomes possessed.

Elizah said of my suggestion that Heimdall could shape shift:

Hm. Not sure yet that MCU Loki can, so seems unlikely MCU Heimdall can, but we'll see. I think Heimdall could reveal more loneliness of his post, the dedication to his duty has been at a cost to him. Possibly?

I can see that. True, it's likely Heimdall won't be able to shape shift. But you have to admit that *would* be a surprise, wouldn't it?

Regarding Erik, Elizah said:

Erik, I think both the connection to Loki and the Tesseract is going to have effected him, made him see the "truth" of things more possibly... and maybe that truth might surprise us.

I can see that.

 

[elizah72]

I didn't realize that Thor didn't actually know that Frigga was not his birth mother until Thor 301 when Gaea his birth mother saved him.

I see she is also sister the Chthon, who you are saying is likely The Other in Avengers. How important is she to the Thor and Marvel comics lore? Do you think they may introduce her at some point as a guardian of Earth and real mother of Thor?

 

[cherokeesam]

I didn't realize that Thor didn't actually know that Frigga was not his birth mother until Thor 301 when Gaea his birth mother saved him.

I see she is also sister the Chthon, who you are saying is likely The Other in Avengers. How important is she to the Thor and Marvel comics lore? Do you think they may introduce her at some point as a guardian of Earth and real mother of Thor?

Probably not. Keeping Frigga as Thor's actual MCU mother keeps it simple, and the MCU *has* to keep it simple, of necessity.

But I just want to say I'm proud of you girls going back and reading the source material and learning so much about the "real" Marvel Thor, and all the other characters.... does my heart proud to see more people becoming true fans..... (I promised myself I wasn't gonna cry....*sniff* )

 

[elizah72]

Probably not. Keeping Frigga as Thor's actual MCU mother keeps it simple, and the MCU *has* to keep it simple, of necessity.

But I just want to say I'm proud of you girls going back and reading the source material and learning so much about the "real" Marvel Thor, and all the other characters.... does my heart proud to see more people becoming true fans..... (I promised myself I wasn't gonna cry....*sniff* )

I think people can be "true" fans of the films but whatever... now if only we could get you reading up on your Norse mythology more to learn about and appreciate the stories of the "real" original Thor and "real" Sif, "real" Odin, and "real" Loki that those Marvel characters were based on. Extensive knowledge and appreciation of all 3 variations, now *that's* a "true" fan.

I agree about Gaea, after I thought about it, it complicates things too much, and not only that if Frigga does die, then that really takes away from the impact of her death if then Odin's like, "oh, yeah, Loki's not the only one I was lying to about parentage." Not to mention it being a bit much to do that to Thor as well as Loki within the films.

Balder has quite a bit to do in the Simonson stuff, and an interesting story of conflict, pain and regret, and of course both he and Karnilla were originally meant to be in Thor 1, with even concept art being done for them (or at least Balder, there is a woman pictured that I am suspicious was meant to be concept for Karnilla but not positive. Only on *that* site so can't link. Just google Thor concept art).

So what do you think about that? If Balder is not appearing at all, might they divide up certain elements of his story to give to other characters (Thor, Fandral, even Loki) in order to use some aspects of that story?

The more I look at the comics Karnilla and her various headdresses, the more I am convinced that images on those pillars at Bourne Woods really do point to her and the 3 Norns and Nornheim. An interview with the Thor 1 writers revealed that there was a whole side trip to Nornheim at the beginning of Thor 1, that had to be removed, but it was on the studios list of things they wanted apparently. So it seems likely Nornheim will be seen at some point.

And how might Balder appear if he is going to be brought into it?

I'll looking into getting at least some of the Everything Burns JIM stuff, as I see that deals with the Aesir-Vanir war(s) some. I see apparently Surtur is involved with that, making a deal with the Vanir to make war with the Asgardians... so, similar to what I've been thinking with certain realms working together against Asgard, a variation on that certainly could be what's going on in the upcoming film.... Surtur pulling strings and getting the other realms to fight and topple the Asgardians. But at some point they'll need to make peace and band together to fight off Surtur. (possibly in Thor 3) It would certainly make an exciting, interesting, complex story!

American Maid: you'll appreciate this, concept art for Thor 1, see the 4th image an aerial view of Asgard. Spot a certain symbol there?
http://conceptartworld.com/?p=7285

There's also one showing Jotunnheim as more of a belt rather than a planet, as it's pictured in the marvel comics map of the 9 realms.

 

[American Maid]

Probably not. Keeping Frigga as Thor's actual MCU mother keeps it simple, and the MCU *has* to keep it simple, of necessity.

I agree.

But I just want to say I'm proud of you girls going back and reading the source material and learning so much about the "real" Marvel Thor, and all the other characters.... does my heart proud to see more people becoming true fans..... (I promised myself I wasn't gonna cry....*sniff* )

Haha--Thanks! The Simonson run certainly has been well worth the struggles I've had with my local library to borrow a copy. (So to anyone reading, I heartily recommend it. If you are in the U.S., it's probably available through inter-library loan, and you'll probably have an easier time obtaining it than I did. (Unless you're in my same library system, in which case you're out of luck because those copies are checked out to *me*!!))

I have long enjoyed comics (mostly small press stuff, though). But life got busy and I stopped reading for the most part. And I have intended to read more since I saw Thor1. It's just taken me this long to have enough time to fit it in. I enjoyed the various Avengers films, but it was Thor1 (and specifically, Jane) that really spun my head around and got me excited about comics again.

But I do have to take issue with the characterization of the Thor of the books being the "real" Thor, implying that Thor of the movies is not the "real" Thor. In the first place, there are 109 alternate realities among the books with mutually conflicting story lines. What is real? For that matter, there are 5 movie versions, 7 TV versions (should be at least 8; the Marvel Wikia has overlooked Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes), and 3 video versions.

In the second place, if movie Thor (by which we all mean Earth-199999) were not authentically Thor, none of us would have gone to the movie N times, bought the disk if we did, and posted on this forum about it.

To be sure, not all of these alternate universes are serious story lines (I am suspicious of "Thoraguatan", for example), but many of them are. Probably a lot of them are one-shots. <shrug> I am sure that all of them have elements of costume, emotional makeup, powers, and motivations that are all authentic to Thor and his supporting cast. From comments I read, people seem to feel that way about Ultimates Thor (they must be referring to Earth-1610; don't know how they feel about Earth-20604 or Earth-81122. See, there's not even one Ultimates Thor). I know that's true of the Thor in Marvel 1602 (Earth-311) and Thor: The Mighty Avenger (Earth-726633). And Earth-199999 Thor as well.

Rather, I regard them all real to the same extent that any of them are real,. (Even Earth-616 is a work of fiction, after all.) All have merit. I see them as different tellings of the tales, all in the spirit of art. And to the extent that the art is well-crafted, they each have something to tell us about the human condition.

 

[American Maid]

Balder has quite a bit to do in the Simonson stuff, and an interesting story of conflict, pain and regret, and of course both he and Karnilla were originally meant to be in Thor 1

Yeah, a blog I read praising the Simonson run (http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/04/12/walt-simonson-thor/) notes that part of what makes it so strong is what he does with the supporting cast, with Balder as an examplar. I agree. So it's a shame not to have this story come to the screen.

So what do you think about that? If Balder is not appearing at all, might they divide up certain elements of his story to give to other characters (Thor, Fandral, even Loki) in order to use some aspects of that story?

Possibly. It's a high-risk, high-reward move. If they parcel it up and give it to other characters, it might fundamentally change the tenor of the story. It could lose its power. Or it could be powerful in a very different way.

I don't think they'll do the march into Hel storyline, but it occurred to me that they might do something akin to the defense of the Gjallerbru (I don't think you (Elizah) are to that part of the story yet; circle back to my comment when you get there.)

But at some point they'll need to make peace and band together to fight off Surtur. (possibly in Thor 3) It would certainly make an exciting, interesting, complex story!

It occurred to me around the time that I had made 700 posts to the Thor fora that the only thing they directly quote from the books in Thor1 is Odin taking Loki as a baby from Jotunheim after the great battle. Everything else is original story for the film (but with similarities in costume, emotional makeup, motivation, etc). This suggests it might be like that for Thor2 as well--original material, not film adaptation of work that has come before.

So it is possible that Surtur is in neither Thor2 nor Thor3. Now, having read that part of the Simonson run, it would be a shame, because that story too was so well done. I'm just saying it's a distinct possibility.

American Maid: you'll appreciate this, concept art for Thor 1, see the 4th image an aerial view of Asgard. Spot a certain symbol there?
http://conceptartworld.com/?p=7285

Indeed I do! Thanks t:

Look also at the 12th image.

 

[elizah72]

Haha--Thanks! The Simonson run certainly has been well worth the struggles I've had with my local library to borrow a copy. (So to anyone reading, I heartily recommend it. If you are in the U.S., it's probably available through inter-library loan, and you'll probably have an easier time obtaining it than I did. (Unless you're in my same library system, in which case you're out of luck because those copies are checked out to *me*!!))

The Simonson Thor Omnibus book might be more readily available but I'll say it again, one freakin' heavy comic book!

re: what is "real", yeah, what AM said. And it's a little off putting also, to basically say that people who like the films alone are not "true" fans. The Cinema is a very very real and legitimate industry. More people might even watch movies than read comics these days. Treating them as not "true" fans is not a great way to encourage those fans to look at the other versions and see if they might become fans of those versions as well, if they get a sense they are treated as lesser fans because they are not as interested in those particular stories and versions (of which there are MANY as AM pointed out). As for me, the Simonson stuff isn't bad, so far beautiful illustrations, some interesting plot and characterization, I still prefer the films though.

It occurred to me around the time that I had made 700 posts to the Thor fora that the only thing they directly quote from the books in Thor1 is Odin taking Loki as a baby from Jotunheim after the great battle. Everything else is original story for the film (but with similarities in costume, emotional makeup, motivation, etc). This suggests it might be like that for Thor2 as well--original material, not film adaptation of work that has come before.

So it is possible that Surtur is in neither Thor2 nor Thor3. Now, having read that part of the Simonson run, it would be a shame, because that story too was so well done. I'm just saying it's a distinct possibility.

It's possible but I think they need a BIG Thor villain for the 3rd, (and possibly some foreshadowing of in the the second) and he seems like he's as big a Thor villain as there is, plus they want to show all the realms I think at some point, and he's an important part of his realm so. I think we'll see him at some point. I'm more curious how they'll handle Hel and Hela and when they'll do that at the moment. one way to bring in Hela, and Hel, and that storyline of a character going to Hel seeing terrible things and being effected by it when he comes back to the living, is if Loki actually did die at the end of Thor 1, and then talked his way out of death one way or another, and maybe some of that shown in flashback. Just a thought... There is a Tom quote somewhere where he says that he felt that Loki went through the equivalent of the "seventh circle of Hell" another where he refers to it as having been through the jungle during that time. Although it certainly appears that this experience did not have the same effect on him as it did Balder.

Look also at the 12th image.

Oh, yeah! I see it, interesting!

and the next one would indicate that somewhere there is a desert/beach. Perhaps a good place for a romantic getaway with some lucky lady and Thor? lol I hope they get all around Asgard but I'm afraid if they get all around the 9 realms there won't be time.

and two planets in the background, I've been assuming it's Alfheim and Vanaheim.

 

[American Maid]

The Simonson Thor Omnibus book might be more readily available but I'll say it again, one freakin' heavy comic book!

Okay, so as a little public service announcement for today, the Simonson run is available in two forms:
Thor Omnibus, by Walt Simonson
or
Thor Visionaries, Volumes 1 - 5, by Walt Simonson.
(I suppose you could also track down back issues. It's #337 - 382, plus Balder the Brave #1-4. But that's really the hard way to go about it!)

As for me, the Simonson stuff isn't bad, so far beautiful illustrations, some interesting plot and characterization, I still prefer the films though.

I enjoy them both. One of the things I like about the Simonson run is the inclusion of so many elements from Norse mythology. When the cast talk about Thor2 having a more "Viking"-like feel, I hope this is what they mean!!

It's good storytelling, too. That there have been several emotional crests makes it all the more impressive.

There is a Tom quote somewhere where he says that he felt that Loki went through the equivalent of the "seventh circle of Hell"

Aw, but that's Dante! ("wrong mythos, sir") Although I will note that the Seventh Circle of Hell concerns violence.

Although it certainly appears that this experience did not have the same effect on him as it did Balder.

Probably, as with the Tesseract, it affects each one differently.

and the next one would indicate that somewhere there is a desert/beach. Perhaps a good place for a romantic getaway with some lucky lady and Thor? lol

Cute , although that spot looks a bit desolate (no vegetation at all).

I'm also intrigued by the eighth image--Thor is standing in some ruins on Asgard. I wonder what that is. ANd look closely at the ruins, and there is that symbol again!

 

[elizah72]

I enjoy them both. One of the things I like about the Simonson run is the inclusion of so many elements from Norse mythology. When the cast talk about Thor2 having a more "Viking"-like feel, I hope this is what they mean!!

It's good storytelling, too. That there have been several emotional crests makes it all the more impressive.

oh, it's enjoyable, no doubt about that.

Aw, but that's Dante! ("wrong mythos, sir") Although I will note that the Seventh Circle of Hell concerns violence.

well that's why he said "equivalent" I guess. The middle circle, interestingly, is for those who commit suicide (violence to themselves), and I'm not entirely sure that's not what Loki did at the end of Thor 1, especially if he DID die.

quick review on all the 7th circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Seventh_Circle_.28Violence.29

nasty place no matter how you died!

one thing I noticed in the Simonson telling is the dragon at the mouth of Hel that eats the souls of those who had fallen in battle (Nidhogg)... and that actually could be what is on Loki's shoulderplate maybe. It's been thought it was Fenris Wolf but maybe not. The image on his plate looks more like Fin Fang Foom but is unlikely to be that since that's not really a character Loki or Thor has dealt with particularly, and I would assume it's presence there means it is something that he has fought or faced at some point... but it could be these two dragons (and maybe Jormungandr too) will look similar or be combined in some way to complicate things less for the MCU cinema audience.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Nidhogg_(Earth-616)

http://marvel.wikia.com/Jormungand_(Earth-616)

http://marvel.wikia.com/Fin_Fang_Foom_(Earth-616)

I believe this first one is Jormungandr impersonating Fin Fang Foom

and this is the real Fin Fang Foom (there is an image of him in Iron Man 1 on a movie poster or something isn't there?)

Loki's shoulder plate from Avengers.... just linking it because it's HUGE..

http://www.duniaku.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Avengers-Loki-Armor-11.jpg

and here is what is supposed to be Fin Fang Foom from the Iron Man 1 poster cameo
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-URssetiNBGw/TlK9fukJwII/AAAAAAAACBo/DNHnc1qJZSc/s640/fin+fang+foom+2.jpg


On the Loki shoulderplate image, specifically look at size and placement of the eyes, nostrils and mouth are also similar to the comcs Fin Fang Foom. Also what is framing the face, could be those ear flaps there or wings, and I also think I see two arms or front legs on the left. And on the left, the most telling is what would appear a long thin tail going from the bottom of the image to the top and curling at the end at the top. That definitely does not appear to be a wolf's tail. And again, if it's on Loki's armor then it seems likely he's come across this particular creature.

I'm also intrigued by the eighth image--Thor is standing in some ruins on Asgard. I wonder what that is. ANd look closely at the ruins, and there is that symbol again!

Oh, yeah I see it, and the fallen statue reminds me of this...

 

[jaqua99]

Probably not. Keeping Frigga as Thor's actual MCU mother keeps it simple, and the MCU *has* to keep it simple, of necessity.

But I just want to say I'm proud of you girls going back and reading the source material and learning so much about the "real" Marvel Thor, and all the other characters.... does my heart proud to see more people becoming true fans..... (I promised myself I wasn't gonna cry....*sniff* )

that's what i was thinking! haha

I think people can be "true" fans of the films but whatever... now if only we could get you reading up on your Norse mythology more to learn about and appreciate the stories of the "real" original Thor and "real" Sif, "real" Odin, and "real" Loki that those Marvel characters were based on. Extensive knowledge and appreciation of all 3 variations, now *that's* a "true" fan.

I agree about Gaea, after I thought about it, it complicates things too much, and not only that if Frigga does die, then that really takes away from the impact of her death if then Odin's like, "oh, yeah, Loki's not the only one I was lying to about parentage." Not to mention it being a bit much to do that to Thor as well as Loki within the films.

Balder has quite a bit to do in the Simonson stuff, and an interesting story of conflict, pain and regret, and of course both he and Karnilla were originally meant to be in Thor 1, with even concept art being done for them (or at least Balder, there is a woman pictured that I am suspicious was meant to be concept for Karnilla but not positive. Only on *that* site so can't link. Just google Thor concept art).

So what do you think about that? If Balder is not appearing at all, might they divide up certain elements of his story to give to other characters (Thor, Fandral, even Loki) in order to use some aspects of that story?

The more I look at the comics Karnilla and her various headdresses, the more I am convinced that images on those pillars at Bourne Woods really do point to her and the 3 Norns and Nornheim. An interview with the Thor 1 writers revealed that there was a whole side trip to Nornheim at the beginning of Thor 1, that had to be removed, but it was on the studios list of things they wanted apparently. So it seems likely Nornheim will be seen at some point.

And how might Balder appear if he is going to be brought into it?

I'll looking into getting at least some of the Everything Burns JIM stuff, as I see that deals with the Aesir-Vanir war(s) some. I see apparently Surtur is involved with that, making a deal with the Vanir to make war with the Asgardians... so, similar to what I've been thinking with certain realms working together against Asgard, a variation on that certainly could be what's going on in the upcoming film.... Surtur pulling strings and getting the other realms to fight and topple the Asgardians. But at some point they'll need to make peace and band together to fight off Surtur. (possibly in Thor 3) It would certainly make an exciting, interesting, complex story!

American Maid: you'll appreciate this, concept art for Thor 1, see the 4th image an aerial view of Asgard. Spot a certain symbol there?
http://conceptartworld.com/?p=7285

There's also one showing Jotunnheim as more of a belt rather than a planet, as it's pictured in the marvel comics map of the 9 realms.

People can be true fans of the films. And prople can be true fans of the comics. I think he just means straying over into the POV that most of us have :P.

and good lord, I don't like that look of Baldar. It's an abomination. But that may be my bias, cause I don't like Balder.

I agree.



Haha--Thanks! The Simonson run certainly has been well worth the struggles I've had with my local library to borrow a copy. (So to anyone reading, I heartily recommend it. If you are in the U.S., it's probably available through inter-library loan, and you'll probably have an easier time obtaining it than I did. (Unless you're in my same library system, in which case you're out of luck because those copies are checked out to *me*!!))

I have long enjoyed comics (mostly small press stuff, though). But life got busy and I stopped reading for the most part. And I have intended to read more since I saw Thor1. It's just taken me this long to have enough time to fit it in. I enjoyed the various Avengers films, but it was Thor1 (and specifically, Jane) that really spun my head around and got me excited about comics again.

But I do have to take issue with the characterization of the Thor of the books being the "real" Thor, implying that Thor of the movies is not the "real" Thor. In the first place, there are 109 alternate realities among the books with mutually conflicting story lines. What is real? For that matter, there are 5 movie versions, 7 TV versions (should be at least 8; the Marvel Wikia has overlooked Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes), and 3 video versions.

In the second place, if movie Thor (by which we all mean Earth-199999) were not authentically Thor, none of us would have gone to the movie N times, bought the disk if we did, and posted on this forum about it.

To be sure, not all of these alternate universes are serious story lines (I am suspicious of "Thoraguatan", for example), but many of them are. Probably a lot of them are one-shots. <shrug> I am sure that all of them have elements of costume, emotional makeup, powers, and motivations that are all authentic to Thor and his supporting cast. From comments I read, people seem to feel that way about Ultimates Thor (they must be referring to Earth-1610; don't know how they feel about Earth-20604 or Earth-81122. See, there's not even one Ultimates Thor). I know that's true of the Thor in Marvel 1602 (Earth-311) and Thor: The Mighty Avenger (Earth-726633). And Earth-199999 Thor as well.

Rather, I regard them all real to the same extent that any of them are real,. (Even Earth-616 is a work of fiction, after all.) All have merit. I see them as different tellings of the tales, all in the spirit of art. And to the extent that the art is well-crafted, they each have something to tell us about the human condition.

off topic a sec, but speaking of EMH, I am so bummed out that the show got canceled. It was so great. Especially season 1, the finally, the whole season being Loki's doing

 

[elizah72]

People can be true fans of the films. And prople can be true fans of the comics. I think he just means straying over into the POV that most of us have :P.

what is a prople?

yeah, probably what he meant.

and good lord, I don't like that look of Baldar. It's an abomination. But that may be my bias, cause I don't like Balder.

yeah I'm not crazy about it either, just as well he wasn't in it.

off topic a sec, but speaking of EMH, I am so bummed out that the show got canceled. It was so great. Especially season 1, the finally, the whole season being Loki's doing

Loki is the guy who brings the party.

 

[American Maid]

off topic a sec, but speaking of EMH, I am so bummed out that the show got canceled. It was so great. Especially season 1, the finally, the whole season being Loki's doing

My understanding is that it will live on as "Avengers Assembled".

But the finale to Season 2 did have the feel of "We've been cancelled", what with Stark worrying about his legacy and all.


Yeah, I didn't like that sketch of Balder either.

Uh, oh, we have Jon, Elizah, and I all agreeing on something simultaneously. Will this trigger Ragnarok??

 

[American Maid]

one thing I noticed in the Simonson telling is the dragon at the mouth of Hel that eats the souls of those who had fallen in battle (Nidhogg)...

?? Nidhogg lives in Niffleheim in myth, and gnaws at the root of Yggdrasil that runs through there.

Balder encounters the Nidhogg when he dies and goes to Hel. But that story takes place before the Simonson run. (Simonson has the issue number in a footnote somewhere, but I don't remember it off the top of my head).

In the Simonson run, they encounter Garm, the hound at the gateway to Hel--issue 361, and again 362 when they make their retreat. (Garm in myth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmr)

and that actually could be what is on Loki's shoulderplate maybe. It's been thought it was Fenris Wolf but maybe not. The image on his plate looks more like Fin Fang Foom but is unlikely to be that since that's not really a character Loki or Thor has dealt with particularly, and I would assume it's presence there means it is something that he has fought or faced at some point... but it could be these two dragons (and maybe Jormungandr too) will look similar or be combined in some way to complicate things less for the MCU cinema audience.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Nidhogg_(Earth-616)
. . .


Loki's shoulder plate from Avengers.... just linking it because it's HUGE..

http://www.duniaku.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Avengers-Loki-Armor-11.jpg
. . .
On the Loki shoulderplate image, specifically look at size and placement of the eyes, nostrils and mouth are also similar to the comcs Fin Fang Foom. Also what is framing the face, could be those ear flaps there or wings, and I also think I see two arms or front legs on the left. And on the left, the most telling is what would appear a long thin tail going from the bottom of the image to the top and curling at the end at the top. That definitely does not appear to be a wolf's tail. And again, if it's on Loki's armor then it seems likely he's come across this particular creature.

I didn't spot the tail on the shoulder plate, but it doesn't seem important that I do.

Looking at the Nidhogg picture, I think the image on the shoulder plate is Nidhogg.

I believe this first one is Jormungandr impersonating Fin Fang Foom

Fin Fang Foom appears to be everyone's favorite Halloween costume. Here is Heimdall impersonating Fin Fang Foom:

Oh, yeah I see it, and the fallen statue reminds me of this...

Yeah, I can see that!

 

[elizah72]

?? Nidhogg lives in Niffleheim in myth, and gnaws at the root of Yggdrasil that runs through there.

Balder encounters the Nidhogg when he dies and goes to Hel. But that story takes place before the Simonson run. (Simonson has the issue number in a footnote somewhere, but I don't remember it off the top of my head).

In the Simonson run, they encounter Garm, the hound at the gateway to Hel--issue 361, and again 362 when they make their retreat. (Garm in myth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmr)


I didn't spot the tail on the shoulder plate, but it doesn't seem important that I do.

Looking at the Nidhogg picture, I think the image on the shoulder plate is Nidhogg.

I may have been confusing myself between panels I've seen on the net and where I am in the book sorry. I thought it was referred to in the book though.

I agree, but I'm saying they may take some aspects of all of those dragons/serpents to make him up (both story and look) and use him instead of Jormungandr maybe. And again, it's presence on Loki's armor makes me think that he likely has come face to face with that creature already, perhaps on his way out of Hel to meet up with Thanos. Sort of a point of pride that he's faced death and lived to tell the tale.

I think it would be easier to fit into the MCU using Nidhogg this way, than to have to explain how Jormungandr is Loki's offspring. As it is I think they will have to make some big changes to who Hela is (or just not say at all), since it would be much complicated and difficult to explain in the current context of the MCU.

I forgot too, that Nidhogg should be pictured at the bottom of Yggdrasil in Captain America, (where Red Skull pushes in the eye and causes that panel to open)... so I'll have to take a look at that to see if it looks like the image on that shoulder plate at all.

Yeah, I can see that!

and that actually makes me think of my idea that I was floating with you in PM that maybe they'll have the Balder story as something that happened long ago, especially considering Tyr is played by an actor that is older than Renee, so not going to be Frigga's son, but he (and Balder) could be changed to Odin's brothers maybe... with some adjustments to the story, if some of this is told in flashbacks. But I'm afraid Jon will say the movie's getting too BIG if that happens (and it probably is)... but if that's hinted at maybe, or maybe to revealed more in the 3rd film with Tyr showing up as one of Odin's brothers in this one.

 

[cherokeesam]

I think people can be "true" fans of the films but whatever...

As Jaqua said, I didn't mean to imply that people who were fans of *just* the films weren't "true" fans; but that it's great to see people who are fans of the film start delving into the comics to become "true" fans of the comic book canon as well.

now if only we could get you reading up on your Norse mythology more to learn about and appreciate the stories of the "real" original Thor and "real" Sif, "real" Odin, and "real" Loki that those Marvel characters were based on. Extensive knowledge and appreciation of all 3 variations, now *that's* a "true" fan.

Not to worry....I got a minor in Comparative Mythology back in '87 . I've studied every mythos out there, pretty much --- Norse, Greek, Celtic, Mesopotamian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Egyptian, Mayan, Aztec, even plenty of tribal religions, including my own tribe and other Native Americans, Africans, Vodoun, etc.