Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[Steamteck]

Here's my theory, which will hopefully give people a little more faith in Terrio, which I believe he deserves after his outing with Argo. With TDK, which is arguably the best script Goyer has worked on to date, Christopher Nolan's brother was another writing credit with the screenplay. So I'd say Goyer is decent at getting broad ideas out there, but is terrible at actually articulating them properly. Granted the same teams were responsible for TDKR, which had some questionable dialogue. That said though, it seems like Goyer's best work comes about when there's somebody to filter his ideas and tighten up the dialogue and screenplay. In the case of TDK it was Jonathan Nolan, in the case of BvS it's Chris Terrio.

.

Probably helps other people a lot but since I think TDK screenplay was way worse than Begins, not me.

Darn, now you got me going over moments of both in my mind and I again taste the bitter pill of disappointment after the potential left by Begins

 

[DA_Champion]

Even if one praises the Batman Begins screenplay, it's a screenplay that Goyer wrote in 2003 or so. He's a different man now.

 

[Young Superman]

Very good

 

[jmc]

Here's my theory, which will hopefully give people a little more faith in Terrio, which I believe he deserves after his outing with Argo. With TDK, which is arguably the best script Goyer has worked on to date, Christopher Nolan's brother was another writing credit with the screenplay. So I'd say Goyer is decent at getting broad ideas out there, but is terrible at actually articulating them properly. Granted the same teams were responsible for TDKR, which had some questionable dialogue. That said though, it seems like Goyer's best work comes about when there's somebody to filter his ideas and tighten up the dialogue and screenplay. In the case of TDK it was Jonathan Nolan, in the case of BvS it's Chris Terrio.

People may have their criticisms about Argo, but it's a good example of a neat narrative that required juggling a lot of characters which Terrio did successfully. I'm not saying Terrio is going to make BvS a Best Picture contender, but people who keep saying "Aww well BvS has the exact same creative team as MoS, so it'll be exactly the same in terms of script quality" are deliberately ignoring Terrio's involvement. He doesn't have an extensive track record, but the fact that he's won an academy award for doing well in the aspect that Goyer lacks in shouldn't be ignored.

I hate to keep bringing this up but the script is only as good as the man behind the camera interpreting it. I don't know why it is but for whatever reason with Snyder movies a lot of people focus more on the script than the director reading said script.

 

[The Batman]

^ Honestly, if Nolan directed MOS, with that same script from Goyer, it would've probably been a better movie than Snyder's version.

 

[jmc]

The thing that kinda bugs me is this notion that it's the scripts with Snyder's films. The director is the last line of defence for a movie, his job isn't just to put down what's on the page, it's about understanding what's being written in the first place.

 

[Rodrigo90]

But what were you supposed to understand or interpret from Goyer's script?

Snyder shouldn't get all the blame. Let's not forget, Terrio was brought in because Goyer wrote BvS in such a terrible way.

 

[The Batman]

The problem is that Snyder dosen't get any of the blame among certain fanboys.

 

[jmc]

A good director is also a good story teller and knows when a story needs to be fixed. At the end of the day the director is still the last line of defence, even the best script on the planet can get screwed up by someone who doesn't fully understand storytelling principles. I mean this literally but anyone can shoot any movie script.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The problem is that Snyder dosen't get any of the blame among certain fanboys.

The director is the captain of the ship. Snyder told everybody involved in that film what do, in front and behind the camera.

But Goyer still gave him that map to follow through on. Nolan would have filtered out the bad stuff, and judging by the script for Batman Begins, he had changed a lot of what Goyer originally wrote. But it was the same movie, going along the same lines of what Goyer wrote and MOS was nothing compared to what he brought for BB.

 

[The Question]

And a good director can salvage a flawed or mediocre script, at least to some extent. I think The Dark Knight has a great script, but it did have some problems with corny and wooden dialogue. But, Nolan directed the scenes and the actors well enough that he was able to sell the corny dialogue. Directors can also create subtext and meaning that may not be present in the scrip through how they frame and edit a shot, what things in a shot they decide to draw attention to, and how they work with the actors and how they direct them to interpret their dialogue. The director can't fix everything wrong with a bad script without rewrites, but they can make a lot of improvements.

 

[DA_Champion]

The problem is that Snyder dosen't get any of the blame among certain fanboys.

As I see it Snyder took a relatively weak story and script and elevated with good casting, visuals, scire and high tempo pacing which thus provided an epic feel to the movie. Zod committing suicide at the end rather than merely falling into the phantom zone was his idea.

Without Snyder, this could have been like Green Lantern.

 

[The Question]

Zod committing suicide at the end rather than merely falling into the phantom zone was his idea.

That's not necessarily a good idea.

 

[DA_Champion]

I mean this literally but anyone can shoot any movie script.

You keep saying that.

But when I imagine random Joe Blow with a great script being put in charge of everything from shot framing to casting to costume design, I see a disaster.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's not necessarily a good idea.

I think that Zod committing suicide at the end because he had nothing left to live for was pretty interesting.

The ending to Superman 2 or the Zod arcsin Smallville? They bore me.

 

[The Question]

I think that Zod committing suicide at the end because he had nothing left to live for was pretty interesting.

The ending to Superman 2 or the Zod arcsin Smallville? They bore me.

Except…

A: I'm not sure it had anything to do with what the movie was about (or if it did, the connection wasn't super clear).

B: That came after an extended fight sequence that happened right after another extended fight sequence and was, essentially, a second climax. Not good pacing.

 

[jmc]

You keep saying that.

But when I imagine random Joe Blow with a great script being put in charge of everything from shot framing to casting to costume design, I see a disaster.

That's kinda my point. Just because someone is given a script doesn't mean they understand what to do with it.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's kinda my point. Just because someone is given a script doesn't mean they understand what to do with it.

If Snyder had no idea how to interpret a script then no further clarification would be necessary, however he does do somethings well.

 

[jmc]

If Snyder had no idea how to interpret a script then no further clarification would be necessary, however he does do somethings well.

He's not a total noob like what some random person off the street would be, but his understanding of how to tell a story is still severely undercooked. Again, just because a script is polished 100% doesn't mean it's just a simple case of copy and paste.

 

[Tempest]

Oooh, Snyder directed Dawn of the Dead?

I saw most of that.

 

[DA_Champion]

He's not a total noob like what some random person off the street would be, but his understanding of how to tell a story is still severely undercooked. Again, just because a script is polished 100% doesn't mean it's just a simple case of copy and paste.

I think we all agree that Snyder's interpretive and translative skills are somewhere in the distribution, we can't disagree as that's tautological.

Perhaps what some people mean by a good script is that it's the kind of script that Snyder specifically would end up executing better? I'm not completely sure what that script would look like to be honest, it would take a very detailed, very precise awareness of the specific things Snyder does well, something more elaborate than "Snyder is good at visuals".

 

[jmc]

I think we all agree that Snyder's interpretive and translative skills are somewhere in the distribution, we can't disagree as that's tautological.

Perhaps what some people mean by a good script is that it's the kind of script that Snyder specifically would end up executing better? I'm not completely sure what that script would look like to be honest, it would take a very detailed, very precise awareness of the specific things Snyder does well, something more elaborate than "Snyder is good at visuals".

The thing is we all know where Snyder likes to play when it comes to movies, it's big visuals. I'm not sure I like the idea of a 2 and a half hour film tailored to that type of movie making.

 

[DA_Champion]

The thing is we all know where Snyder likes to play when it comes to movies, it's big visuals. I'm not sure I like the idea of a 2 and a half hour film tailored to that type of movie making.

I think that there's more to his movies than that. They're not just lava lamps.

A common theme, for example, is the tragic nature of heroism, which after I had brought up once I learned was listed under Snyder on IMDB. 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, Man of Steel all have the hero sacrificing a bit of themselves in order to complete their mission. In 300, Leonidas dies and also Queen Gorgo has some sex she doesn't want to have in order to advance Spartan interests. In Sucker Punch, depending on how you interpret the movie babydoll has to stay behind at the end so that sweet pea can move forward.

That is a deviation from the norm in comic book movies, where triumph is usually portrayed as comprehensive and without blemish.

 

[Boy Scout]

I will say that Snyder made the film feel epic.

 

[The Question]

I think that there's more to his movies than that. They're not just lava lamps.

A common theme, for example, is the tragic nature of heroism, which after I had brought up once I learned was listed under Snyder on IMDB. 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, Man of Steel all have the hero sacrificing a bit of themselves in order to complete their mission. In 300, Leonidas dies and also Queen Gorgo has some sex she doesn't want to have in order to advance Spartan interests. In Sucker Punch, depending on how you interpret the movie babydoll has to stay behind at the end so that sweet pea can move forward.

That is a deviation from the norm in comic book movies, where triumph is usually portrayed as comprehensive and without blemish.

That doesn't have anything to do with his direction, though. Those are all plot details. How does his direction service that theme?

I will say that Snyder made the film feel epic.

I'm not sure epic is always a good thing. Epic can actually get int the way of story sometimes. I think the impulse of the filmmakers to make the fights epic got in the way of the actual storytelling and humanity of the piece.