Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[Rodrigo90]

The story is Goyer and Snyder's, so what's Terrio changing?

 

[Steamteck]

The story is Goyer and Snyder's, so what's Terrio changing?

I guess we'll see. He's just the element I have least confidence in.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I guess we'll see. He's just the element I have least confidence in.

Blame Affleck if it cocks up

 

[hopefuldreamer]

The story is Goyer and Snyder's, so what's Terrio changing?

The actual dialogue.

Which is definitely for the best. If there is one thing 99% of people agree on, it's that Goyer's strength lies in the IDEAS, not necessarily the actual script.

And that's coming from someone who doesn't mind most of the dialogue in Batman Begins that people find hokey.

Same with Snyder.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The actual dialogue.

Which is definitely for the best. If there is one thing 99% of people agree on, it's that Goyer's strength lies in the IDEAS, not necessarily the actual script.

And that's coming from someone who doesn't mind most of the dialogue in Batman Begins that people find hokey.

Same with Snyder.

The dialogue in MOS came off as almost Nolan like...Like it was trying to sound otherworldly and philosophical.

That's why most of the characters in MOS seem unnatural, there's just hardly any human banter.

 

[Tempest]

I know you weren't taling to me, but I thought the opening on Krypton, while fine, was way too long. I think, when it comes to that aspect of the mythology, less is often more.

Anybody can talk about it.

I have the same opinion. I thought it was gorgeous, but at the same time, it was way too long. I did like seeing the difference between Jor-El and Zod, in how they attempted to execute plans to save Krypton.

 

[Boy Scout]

I liked that a friendship between them was hinted at.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Yeah, it was too long, but at the same time it was one of my favorite parts of the movie, so I dunno. I guess if I could remove something it would be the fight between Jor-El and Zod. Since it wasn't a really big plot point later, it coud have been removed, and Jor-El was gonna die anyway, no?

 

[DeadPresident]

The story is Goyer and Snyder's, so what's Terrio changing?

Terrio supposedly reworked/rewrote a lot of the script...That's been common knowledge for months. And it's also not too much of a logical leap to assume he's there to fix the weaknesses Goyer has, namely dialogue and certain plot points.

 

[Boy Scout]

Yeah, it was too long, but at the same time it was one of my favorite parts of the movie, so I dunno. I guess if I could remove something it would be the fight between Jor-El and Zod. Since it wasn't a really big plot point later, it coud have been removed, and Jor-El was gonna die anyway, no?

Same.

I would have tried to get everything done in ten minutes or less. Any further explanation would have been done through either exposition or flashbacks.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Terrio supposedly reworked/rewrote a lot of the script...That's been common knowledge for months. And it's also not too much of a logical leap to assume he's there to fix the weaknesses Goyer has, namely dialogue and certain plot points.

I can't believe Goyer's script was THAT bad. How does this guy keep getting work?

I won't pretend that anything that anybody writes is pure gold, but he's really not that great.

 

[DeadPresident]

I can't believe Goyer's script was THAT bad. How does this guy keep getting work?

I won't pretend that anything that anybody writes is pure gold, but he's really not that great.

Here's my theory, which will hopefully give people a little more faith in Terrio, which I believe he deserves after his outing with Argo. With TDK, which is arguably the best script Goyer has worked on to date, Christopher Nolan's brother was another writing credit with the screenplay. So I'd say Goyer is decent at getting broad ideas out there, but is terrible at actually articulating them properly. Granted the same teams were responsible for TDKR, which had some questionable dialogue. That said though, it seems like Goyer's best work comes about when there's somebody to filter his ideas and tighten up the dialogue and screenplay. In the case of TDK it was Jonathan Nolan, in the case of BvS it's Chris Terrio.

People may have their criticisms about Argo, but it's a good example of a neat narrative that required juggling a lot of characters which Terrio did successfully. I'm not saying Terrio is going to make BvS a Best Picture contender, but people who keep saying "Aww well BvS has the exact same creative team as MoS, so it'll be exactly the same in terms of script quality" are deliberately ignoring Terrio's involvement. He doesn't have an extensive track record, but the fact that he's won an academy award for doing well in the aspect that Goyer lacks in shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Here's my theory, which will hopefully give people a little more faith in Terrio, which I believe he deserves after his outing with Argo. With TDK, which is arguably the best script Goyer has worked on to date, Christopher Nolan's brother was another writing credit with the screenplay. So I'd say Goyer is decent at getting broad ideas out there, but is terrible at actually articulating them properly. Granted the same teams were responsible for TDKR, which had some questionable dialogue. That said though, it seems like Goyer's best work comes about when there's somebody to filter his ideas and tighten up the dialogue and screenplay. In the case of TDK it was Jonathan Nolan, in the case of BvS it's Chris Terrio.

People may have their criticisms about Argo, but it's a good example of a neat narrative that required juggling a lot of characters which Terrio did successfully. I'm not saying Terrio is going to make BvS a Best Picture contender, but people who keep saying "Aww well BvS has the exact same creative team as MoS, so it'll be exactly the same in terms of script quality" are deliberately ignoring Terrio's involvement. He doesn't have an extensive track record, but the fact that he's won an academy award for doing well in the aspect that Goyer lacks in shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Boy Scout]

Argo was well written, yes, but MOS had several talented people involved and (IMO) still didn't deliver. I' choose to remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[DeadPresident]

Argo was well written, yes, but MOS had several talented people involved and (IMO) still didn't deliver. I' choose to remain cautiously optimistic.

I'm not accusing you of this personally, because from what I recall your posts are quite consistent, but people only call MoS's group talented when it suits them.

When I see people criticize MoS it's usually "Yeah, well Snyder isn't even a good film maker and Goyer can't write for ****", and then when people defend MoS the response is "Well I mean look at that talented team, why was MoS so bad?". Discussing MoS in any way on SHH is such a circular thing, because there are so many stealth detractors that completely disregard anything the movie may have done right.

I'm quite sure I've seen the same people argue both sides in different threads.

It's either "MoS sucks despite the talented people" or "There was no talent that's why MoS was bad". Everybody adjusts their arguments to whatever "proves" that A) MoS was really, really bad and B) BvS is destined to fail. "Cautious optimism" often blurs into "Poorly disguised contempt". Again, not you personally, but a prevailing notion on these boards.

 

[Dr.]

Yeah, it was too long, but at the same time it was one of my favorite parts of the movie, so I dunno. I guess if I could remove something it would be the fight between Jor-El and Zod. Since it wasn't a really big plot point later, it could have been removed, and Jor-El was gonna die anyway, no?

The opening Krypton sequence in MOS runs about 18 minutes. The tricky part about excising the Jor-El/Zod fight is that some crucial information (Zod’s knowledge of Kal-El, the codex being onboard Kal’s escape ship) occurs during this fight. So if this scene were deleted (saving time), the pertinent info would have to be incorporated into other scenes (adding time). Plus - Zod wouldn’t be Jor-El’s murderer (a detail I rather liked).

FYI, the Krypton sequence in STM is only a minute shorter - 17 minutes.

 

[Rodrigo90]

In my script, it's 16 minutes

If I can do that, why couldn't they?

 

[Boy Scout]

I'm not accusing you of this personally, because from what I recall your posts are quite consistent, but people only call MoS's group talented when it suits them.

A fair observation.

When I see people criticize MoS it's usually "Yeah, well Snyder isn't even a good film maker and Goyer can't write for ****", and then when people defend MoS the response is "Well I mean look at that talented team, why was MoS so bad?". Discussing MoS in any way on SHH is such a circular thing, because there are so many stealth detractors that completely disregard anything the movie may have done right.

MOS is the only Snyder film I've seen all the way through. While MOS was filming, I kept an open mind and focused on the all the acclaim he had received from fans of his previous films. In the end, I thought he did an okay job. The film is visually impressive (despite the boring cinematography), but emotionally shallow. I'm not sure if he's capable of directing actors. However, since (again) I've only seen one of his movies, I'm willing to give him another chance.

I thought Goyer did a fine job with BB, and believed his general involvement with the TDKT guaranteed a film of similar quality. That wasn't the case and I'm glad he's gone.

Amy Adams and Russel Crowe were the only actors I was familiar with going in, but I very quickly bought into the hype that Snyder had assembled a talented cast. Overall, I found the acting to be unremarkable.

 

[DA_Champion]

You have not watched Dawn of the Dead? 300? Watchmen?

 

[Boy Scout]

No.

 

[DeadPresident]

MOS is the only Snyder film I've seen all the way through. While MOS was filming, I kept an open mind and focused on the all the acclaim he had received from fans of his previous films. In the end, I thought he did an okay job. The film is visually impressive (despite the boring cinematography), but emotionally shallow. I'm not sure if he's capable of directing actors. However, since (again) I've only seen one of his movies, I'm willing to give him another chance.

That's fair enough. I found the film quite emotionally loaded, but that was probably down to the events, not necessarily the actors emoting properly (although I personally liked Cavill's stoic persona). The bold is an interesting point, and could definitely be relevant to MoS in particular. I haven't seen Sucker Punch, but I own 300, MoS and Watchmen. I'd say Watchmen is Snyder's best in terms of good performances from the actors, Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Patrick Wilson (and maybe Jackie Earle Haley too) stand out as giving fairly good performances. But in 300 and MoS I think it's a valid criticism that the performances don't really light the screen up.

I thought Goyer did a fine job with BB, and believed his general involvement with the TDKT guaranteed a film of similar quality. That wasn't the case and I'm glad he's gone.

I believe the majority of TDKT's success came from most of Goyer's cringe-worthy stuff probably being edited out by Jonathan Nolan. I thought BB and TDK were quite fine in terms of the writing. With MoS Goyer was responsible for story and screenplay writing credits with little input from another party. Without a filter I think we got the shoddy dialogue and off pacing. That's why I'm hoping Terrio can be the voice of reason and reign in Goyer (and even Snyder to a degree) because both Goyer and Snyder sometimes like indulging a bit too much.

Amy Adams and Russel Crowe were the only actors I was familiar with going in, but I very quickly bought into the hype that Snyder had assembled a talented cast. Overall, I found the acting to be unremarkable.

Yeah, I can see that. It may be a combination of the writing giving most of the actors very little to work with, and it didn't help that all the actors were basically doing the same kind of grim tone. Hopefully with BvS there's a bit more of a spectrum, instead of everybody going on the same frequency. I thought the best scenes in terms of performance were Cavill's with Diane Lane, Michael Shannon and Russell Crowe. The rest of it was pretty lukewarm.

 

[DA_Champion]

No.

Start with DotD.

 

[DeadPresident]

No.

I haven't seen DotD, but from Snyder's filmography that I am familiar with I'd say Watchmen is far and away his best. If people expect the film equivalent of how remarkable the graphic novel is they won't get that, but it's a great adaptation IMO. It gets criticized for being too flashy, and missing the tone of what Watchmen was trying to communicate. But I think if Snyder made it completely faithful to the graphic novel people would've called it dull. I'd recommend giving it a shot.

 

[Boy Scout]

That's fair enough. I found the film quite emotionally loaded, but that was probably down to the events, not necessarily the actors emoting properly (although I personally liked Cavill's stoic persona).

The material was there; Snyder just did a lousy job of bringing it to life (IMO).

The bold is an interesting point, and could definitely be relevant to MoS in particular. I haven't seen Sucker Punch, but I own 300, MoS and Watchmen. I'd say Watchmen is Snyder's best in terms of good performances from the actors, Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Patrick Wilson (and maybe Jackie Earle Haley too) stand out as giving fairly good performances. But in 300 and MoS I think it's a valid criticism that the performances don't really light the screen up.

I've heard people say that those actors gave great performances in spite of him, not because of him. Whether or not that's true, I can't say.

I believe the majority of TDKT's success came from most of Goyer's cringe-worthy stuff probably being edited out by Jonathan Nolan. I thought BB and TDK were quite fine in terms of the writing.

Agreed.

With MoS Goyer was responsible for story and screenplay writing credits with little input from another party. Without a filter I think we got the shoddy dialogue and off pacing. That's why I'm hoping Terrio can be the voice of reason and reign in Goyer (and even Snyder to a degree) because both Goyer and Snyder sometimes like indulging a bit too much.

I hope so.

Yeah, I can see that. It may be a combination of the writing giving most of the actors very little to work with, and it didn't help that all the actors were basically doing the same kind of grim tone. Hopefully with BvS there's a bit more of a spectrum, instead of everybody going on the same frequency.

I hope to see more humor in DOJ, particularly between Lois and Clark and Batman and Superman.

I thought the best scenes in terms of performance were Cavill's with Diane Lane, Michael Shannon and Russell Crowe. The rest of it was pretty lukewarm.

Shannon gave the best performance, followed by Lane. Adams was bland; Cavill a bit too stiff at times (though overall fine); and Crowe was...well...dry.

Start with DotD.

Maybe. To tell you the truth, my interest in Snyder's filmography doesn't extend beyond Superman and the Justice League.

I haven't seen DotD, but from Snyder's filmography that I am familiar with I'd say Watchmen is far and away his best. If people expect the film equivalent of how remarkable the graphic novel is they won't get that, but it's a great adaptation IMO. It gets criticized for being too flashy, and missing the tone of what Watchmen was trying to communicate. But I think if Snyder made it completely faithful to the graphic novel people would've called it dull. I'd recommend giving it a shot.

I've seen maybe the first forth-five minutes of Watchmen. It was okay. I doubt I'll finish it any time soon.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

No.

Skip them if you have watched the 300 trailer, you've seen most of the movie.