Justice League Ray Fisher - WB Investigation Updates Thread

[KalvinEllis]

I've always tried to be fair towards Ray. I'm sure I'm not always doing a good job but I always try to make a fair assessment between his claims and what we know about the situation on a creative level. As both a fan who's invested in those characters and as a human being, I think it's my moral obligation to not take everything I hear about this at face value and question what I believe is warranted to be questioned. The one time I didn't believe him at all is when he called Geoff Johns a racist because that's nothing I've ever heard about him before and I still have a hard time to process it. I'm sure some ugly stuff happened on that set, we all know about it at this point, the question is to what extent. What does "abhorrent racist" mean, what does "coercive, discriminatory and retaliatory behavior" mean. He's using a lot of very strong specific words that can instantly destroy anyone's life and career and I feel something like this can't just be taken at face value when it's not backed up. There should be a balance between how people judge what he says without either completely dismissing it or taking it as the gospel.

 

[Mysteryman]

I've always tried to be fair towards Ray. I'm sure I'm not always doing a good job but I always try to make a fair assessment between his claims and what we know about the situation on a creative level. As both a fan who's invested in those characters and as a human being, I think it's my moral obligation to not take everything I hear about this at face value and question what I believe is warranted to be questioned. The one time I didn't believe him at all is when he called Geoff Johns a racist because that's nothing I've ever heard about him before and I still have a hard time to process it. I'm sure some ugly stuff happened on that set, we all know about it at this point, the question is to what extent. What does "abhorrent racist" mean, what does "coercive, discriminatory and retaliatory behavior" mean. He's using a lot of very strong specific words that can instantly destroy anyone's life and career and I feel something like this can't just be taken at face value when it's not backed up. There should be a balance between how people judge what he says without either completely dismissing it or taking it as the gospel.

If you are saying that if Ray cannot legally back up his claims, that he should just say nothing at all, I agree with you.

 

[KalvinEllis]

If you are saying that if Ray cannot legally back up his claims, that he should just say nothing at all, I agree with you.

No, I am saying I can't just believe incendiary claims to that level. I questioned his other claim about Johns bragging to him about Doom Patrol Cyborg as well, because it seemed really immature to me, but this? He's literally making this guy look like a monster. I need something more to believe that.

 

[emielaen]

Nobody's taking sides. The day actual evidence comes forward that these guys did what Fisher says they did, I'm all for them getting their reasonable punishment. I'm not out to disbelieve him. He just hasn't said anything all that new as of late.

I don't think anyone here is genuinely rooting for Goliath... I hope not at least.

 

[batdude]

The thing is Ray is being extremely vague. Charisma Carpenter was very specific. I mean I think Joss Whedon obviously did SOMETHING. I'm still not sure exactly what. to say Geoff Johns, who is one of my favorite comic writers should lose his job just for asking Fisher to be specific or liking the guy who played Cyborg in Doom Patrol better is ridiculous. How long were these reshoots anyway?

 

[emc5466]

My understanding is that everyone just wanted Fisher to stick to the script that Whedon was writing.

 

[idiot09]

Ray is responding to the woman who was fired from Superman and Lois's writing team, after she brought up issues of sexism and black representation in the script.

 

[Schlosser85]

Representation of Cyborg’s genitals?

What the ****

 

[MbJ]

I recall the topic of Cyborg having his genitals blown off during his New 52 origin being the topic of discussion some years back. David Walker, the guy who wrote the later Cyborg solo book, made a comment about undoing that because he found it suspect.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I recall the topic of Cyborg having his genitals blown off during his New 52 origin being the topic of discussion some years back. David Walker, the guy who wrote the later Cyborg solo book, made a comment about undoing that because he found it suspect.

I wonder why and how the convo came up with Johns.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I'm curious why that topic was brought up, especially when New-52 Cyborg learned how to control his nanites and form his human body again. Johns wrote Cyborg in the Teen Titans and the Justice League for a decade, so it's not unreasonable for him to think he knows the character well. If nothing else, I suppose whatever discussions Ray had with him about this, both must have thought at one point that Cyborg could actually get his standalone movie. Either way, this is kind of silly and and at worst shows Johns simply doesn't understand black masculinity, it doesn't show anything about the "abhorrent racism" Ray was previously accusing him of.

 

[heatvision38]

What balls.

 

[Kevin_28]

Probably Whedon wanted to do to Cyborg as he wanted to do with Vision

 

[KalvinEllis]

This is also another good example of what a toilet twitter is. The only reason both Nadria and Ray responded to this was because someone tagged them in a thread where the OP was outraged about Johns daring to show his face to give an interview about Superman & Lois. Then someone would even go on to bodyshame him for some reason. These people are an embarrassment.

 

[MbJ]

They were having the DC version of the Mallrats convo.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Eh, a white dude trying to explain blackness to me can catch hands. I've had to have so many frustrating conversations with white leadership ever since I entered the workforce and it's something I simply don't tolerate anymore. Johns, based on these two examples, seems to have a pattern of asserting his knowledge of the black community over actual black people. It's definitely racist.

At any rate, the whole thing makes me wonder if Cyborg will undergo a redesign in ZSJL. I always thought it was interesting that Ray was training so intensely with the cast just to end up completely CG outside of a part of his head. But it would make sense if maybe he gets torn apart and regenerates more human appendages like in Walker's run. And it would explain why Geoff and Ray might've had this disagreement.

 

[KalvinEllis]

 

[Eddie Dean]

The desexulazation of black males in genre fiction is a HUGE thing. There are numerous examples of black characters being castrated, their bodies turn apart, etc done mostly by white creatives. It's something that white liberals like Geoff Johns or Joss Whedon probably wouldn't even think about consciously, but Ray as an up and coming black actor is probably very aware of and looking to avoid.

Just look how the Finn character is treated in the Star Wars sequels. The First Awakens sets him up as a possible romantic partner for a white woman and maybe even a force user, but in Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker he's turned into a fool, mostly separated from Ray and instead partnered with other minorities. He doesn't even get to say that he's force sensitive or that he has feelings for Ray.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I think we need a better understanding of how that discussion actually went about before painting it as a one-sided take of a "white man tries to lecture a black man about black masculinity". This is why we need more details and better context.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I feel like for a certain subset, no matter what comes out, they're going to need more "context" and "details".

 

[Greenlite]

Would love for Johns to come out and tell people his side of the story

See what response Diane Neilson will have after.

Or is he also taking the "stay silent to let it blow over" approach like Whedon?

It's like saying we've only heard 1 side of the story, we need context, when the other guy just avoids talking. Huge credibility gain by staying silent lol

 

[DlAMONDZ]

Ray is responding to the woman who was fired from Superman and Lois's writing team, after she brought up issues of sexism and black representation in the script.

Bu but Johns wrote some good comics books reeeeeee!

 

[KalvinEllis]

I feel like for a certain subset, no matter what comes out, they're going to need more "context" and "details".

Curious to know what you're referring to here. Have I said anything about Whedon after multiple different people went into more specific detail about him? The way you put this in quotation marks implies there's something unreasonable about waiting for more details before calling someone an abhorrent racist. Excuse me for believing it takes more than "this guy tried to lecture me about a black character's junk" to consider someone a coercive, discriminatory, retaliatory racist.

 

[super85]

Has Nadria Tucker ever posted anything about how big of a Superman fan she is, and how much she Loves the comics?

Im just curious if she has. Since it would such a fantastic thing for a fan to get to write 2 Superman related tv-shows.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Iunno, folks here say they’ve never heard of Johns being racist. Say they need details. Two people have given their own accounts. As expected though, that’s not enough.