Justice League Ray Fisher - WB Investigation Updates Thread

[moviefreak]

The desexulazation of black males in genre fiction ...

It's something that white liberals like Geoff Johns or Joss Whedon probably wouldn't even think about consciously, but Ray as an up and coming black actor is probably very aware of and looking to avoid.

This is true. I have a feeling that Whedon & Johns probably lack awareness of racial history in the deception of black men in fiction, specifically in Western world.[/QUOTE]

 

[emielaen]

Is a white person thinking they know more about how black people will perceive something than a black person racist? Idk. I’m black and It comes as dumb as **** to me. Ignorant, but maybe not racist.

The fact that he apparently listened to Fisher and still just ignored or downplayed his much more informed perspective is what’s suspect and quite racist.

 

[B]

Am I the only person who is actually wondering, how & why such a conversation even came up?

 

[Da-Scribe]

Is a white person thinking they know more about how black people will perceive something than a black person racist? Idk. I’m black and It comes as dumb as **** to me. Ignorant, but maybe not racist.

The fact that he apparently listened to Fisher and still just ignored or downplayed his much more informed perspective is what’s suspect and quite racist.

It's deeply offensive to me. It completely minimizes a person's experiences and how they identify themselves. It's like an off-shoot of white saviorism to me. This idea that you know better than the people of that actual racial/ethnic group and are therefore in a better position to support said group.

 

[emielaen]

It's deeply offensive to me. It completely minimizes a person's experiences and how they identify themselves. It's like an off-shoot of white saviorism to me. This idea that you know better than the people of that actual racial/ethnic group and are therefore in a better position to support said group.

Yeah, I feel you.

Am I the only person who is actually wondering, how & why such a conversation even came up?

Hell no. Lol

 

[moviefreak]

I now wondered about Rick Famuyiwa's treatment for the Flash solo movie which IIRC would involved police corruption (?) coupled with some element of racial politics (?). G Johns was at that time the president of DC entertainment & very hand on with the scripting process on many of DC films.

 

[heatvision38]

The desexulazation of black males in genre fiction is a HUGE thing. There are numerous examples of black characters being castrated, their bodies turn apart, etc done mostly by white creatives. It's something that white liberals like Geoff Johns or Joss Whedon probably wouldn't even think about consciously, but Ray as an up and coming black actor is probably very aware of and looking to avoid.

Just look how the Finn character is treated in the Star Wars sequels. The First Awakens sets him up as a possible romantic partner for a white woman and maybe even a force user, but in Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker he's turned into a fool, mostly separated from Ray and instead partnered with other minorities. He doesn't even get to say that he's force sensitive or that he has feelings for Ray.

 

[SupermanFan]

I feel like for a certain subset, no matter what comes out, they're going to need more "context" and "details".

So we should just blindly believe anyone who accuses anyone of something?

 

[heatvision38]

So we should just blindly believe anyone who accuses anyone of something?

No, but we should take it seriously. People who say "believe all women," for example, put themselves in a box. What it should be is "take all women seriously and investigate." Same goes for any other -isms or abuse. There doesn't have to be an immediate bad guy until more info comes out. However, when people start coming forward, at what point to we at least say there may be a real problem here?

 

[KalvinEllis]

So we should just blindly believe anyone who accuses anyone of something?

Nah, but apparently it can be problematic if you happen to disagree. No matter how many times I have given Ray the benefit of the doubt before, the few times I haven't or asked for more elaboration, I become the bad guy. People usually tend to get along well here. There's an overall good sense of camaraderie most times. Then look what happens anytime there's any disagreement about this particular situation, let alone if even remotely happens to involve cultural identity. People start sniping at each other, make generalizations about other people's belief system, sometimes ironically based on what they presume those people look like, or try to pretend to have the moral high ground over those they don't agree with and it just becomes an ugly mess. This has been going on for how many months now since Ray first started tweeting. I've been coming to this site for literally half of my life and sometimes I barely even feel like it because I know what I'm going to see here. It's disheartening.

 

[chintai80]

cultural identity is one of the if not THE most touchy subject.

culture defines who we are, so of course people will have strong and passionate responses.

it is what it is.

 

[SupermanFan]

No, but we should take it seriously. People who say "believe all women," for example, put themselves in a box. What it should be is "take all women seriously and investigate." Same goes for any other -isms or abuse. There doesn't have to be an immediate bad guy until more info comes out. However, when people start coming forward, at what point to we at least say there may be a real problem here?

But for many people taking it seriously is simply believing Fisher and not questioning anything he says. The problem is people don’t look at things objectively, people take a side from the off.

 

[Eddie Dean]

What about when multiple people describe similar actions from those that Ray accused?

 

[Docker2.0]

Iunno, folks here say they’ve never heard of Johns being racist. Say they need details. Two people have given their own accounts. As expected though, that’s not enough.

An entire team can come out and say the same thing happened to them but they would believe that entire team but not Fisher for some reason. John's can be wearing white sheets with a grand wizards hat and some will excuse it as cosplay. No matter what, they find a way to turn a blind eye to it and some how blame Fisher for wanting attention.

 

[KalvinEllis]

 

[Greenlite]

Ya "Believe all women" then when get accused by a woman - "I don't believe you"

I like Ray and give him benefit of the doubt, then when he wasn't presenting anything more concrete I had my doubt and was 50/50 on the situation.

Then you see how much of a d*** Emmerich, Berg & Hamada are ("he just didn't want to Booya," I was the first to call Snyder to support him (when I only want him to release the laptop version), SC's a pipedream, it's not going anywhere, Ray quits Flash etc), then Whedon going through a freefall with the Buffy & Angel team, they also back Ray as well, and now the Johns stuff start to expand.

There are people who just defend/attack celebrities because they have a crush on them or their works, but there are plenty who go through the process of looking at the trend/evidence/behaviour/track records to make up their opinions.

Painting all people of different opinion who offer their insights, as groupies, is not gonna help the conversation or change anything, even post 2020

 

[batdude]

I recall the topic of Cyborg having his genitals blown off during his New 52 origin being the topic of discussion some years back. David Walker, the guy who wrote the later Cyborg solo book, made a comment about undoing that because he found it suspect.

it should be undone. that's just gross.

 

[Docker2.0]

Ya "Believe all women" then when get accused by a woman - "I don't believe you"

I like Ray and give him benefit of the doubt, then when he wasn't presenting anything more concrete I had my doubt and was 50/50 on the situation.

Then you see how much of a d*** Emmerich, Berg & Hamada are ("he just didn't want to Booya," I was the first to call Snyder to support him (when I only want him to release the laptop version), SC's a pipedream, it's not going anywhere, Ray quits Flash etc), then Whedon going through a freefall with the Buffy & Angel team, they also back Ray as well, and now the Johns stuff start to expand.

There are people who just defend/attack celebrities because they have a crush on them or their works, but there are plenty who go through the process of looking at the trend/evidence/behaviour/track records to make up their opinions.

Painting all people of different opinion who offer their insights, as groupies, is not gonna help the conversation or change anything, even post 2020

Don't forget the original excuse: Why is he the ONLY person from Justice League that is complaining and no one is backing him up? That changed quickly once his coworkers backed him up. Now we need more details. I have not heard not ONE PERSON question Carpenter's story at all.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I don't believe the topic of Cyborg's genitals was ever brought up until they put him in the JL. Naturally, it was because he was no longer on the B team, now he was on a team comprised of 6 good looking white folks and one black dude who was missing half of his face and... well, other things. Even in Injustice 2 there's a scene where Poison Ivy mocks him for being angry because he's "missing something below the belt". And since Cyborg was supposed to be their premier black character, his portrayal was the most scrutinized. I imagine Fisher wasn't ignorant about some of those perceptions and he brought it up.

 

[heatvision38]

But for many people taking it seriously is simply believing Fisher and not questioning anything he says. The problem is people don’t look at things objectively, people take a side from the off.

I think some of the defense is coming from people who think that people are automatically dismissing Fisher. It goes both ways. It does seem to me that some are bending into a pretzel to diminish what Fisher is saying or trying to get achieved.

 

[Aurakles]

Trying to imagine how this came up, if not some kind of regeneration, there may have simply been a line in the original script referring to this which Johns wanted to cut.
Or it may be that Johns wrote a joke about it which Fisher thought was in poor taste.

 

[KalvinEllis]

"Transmogrification test"

 

[chintai80]

zack's known to have a very collaborative process with his actors.
i'm sure he asked ray and all the other actors about what their perspective on the specific character they were playing and what he/she might do during this or that.

from what we can infer from some of fisher's statements, whedon and johns seemd to be the opposite of that - it's a just shut up and do what you're told type of approach.

 

[Greenlite]

Don't forget the original excuse: Why is he the ONLY person from Justice League that is complaining and no one is backing him up? That changed quickly once his coworkers backed him up. Now we need more details. I have not heard not ONE PERSON question Carpenter's story at all.

Looks very likely that Ray's the front man/messenger for the others that don't want their career ruined.

There were bits surfacing i.e. stunt woman lying on ground for Ezra speaking out, now this Sup writer, and Frosty the Snowman hoax happened with Momoa

and in most cultures if you refuse to say anything after accusation from employees and it's growing, that's called a silent admission. Would be so much easier if the accused tell their version of the story so people who support them have something to go on, right now it's all speculation on what the accused think lol. At least Ray and Buffy and Angel and Sup writer and so on say s***. Has Hamada even openly "debunked" that conversation with Ray? Stop hiding behind Variety & trades

 

[Greenlite]

zack's known to have a very collaborative process with his actors.
i'm sure he asked ray and all the other actors about what their perspective on the specific character they were playing and what he/she might do during this or that.

from what we can infer from some of fisher's statements, whedon and johns seemd to be the opposite of that - it's a just shut up and do what you're told type of approach.

I wonder what was the atmosphere when the stunt woman was told to lie on her back for Ezra to get into the hump position. It's an exaggeration but that scene where Black Mask forced a girl to strip and dance in the club flashed in my head