Justice League Ray Fisher - WB Investigation Updates Thread

[Schlosser85]

I mean yes? Here's my point. If diversity and inclusion are so important, and we have an existing, established and popular Spider-Man character who is a person of color, and if we are trying to embrace these ideas on cinema now, then yes, make the new Spider-Man, the STARRING ROLE, a person of color who already exists as a person of color in the comics.

Making Peter's supporting cast diverse is not this bold, courageous move. I'm sorry it's not. In today's climate, making a live-action Spider-Man movie where the starring character is Miles Morales would've been the more noteworthy move.

I'm not real interested in diversity quota knock-off Spider-Man. And they especially aren't gonna start with Miles Morales instead of Peter Parker for Spider-Man's introduction in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm not real interested in diversity quota knock-off Spider-Man. And they especially aren't gonna start with Miles Morales instead of Peter Parker for Spider-Man's introduction in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

OK, well I think this is the mindset we need to move away from.

 

[Schlosser85]

Oh I know, don’t worry hahaha. That’s why I did the winking smiley face there. And yeah... IM3 is one of my least favorite Marvel films; not just for that reason but it’s infuriating how much they wasted Rebecca Hall (who is awesome) thanks to Permutter being an awful human being.

The weirdest part is they still leave her in the movie, like this weird vestigial appendage of an amputated earlier draft plotline. She either should have been the main villain like she was originally meant to, or not been in the movie at all.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I'm not real interested in diversity quota knock-off Spider-Man. And they especially aren't gonna start with Miles Morales instead of Peter Parker for Spider-Man's introduction in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

 

[Schlosser85]

OK, well I think this is the mindset we need to move away from.

To me Spider-Man means Peter Parker, like Batman means Bruce Wayne ::. And I always feel it's a bit cheap and pandery to debut a POC or female version of a preexisting superhero. Making original POC superheroes like Black Panther feels like a lot stronger of a statement anyway, IMO.

 

[Deck Rickard]

The weirdest part is they still leave her in the movie, like this weird vestigial appendage of an amputated earlier draft plotline. She either should have been the main villain like she was originally meant to, or not been in the movie at all.

Yeah. They couldn’t even make her a substantial secondary villain because you had Guy Pearce, Ben Kingsley and James Badge Dale sucking up so much screen time.

 

[Schlosser85]

Yeah. They couldn’t even make her a substantial secondary villain because you had Guy Pearce, Ben Kingsley and James Badge Dale sucking up so much screen time.

There was too much random **** going on in that movie.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I'm fine with Miles Morales. Characters like him, Kyle Rayner and Wally West are the right way to do legacy in my opinion. I get the notion that he's still piggybacking on a popular character's mantle since if Miles wasn't called "Spider-Man", but "Kid Arachnid" instead, it wouldn't have the same effect. But it seems to have paid off for Marvel and it's not like they've pushed Peter to the side or something. Peter will always be the face of Marvel, he just has a diverse counterpart now that other folks can enjoy and feel represented by.

 

[spideyfan77]

I never said it was. I just used him for a reaction gif. Then Kalvin said he was a person of color and I confirmed that along with a joke. You being the agent of chaos that you are came in here trying to diminish his BIPOC identity over a dumb movie.



But the cuts didn't help the story at all. And it's not like all Joss did was cut stuff. He added in the infamous Supes cell scene, the Batman scene with the robber, and the Supes/Flash race. None of these scenes added anything to the plot and all of them were focused around white folks.

There's no realm where I will believe there weren't other ways to hit the 2-hour mandate that didn't strip all of the minorites out. Would it have still been bad? Yes, probably. But I don't believe at all that what Joss put out there was the best of the bad options.

That cell phone scene was like 10 secs and same with the flash/superman scene. Batman vs robber is legit. I just dont know how you can add maybe 2 mins of ryan choi, cyborg backstory, or iris west without it feeing completely pointless. You need to see the entire story to understand those characters.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I feel like any time I hear someone talk about BIPOC-legacy characters being knockoffs and how original BIPOC character have a bigger impact...9 outta 10 it's a white person saying this stuff.

 

[The Guard]

I agree but if a studio told you to cut this movie down to below 2 hours.....how are you doing that? It makes sense to cut what he cut to maintain the overall story. I understand what he cut and why he cut it. I dont think it had anything to do with race.

This is what I would like to know. I haven't seen a single reasonable suggestion for a cohesive version of even most of the Snyder Cut that is less than three or three plus hours in length.

Joss didn't exactly cut Victor and his father out of the movie, he compressed and streamlined their story, because the movie isn't CYBORG, it's JUSTICE LEAGUE. He cut down on the slow mo action and story sequences, streamlined their roles and eliminated subplots that did not serve the film's central narrative. He streamlined everyone's roles for that matter, except for Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, who received more development; and it's pretty clear why he did that; though they participated in the story in the original cut, they, as central characters in the Justice League story, had next to no character development in it.

To keep any amount of Cyborg's backstory worth keeping would have resulted in an very unwieldy and weirdly focused film. The Cyborg stuff barely works in a four hour cut. There's no way it would have paced properly in a 2:30 or even three hour one.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah. They couldn’t even make her a substantial secondary villain because you had Guy Pearce, Ben Kingsley and James Badge Dale sucking up so much screen time.

I would've made Madame Masque the full-on main villain and given her a cool costume and the actual mask. The villains in Iron Man 3 suck.

 

[Schlosser85]

I would've made Madame Masque the full-on main villain and given her a cool costume and the actual mask. The villains in Iron Man 3 suck.

Honestly I don't think any Iron Man movie has had great villains.

 

[moviefreak]

IMO Snyder has a healthy, somewhat realistic viewpoint about human nature in fantasy film. He's not the person to sugar coat his works.

Black Panther debuted in 2016 CA:CW. Snyder's JL came out in 2017 with a diverse cast and a black actor as a major lead. Rick Fumiyama would have been working on the Flash solo with likely diverse cast & Cyborg solo was in the work. All these were for aught. Then Black Panther solo came out in 2018, I recalled that Fumiyama commented on the Black Panther solo along the line of "See, I told you so..." to WB. lol

In 2017 Snyder JL would have added apart from the trinity:
Cyborg (Black)
Aquaman (Polynesians)
Flash (Jewish via father)

Along with supporting cast:
Silas & Elinor Stone (Black family)
Atom/Ryan Choi (Chinese)
J'onn J'onzz/Martian Manhunter (Black)
(Probably) Green Lantern/John Steward (Black)

I'll repeat it again: WB executives are clueless about creative diversity in film-making and about POC in general. It's same with most corporations including Disney. It's just that Marvel/Disney just took advantage, after the fact in most cases.

Ray Fisher's just highlighting the structural problem of a big corporate monopolies on how they manage their employee.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I feel like any time I hear someone talk about BIPOC-legacy characters being knockoffs and how original BIPOC character have a bigger impact...9 outta 10 it's a white person saying this stuff.

I think it's important how the character is introduced in general. If people feel like the only reason the new characters were created was in order to replace their favorites whose immutable characteristics they're being told makes them not good enough for a modern audience, rather than using characters who have been around for 40+ years and haven't been given a chance to shine, they could make their voices heard about it. Anything that seems like your favorite is being disrespected or disregarded or is being purposely diminished to artificially elevate someone else, all because they were created at a time when diversity wasn't a priority in entertainment, could make some people react accordingly. Lots of Wally West fans for instance reacted that way towards the New-52 Wally because they felt like DC tried really hard to bury OG Wally and replace him with a "modernized" version. It didn't work since DC did an overall bad job with the new Wally and now OG Wally is back as the main Flash in the comics again. The Hydra Cap thing comes to mind too, fans didn't have a problem with Sam being the new Cap, they just didn't want Steve to be turned into a Nazi at the same time. I don't think most people have a problem with legacy characters as long as the execution is done well and doesn't feel like their favorite is being deliberately sabotaged for the sake of elevating the new guy. Makes any sense?

 

[The Guard]

Black Panther debuted in 2016 CA:CW. Snyder's JL came out in 2017 with a diverse cast and a black actor as a major lead. Rick Fumiyama would have been working on the Flash solo with likely diverse cast & Cyborg solo was in the work. All these were for aught. Then Black Panther solo came out in 2018, I recalled that Fumiyama commented on the Black Panther solo along the line of "See, I told you so..." to WB. lol

We simply don't know that, had Snyder actually released his version of the film, that THE FLASH would have happened regardless of who was attached. Because there's simply no guarantee that Snyder's JL, likely compressed into a theatrical cut a la BVS would have been received as well as this four hour cut has been.

We also don't know that THE FLASH won't have a somewhat diverse cast. Kiersy Clemons is still Iris, is she not? And last time I checked, Ezra Miller is still Barry Allen.

In 2017 Snyder JL would have added apart from the trinity:
Cyborg (Black)
Aquaman (Polynesians)
Flash (Jewish via father)

These characters were added anyway, via Whedon's JL, and AQUAMAN continued the representation, as did WONDER WOMAN 2, continuing from the first one.

Along with supporting cast:
Silas & Elinor Stone (Black family)
Atom/Ryan Choi (Chinese)
J'onn J'onzz/Martian Manhunter (Black).

J'onn is black because of his human side, portrayed by actor Harry Lennix, who was already in two previous DCEU films, and arguably better featured there anyway. They already added this actor, in terms of diversity, prior to JUSTICE LEAGUE.

Silas Stone is still in the theatrical cut of JL. Can a black family not consist of two people?

I'll repeat it again: WB executives are clueless about creative diversity in film-making and about POC in general. It's same with most corporations including Disney. It's just that Marvel/Disney just took advantage, after the fact in most cases.

Are they, though? Gal Gadot, an Israeli actress, featured in BVS. WONDER WOMAN was clearly a movie with an eye toward diversity. (points at the Amazons and her team). Ditto the sequel, featuring Gal and lead villain Pedro Pascal, who is Chilean. WB also presented a diverse cast in SUICIDE SQUAD with a POC lead in Will Smith and arguably again in SHAZAM! and BIRDS OF PREY, to a lesser extent. WB has been developing BLUE BEETLE for several years. They just greenlit SUPERGIRL with a Latin actress. BLACK ADAM looks to be a fairly diverse production as well. Then you've got Ava DuVernay's THE NEW GODS project, which will amost certainly be a diverse outing.

More recently, Matt Reeves' THE BATMAN features two POC leads. We're hearing about a black Superman project as well.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I think it's important how the character is introduced in general. If people feel like the only reason the new characters were created was in order to replace their favorites whose immutable characteristics they're being told makes them not good enough for a modern audience, rather than using characters who have been around for 40+ years and haven't been given a chance to shine, they could make their voices heard about it. Anything that seems like your favorite is being disrespected or disregarded or is being purposely diminished to artificially elevate someone else, all because they were created at a time when diversity wasn't a priority in entertainment, could make some people react accordingly. Lots of Wally West fans for instance reacted that way towards the New-52 Wally because they felt like DC tried really hard to bury OG Wally and replace him with a "modernized" version. It didn't work since DC did an overall bad job with the new Wally and now OG Wally is back as the main Flash in the comics again. The Hydra Cap thing comes to mind too, fans didn't have a problem with Sam being the new Cap, they just didn't want Steve to be turned into a Nazi at the same time. I don't think most people have a problem with legacy characters as long as the execution is done well and doesn't feel like their favorite is being deliberately sabotaged for the sake of elevating the new guy. Makes any sense?

Folks can be upset about whatever they want. I don't really care. My point is that white people are quite often the ones trying to dictate what sort of diversity is the more impactful kind. Frankly, that's not up to them to decide.

 

[KalvinEllis]

Folks can be upset about whatever they want. I don't really care. My point is that white people are quite often the ones trying to dictate what sort of diversity is the more impactful kind. Frankly, that's not up to them to decide.

I agree but when companies do something to change, replace or diminish specifically characters who happen to be white that some fans are invested in, don't they have the right to speak up about it. Not about how diversity should be done in general, but rather about how their favorites are being affected by those diversity changes in particular.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I agree but when companies do something to change, replace or diminish specifically characters who happen to be white that some fans are invested in, don't they have the right to speak up about it. Not about how diversity should be done in general, but rather about how their favorites are being affected by those diversity changes in particular.

I never said otherwise. My point hasn't been about people wanting white characters to stay white. It's about white folks calling a minority-legacy character like Miles a knockoff and trying to explain how inclusion should be properly done. It's why I used that reaction gif. It reminded me of Matt Damon trying to lecture a black woman about diversity.

It's bizarre.

 

[Schlosser85]

No one gets to decide what anyone else does or does not have the right to speak about. Anyone can comment what they wish, and anyone else has the right to not listen.

 

[Predator jp]

the first time i saw someone calling a minority-legacy character a knockoff was a black YouTuber. up until then i have never thought of it that way.

 

[spideyfan77]

I never said otherwise. My point hasn't been about people wanting white characters to stay white. It's about white folks calling a minority-legacy character like Miles a knockoff and trying to explain how inclusion should be properly done. It's why I used that reaction gif. It reminded me of Matt Damon trying to lecture a black woman about diversity.

It's bizarre.

I am more of the mindset where miles is well thought out. Creating a new batman or Spider-Man or superman or new character that is a person of color helps make it feel different and actually mean something.

I think creating miles as a new spiderman is more impactful than just race bending peter parker. You can focus on the race aspect with that new character.

Just my opinion of course

 

[Schlosser85]

For me, race-bending established characters depends on the character. Like, I couldn't care less about Jeffrey Wright as Gordon, and I don't think Wright as Gordon is much of a stretch. Also, whether consciously or subliminally (I'd prefer the latter), him being a black cop could accentuate his "outsider" status on the GPD. But Gordon being black doesn't fundamentally change anything about the character. And Catwoman has been both already, so it doesn't matter. Laurence Fishburne as Perry White (or Jack Crawford on Hannibal) doesn't change anything and doesn't matter.

I feel like Bruce Wayne should be white because he's supposed to be a deliberately stereotypical embodiment of the "1%" who's secretly something no one expects of him, and frankly some of that gets lost if he's anything other than white.

I was kinda "meh" on a black Superman, but then someone here (I don't remember who, alas) made a fairly interesting and persuasive argument about how you could play with the duality between him as a literal alien and how his assimilation is influenced by being (or appearing to be) an African-American, and there's interesting thematic stuff you could delve into there.

 

[Mysteryman]

I would've made Madame Masque the full-on main villain and given her a cool costume and the actual mask. The villains in Iron Man 3 suck.

I would have Loved that!

 

[moviefreak]

We simply don't know that, had Snyder actually released his version of the film, that THE FLASH would have happened regardless of who was attached. Because there's simply no guarantee that Snyder's JL, likely compressed into a theatrical cut a la BVS would have been received as well as this four hour cut has been.

We also don't know that THE FLASH won't have a somewhat diverse cast. Kiersy Clemons is still Iris, is she not? And last time I checked, Ezra Miller is still Barry Allen.

These are all hypothetical scenarios, mainly because Snyder left the project before it could be completed. But he had completed filming except for a few shots like Martha-Martian Manhunter scene with Lois. I'm just saying that in year 2017 the diverse inclusion in Snyder's film would have been more significant than in year 2021.

It was the WB who caused Fumiyama to walk away from the project after Seth Grahame-Smith walked away. Kiersy Clemons was Fumiyama's familiar actress whom he worked with before and likely his casting. Henry Allen was also in the cast then, Snyder used Billy Crudup in some of his films so it's likely him who made the casting suggestion.

I'll maintained that it was WB, specifically Jon Berg & Goeff Johns messed up the Flash project. Fumiyama's Flash would have been based off the same Flash in ZSJL. If you know anything, Famuyiwa's known for 'Dope' (2015) & HBO's 'Confirmation' (2016) - a dramatisation of the Anita Hill testimony, made me think that the dude Geoff John & Jon Berg baulked at the subject matters that Fumiyama wanted to bring in the Flash film. Likely related to issue of police brutality/corruption & race.

Silas Stone is still in the theatrical cut of JL. Can a black family not consist of two people?

A mother, a father & a son may be a family unit in the traditional sense. However, removing the more fleshed Victor, Elinor & Silas Stone relationship for that mess in JL:TC still rankled me.

Are they, though? Gal Gadot, an Israeli actress, featured in BVS. WONDER WOMAN was clearly a movie with an eye toward diversity. (points at the Amazons and her team). Ditto the sequel, featuring Gal and lead villain Pedro Pascal, who is Chilean. WB also presented a diverse cast in SUICIDE SQUAD with a POC lead in Will Smith and arguably again in SHAZAM! and BIRDS OF PREY, to a lesser extent. WB has been developing BLUE BEETLE for several years. They just greenlit SUPERGIRL with a Latin actress. BLACK ADAM looks to be a fairly diverse production as well. Then you've got Ava DuVernay's THE NEW GODS project, which will amost certainly be a diverse outing.

More recently, Matt Reeves' THE BATMAN features two POC leads. We're hearing about a black Superman project as well.

WB did nothing of the sort.

In Gadot's case, it was Snyder who cast her after screen-testing her with Affleck. Pascal like-wise was Jenkins' call. Most casting were done from the director's (& producers') point of view.

These diversity that WB seems to touted were all defensive reactions. All of the projects with DuVernay & Reeves et al., were post-Snyder. Nolan did a bit earlier as well with the likes of Morgan Freeman. I'll maintain that JJ Abrams did not picked Ta-Nehisi Coates. It more likely WB were looking for someone to write some "Black-related" Superman story. Superman will still be a white dude. There'll not be a black Superman, but stranger things have happened.

WB is a corporation in outlook & mentality. They have yet to restructure their workplace environment which remained still stuck in 20thC mindset.