Justice League Ray Fisher - WB Investigation Updates Thread

[The Guard]

These are all hypothetical scenarios, mainly because Snyder left the project before it could be completed. But he had completed filming except for a few shots like Martha-Martian Manhunter scene with Lois. I'm just saying that in year 2017 the diverse inclusion in Snyder's film would have been more significant than in year 2021.

I don't follow. Those characters WERE in the 2017 film. The 2021 version clearly presented a better or at least more complete version of them and their stories, so how does that argument work?

It was the WB who caused Fumiyama to walk away from the project after Seth Grahame-Smith walked away. Kiersy Clemons was Fumiyama's familiar actress whom he worked with before and likely his casting. Henry Allen was also in the cast then, Snyder used Billy Crudup in some of his films so it's likely him who made the casting suggestion.

And if he walked away because of racial or diverse insensitivity, that might make sense. We have no evidence of that.

Who is the director and casting director working for in these scenarios? Who signed off on the casting choices and signed these actors to contracts? How is that not related to WB as a studio making decisions?

I'll maintained that it was WB, specifically Jon Berg & Goeff Johns messed up the Flash project. Fumiyama's Flash would have been based off the same Flash in ZSJL. If you know anything, Famuyiwa's known for 'Dope' (2015) & HBO's 'Confirmation' (2016) - a dramatisation of the Anita Hill testimony, made me think that the dude Geoff John & Jon Berg baulked at the subject matters that Fumiyama wanted to bring in the Flash film. Likely related to issue of police brutality/corruption & race.

Or, given the timing, they balked at the idea that Flash could carry a film himself after the fairly lukewarm response to the movie and the character/actor. Hence quickly reworking it into FLASHPOINT, which is not what Fumiyama had signed on to do.

A mother, a father & a son may be a family unit in the traditional sense. However, removing the more fleshed Victor, Elinor & Silas Stone relationship for that mess in JL:TC still rankled me.

Which is all well and good, but now you're moving the goalposts. You just wrote that WB would have added (black family) had the Snyder version remained intact. You made no comments about the quality of the portrayal.

WB did nothing of the sort.

I don't even know what this is in response to. Surely you're not saying they didn't put out the movies I listed with diverse elements.

In Gadot's case, it was Snyder who cast her after screen-testing her with Affleck. Pascal like-wise was Jenkins' call. Most casting were done from the director's (& producers') point of view.

It doesn't matter who cast them. WB is not a person, it's a company with dozens or hundreds of people involved in a production at a given time. If diverse castings were done under the envelope of a WB movie, and WB had to sign off on it, sign them, promote them, etc, you cannot remove WB's involvement in the process.

No one is removing the individual accomplishments and contributions of directors and casting people, but it's clearly all under the envelope of a WB film production.

These diversity that WB seems to touted were all defensive reactions. All of the projects with DuVernay & Reeves et al., were post-Snyder.

"Defensive reactions"?

I know those few movies were post Snyder. Quite a few of them were during the Snyder era, or had been in development for some time. The portion of your argument I responded to was a fairly straightforward:

'll repeat it again: WB executives are clueless about creative diversity in film-making and about POC in general.

The trajectory of their films does not exactly bear that out.

Nolan did a bit earlier as well with the likes of Morgan Freeman. I'll maintain that JJ Abrams did not picked Ta-Nehisi Coates. It more likely WB were looking for someone to write some "Black-related" Superman story. Superman will still be a white dude. There'll not be a black Superman, but stranger things have happened.

WB is a corporation in outlook & mentality. They have yet to restructure their workplace
environment which remained still stuck in 20thC mindset.

I don't know what this means, either.

 

[heatvision38]

No one gets to decide what anyone else does or does not have the right to speak about. Anyone can comment what they wish, and anyone else has the right to not listen.

Who's saying otherwise?

 

[Calvin Ellis]

As I said in the Superman forum if Ray didn't play Cyborg I would've loved to have seen him as Calvin Ellis or Val-Zod.

 

[heatvision38]

Interesting analysis that some people are making comparing Cyborg in this movie to Superman. There are a lot of parallels.

 

[Docker2.0]

These are all hypothetical scenarios, mainly because Snyder left the project before it could be completed. But he had completed filming except for a few shots like Martha-Martian Manhunter scene with Lois. I'm just saying that in year 2017 the diverse inclusion in Snyder's film would have been more significant than in year 2021.

It was the WB who caused Fumiyama to walk away from the project after Seth Grahame-Smith walked away. Kiersy Clemons was Fumiyama's familiar actress whom he worked with before and likely his casting. Henry Allen was also in the cast then, Snyder used Billy Crudup in some of his films so it's likely him who made the casting suggestion.

I'll maintained that it was WB, specifically Jon Berg & Goeff Johns messed up the Flash project. Fumiyama's Flash would have been based off the same Flash in ZSJL. If you know anything, Famuyiwa's known for 'Dope' (2015) & HBO's 'Confirmation' (2016) - a dramatisation of the Anita Hill testimony, made me think that the dude Geoff John & Jon Berg baulked at the subject matters that Fumiyama wanted to bring in the Flash film. Likely related to issue of police brutality/corruption & race.

A mother, a father & a son may be a family unit in the traditional sense. However, removing the more fleshed Victor, Elinor & Silas Stone relationship for that mess in JL:TC still rankled me.


WB did nothing of the sort.

In Gadot's case, it was Snyder who cast her after screen-testing her with Affleck. Pascal like-wise was Jenkins' call. Most casting were done from the director's (& producers') point of view.

These diversity that WB seems to touted were all defensive reactions. All of the projects with DuVernay & Reeves et al., were post-Snyder. Nolan did a bit earlier as well with the likes of Morgan Freeman. I'll maintain that JJ Abrams did not picked Ta-Nehisi Coates. It more likely WB were looking for someone to write some "Black-related" Superman story. Superman will still be a white dude. There'll not be a black Superman, but stranger things have happened.

WB is a corporation in outlook & mentality. They have yet to restructure their workplace environment which remained still stuck in 20thC mindset.

WB makes the dumbest decisions ever for a corporation! AT&T really need to get involved. ZS's JL was well received and even crashed the HBO Max app and they come the next day and saying they don't support it at all. Who TF does that? Off topic I know but I just can not get behind a JJ Abram's Superman.

 

[SupermanFan]

I didn’t really notice much of anything new in that THR report. It was a bit more detailed on Whedon. With regards to his issues with Johns honestly feels to me it’s how Ray is taking things, like he’s looking for stuff to be upset about. Also the articles mentions about the whitewashing aspects or whitewashing on other project's like Krypton (even though that cast was very diverse) and that just doesn’t fly with me. JL’s removal of POC characters was due to the run time been 2 hours. As for Krypton that show was diverse as hell and I have no time for Nadria Tucker and her bull****.

While I can understand Ray’s disappointment at what was cut of his role it does feel (aside from Whedon who was an absolute prick) that his issues stem more from that with Johns & Berg.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

I didn’t really notice much of anything new in that THR report. It was a bit more detailed on Whedon. With regards to his issues with Johns honestly feels to me it’s how Ray is taking things, like he’s looking for stuff to be upset about. Also the articles mentions about the whitewashing aspects or whitewashing on other project's like Krypton (even though that cast was very diverse) and that just doesn’t fly with me. JL’s removal of POC characters was due to the run time been 2 hours. As for Krypton that show was diverse as hell and I have no time for Nadria Tucker and her bull****.

While I can understand Ray’s disappointment at what was cut of his role it does feel (aside from Whedon who was an absolute prick) that his issues stem more from that with Johns & Berg.

Now you see why I feel the specific claims against Johns is BS. It all feels like cherry-picking without looking at the context of things just to make him look bad. Unless he called someone the n-word or something like that, I have a hard time believing he's a racist. Dude's been mostly known to be one of the better people in the comics industry and to fans, so if he had a problem with black people we'd know by now. Bash Whedon all you want for his sexist behavior, Ray, sure, but leave Johns alone.

 

[SupermanFan]

Now you see why I feel the specific claims against Johns is BS. It all feels like cherry-picking without looking at the context of things just to make him look bad. Unless he called someone the n-word or something like that, I have a hard time believing he's a racist. Dude's been mostly known to be one of the better people in the comics industry and to fans, so if he had a problem with black people we'd know by now. Bash Whedon all you want for his sexist behavior, Ray, sure, but leave Johns alone.

That’s how I feel about it too

 

[MOVIELORD101]

That’s how I feel about it too

This is why I'm not using that "I Stand With Ray Fisher" hashtag. I believe the claims against Whedon 100%, but the claims against Geoff Johns are complete bull**** and kinda vindictive just because scenes were cut. How important was Iris West to the theatrical cut, anyway, aside from setting up her being in the Flash's movie soon? There WAS no racial reason for anything like that being cut, PLAIN AND SIMPLE, and Ray and the people blindly using that hashtag need to understand this.

 

[obredaan]

This is why I'm not using that "I Stand With Ray Fisher" hashtag. I believe the claims against Whedon 100%, but the claims against Geoff Johns are complete bull**** and kinda vindictive just because scenes were cut. How important was Iris West to the theatrical cut, anyway, aside from setting up her being in the Flash's movie soon? There WAS no racial reason for anything like that being cut, PLAIN AND SIMPLE, and Ray and the people blindly using that hashtag need to understand this.

It became obvious his claims of racism felt a bit off once he shifted his accusations of racism against Whedon over to Johns.

 

[metaphysician]

Oh I know, don’t worry hahaha. That’s why I did the winking smiley face there. And yeah... IM3 is one of my least favorite Marvel films; not just for that reason but it’s infuriating how much they wasted Rebecca Hall (who is awesome) thanks to Permutter being an awful human being.

I mean, I liked Pierce as Killian fine as a villain, but Maya Hansen being the real villain would have made *much* more narrative sense, especially with the "I took your disregard as a useful lesson" angle. And now that I know about the original script, I can't unsee the original outline in the finished movie.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

It became obvious his claims of racism felt a bit off once he shifted his accusations of racism against Whedon over to Johns.

Yeah. And yet people still blindly believe him and use that stupid hashtag. How I can "stand" with someone when I only believe HALF of what they're saying?

 

[Mani-Man]

While a few people came out "hinting" at Johns being a dirtbag, its all a bit "murky" when it comes to Johns.
The Whedon stuff i believe for sure, i can see the guy pull some of the stuff absolutly.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

"This is one of the most expensive movies Warners has ever made," Berg said, according to Fisher. "What if the CEO of AT&T has a son or daughter, and that son or daughter wants Cyborg to say 'booyah' in the movie and we don't have a take of that? I could lose my job." Fisher responded that he knew if he filmed the line, it would end up in the movie. And he expressed skepticism that the film's fate rested on Cyborg saying "booyah."

But he shot the take. As he arrived on set, he says, Whedon stretched out his arms and said a line from Hamlet in a mocking tone: "Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to you." Fisher replied, "Joss — don't. I'm not in the mood." As he left the set after saying just that one phrase for the cameras, he says, Whedon called out, "Nice work, Ray."

Lol. Behind the scenes stuff is always more compelling than these movies, its amazing. Whedon sounds about as insufferable as we've been told.

 

[Micromind]

 

[MOVIELORD101]

I mean, I liked Pierce as Killian fine as a villain, but Maya Hansen being the real villain would have made *much* more narrative sense, especially with the "I took your disregard as a useful lesson" angle. And now that I know about the original script, I can't unsee the original outline in the finished movie.

Where can i find that script?

 

[emc5466]

That piece should end the careers of Geoff Johns and Walter Hamada.

 

[Schlosser85]

lol.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

this is my favorite part of the piece, made me laugh:

Johns' rep denies that he ever dismissed any comments, adding that Fisher knew Johns — whose spokesperson requested that he be identified as Lebanese American — "had evolved traditionally all-white DC properties like Shazam, Justice Society of America and others into diverse groups of heroes" in his extensive work as a comic book author.

As if thats gonna drastically change the perception of the story. I doubt Geoff Johns has ever struggled due to his background as much as Ray Fisher or any other actor of color has. Just a dumb thing to have your spokesperson point out.

 

[Docker2.0]

I didn’t really notice much of anything new in that THR report. It was a bit more detailed on Whedon. With regards to his issues with Johns honestly feels to me it’s how Ray is taking things, like he’s looking for stuff to be upset about. Also the articles mentions about the whitewashing aspects or whitewashing on other project's like Krypton (even though that cast was very diverse) and that just doesn’t fly with me. JL’s removal of POC characters was due to the run time been 2 hours. As for Krypton that show was diverse as hell and I have no time for Nadria Tucker and her bull****.

While I can understand Ray’s disappointment at what was cut of his role it does feel (aside from Whedon who was an absolute prick) that his issues stem more from that with Johns & Berg.

I don't know, maybe I just naturally see Fisher's point of view being a minority and his concerns but I can see what he is talking about. I don't get how he gets all the hate when he had a NDA in place while Gal Gadot and the entire cast of Buffy made similiar claims about him. His claims are very similar to theirs but for some reason he was easily dismissed from the jump despite having that NDA in place.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I didn’t really notice much of anything new in that THR report. It was a bit more detailed on Whedon. With regards to his issues with Johns honestly feels to me it’s how Ray is taking things, like he’s looking for stuff to be upset about. Also the articles mentions about the whitewashing aspects or whitewashing on other project's like Krypton (even though that cast was very diverse) and that just doesn’t fly with me. JL’s removal of POC characters was due to the run time been 2 hours. As for Krypton that show was diverse as hell and I have no time for Nadria Tucker and her bull****.

While I can understand Ray’s disappointment at what was cut of his role it does feel (aside from Whedon who was an absolute prick) that his issues stem more from that with Johns & Berg.

Throughout all of this I've believed that Whedon and co. Were d-bags but some things are blown out of proportion.

Boo-yah comment...its such a nothing to me. there was nothing weird about it.

Krypton not making El's diverse? Not a big thing to me but i do see Nadrias concerns w/Sm&L and think she was correct w/them making bigger black characters into the bad guys.

But WB and Hollywood in general need to ensure that cast and crew are treated decently.

 

[Daltonio]

The rebuttals from Geoff's people in that article were horrible, lol. Every single one was just, "No. Also one time he wrote a comic books with a black guy. He made diverse comics." Apart from the part Chip Chipperson mentioned, my other favorite part was the executive who was worried about a completely hypothetical situation where an AT&T CEO's kids might be so upset about Cyborg not saying 'Booyah!' that he would be fired.

Not surprised to hear WB didn't want this article written.

 

[obredaan]

I don't know, maybe I just naturally see Fisher's point of view being a minority and his concerns but I can see what he is talking about. I don't get how he gets all the hate when he had a NDA in place while Gal Gadot and the entire cast of Buffy made similiar claims about him. His claims are very similar to theirs but for some reason he was easily dismissed from the jump despite having that NDA in place.

His NDA expired now. Nothing is holding him back from giving actual detailed accounts.

 

[emc5466]

this is my favorite part of the piece, made me laugh:



As if thats gonna drastically change the perception of the story. I doubt Geoff Johns has ever struggled due to his background as much as Ray Fisher or any other actor of color has. Just a dumb thing to have your spokesperson point out.

That was equally hilarious and pathetic.

 

[Primal Slayer]

That piece should end the careers of Geoff Johns and Walter Hamada.

There was nothing in there about them that is career ending. Cringe? Yes. Career ending? Far from it.