Red Dead Redemption

[Soapy]

I hate regenerate health. It's cheap. When you don't have it, and you have a long mission and there is no health around, it becomes a challenge.

No, that's just bad game design.

 

[Solidus]

No, that's just bad game design.

No it's not.

Still to this day games like the original RE and Half-Life show that you must use your head and be careful with what little ammo/health.

Today's game designers make it too easy and make it for everyone. Definatley there are bad instances of people not putting health packs in the right areas. But those that do get it right you get a stimulating game that makes you conserve ammo and health, and not just run and gun like most games today.

 

[BlackLantern]

oh god forbid a game gets made that attracts new people into gaming

I think regenerative health works for some games, not for all

I dont think every game should have you scouring for health packs and ammo ALL THE TIME

 

[Solidus]

oh god forbid a game gets made that attracts new people into gaming

I think regenerative health works for some games, not for all

I dont think every game should have you scouring for health packs and ammo ALL THE TIME

Yea people can get into gaming with out dumbing it down. I got into it around 1988. And there was gaming prior to it. And many other generations joined after it.

As well gaming got bigger and bigger the past few generations. It's only this one that they have started to simplify it too much. If you try to expand your target audience too much then you risk alienating your original and strongest market. Which in some ways it seems to happen.

I agree that in the NES generation games were almost too difficult. But by the time of the PSone that generation I think hit a balance of being challenging and fun and not stupidly hard. Yet they have started to get easier now. Where it's just too easy.

People have been growing in the game sector for many generations. If they have to change gaming completely to get new gamers, then they will alienate the core audience. You can't please everyone and get everyone into a medium or niche.

I think that yes there should be games made for the general audience that are easy to pick up. But I think that is becoming saturated. And the millions and millions that have played for the past 20 years are kinda being left out in the thought process.

I don't want games to be so hard its not fun, ala the old generations. But now they are just too easy. Some of course still keep challenge and I'm not saying all games. But it is becoming a huge trend for games to become too simplified. It's like watering down soup, sooner or later you will just water it down so bad that no one will want it.

EDIT: I agree with what else you have said. Sometimes the regen health can work, but rarely. And I agree not every game should have you scouring for health. But guess what! Almost no action games do that anymore! It's like 99% regen health and 1% get health.

I am all for balance get some for the general audience and some for the hardcore. But to me the saturation is just going purely for the new audience. And honestly the older generation gamers are still in plenty. It's not like its all of this "new gamers".

 

[Two-Face]

Finally bought it on PS3, pretty good game, I'm still at the begining.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

No it's not.

Still to this day games like the original RE and Half-Life show that you must use your head and be careful with what little ammo/health.

Today's game designers make it too easy and make it for everyone. Definatley there are bad instances of people not putting health packs in the right areas. But those that do get it right you get a stimulating game that makes you conserve ammo and health, and not just run and gun like most games today.

Iv always felt health packs were annoying and am thrilled to see them going the way of the dodo bird. I think it's an archaic design. There are other ways for dev's to make a game challenging then by having you search for health kits. I don't play games because i want them to be difficult, i play them to have fun and constantly searching for health packs is super annoying, that was one thing i HATED about GTA IV and was thrilled to hear that RDR would axe the health pack system. If i never see another health pack in a game again it'd be too soon.

 

[Solidus]

Iv always felt health packs were annoying and am thrilled to see them going the way of the dodo bird. I think it's an archaic design. There are other ways for dev's to make a game challenging then by having you search for health kits. I don't play games because i want them to be difficult, i play them to have fun and constantly searching for health packs is super annoying, that was one thing i HATED about GTA IV and was thrilled to hear that RDR would axe the health pack system. If i never see another health pack in a game again it'd be too soon.

How the hell is it archaic design? It made you be more conservative. If anything regen to me is a much lazier way for the developers to create a game.

But to eaches own. I play games for fun, but I don't have fun if its mindless and simple. I need challenge to feel accomplishment. I personally have the most fun when I'm almost dead and the odds are against me, and my heart is pumping.

 

[Soapy]

It made you be more conservative.

Oh, boy. That sounds like a ton of fun.

I don't have fun if its mindless and simple.

Haha. Yes, definitely. Health packs add sooo much depth and complexity to a game.

 

[Solidus]

Oh, boy. That sounds like a ton of fun.



Haha. Yes, definitely. Health packs add sooo much depth and complexity to a game.

Yea they can. Games like RE are perfect examples of not having infinite bullets and health around you. With regen health you technically do have infinity health. When you have to use your head and figure out what you should use or not use it does add complexity and depth. That's why games like RE1 are much harder then games like Gears of War. The Original Half-Life had this as well. Now with regen all you need is to get out of fire for a few seconds (which is way too easy) and boom you're better.

Now I'm not saying this can always be the case. I'm sure they could work harder to make regen a tad more of a challenge. But so far it has not seemed to be the case with bigger games.

Not having unlimited life allows for more strategy and not giving everything to you so all you have to do is point and shoot. And after a while it gets boring and receptive.

There very well may be more reasons to the simplification of games then health packs, I will not deny this. But to me this seems to be one of the biggest changes especially in action/FPS games today. And to me change does not always equate greatness.

 

[Orb]

I agree with Solidus on this one.

 

[Solidus]

I agree with Solidus on this one.

LOL thanks.

Yea it's not that I'm saying they can't have games like this. But too many of them are like this. And a lot of the regen games to me just seem to lack the challenge of FPS and Action games of old.

I think there just needs to be a balance.

 

[.Rorschach.]

ONE OF THE BEST ENDINGS EVERRevenge has never tasted sweeter

 

[Soapy]

When you have to use your head and figure out what you should use or not use it does add complexity and depth.

Dude, come on. How much brain power could it possibly take to see that you need to heal yourself? Having to backtrack and search for some health is neither deep nor complex. It's a hassle.

That's why games like RE1 are much harder then games like Gears of War.

hard =/= challenging

harder =/= better

Not having unlimited life allows for more strategy

What strategy? "Oh, I'm almost dead I guess I better find a health pack." That's not strategy. That's common sense, instinct even.

And it isn't unlimited. You can still die.

In the end it's all the same. One way you have to back up 100 feet to find a health pack, the other way you have to back up 10 feet and find some cover.

I don't even know why I'm arguing. Resident Evil is better than Gears of War and Half-Life is better than Halo. And yes, health regeneration is too common and often used as a crutch by developers who don't know how to pace their action. I don't disagree with you, but don't pretend like health packs are a ****ing hallmark of intelligent game design.

 

[Poeman]

im halfway done...im taking my sweet ass time

 

[Solidus]

Dude, come on. How much brain power could it possibly take to see that you need to heal yourself? Having to backtrack and search for some health is neither deep nor complex. It's a hassle.



hard =/= challenging

harder =/= better



What strategy? "Oh, I'm almost dead I guess I better find a health pack." That's not strategy. That's common sense, instinct even.

And it isn't unlimited. You can still die.

In the end it's all the same. One way you have to back up 100 feet to find a health pack, the other way you have to back up 10 feet and find some cover.

I don't even know why I'm arguing. Resident Evil is better than Gears of War and Half-Life is better than Halo. And yes, health regeneration is too common and often used as a crutch by developers who don't know how to pace their action. I don't disagree with you, but don't pretend like health packs are a ****ing hallmark of intelligent game design.

First chill out man. I'm not attacking you or anything. I'm kinda not caring for the cussing towards me, and the hostility+sarcasm. I am giving a legitimate thought, and idea. Let's just keep it civil.

Second,

How much brain power could it possibly take to see that you need to heal yourself? Having to backtrack and search for some health is neither deep nor complex. It's a hassle.

The brainpower is never in the idea of: "Oh no! I'm low on health what ever shall I do?" And its not always just about the backtracking. What the brainpower is is thinking on how to "ration" the limited resources given to you. I don't care if they put the health in big glowing bulbs in the middle of the map or easily accessible. The idea I'm saying that made it more challenging is the idea that you can't have an unlimited amount of running behind a rock.

Regen health gives you an unlimited amount of health if you have a rock to hide behind. Which now in most games you do. To me if you have three health packs, that means you have to ration them. Heck I don't care if they give them to you in an inventory ala RPG style. The idea is that you have to ration what you do and not just simply worry about shooting bad guys.

But when you give anyone in the world limited resources they have to figure out how to use them. And the more limited things are of everything it does add a challenge. Now I do agree challenge does not always equal good. Of course not. But just with anything they have to be designed better.

I would like them to figure out how to make regen games more difficult. But so far it seems even the best of them can't figure it out yet. So there in lies the problem. To me a part of it is this. I have many other theories to it as well. But I won't get into it because I simply said I thought RDR was way too easy, compared to GTA IV. I still liked RDR I just had a preference and some agreed with me.

Now in the end its about rationing, just like anything with days of old. RPG's still do it. And I like that. Though some have changed that, which I was upset that ME2 changed it but what ever.

I'm not saying death to these things, but I think some companies should think about it more, I like balance, and I want some games where rationing is part of the game. It does make it more challenging to me. Sorry if you don't see it that way. I agree sometimes it was irritating to go back and find health kits. But the idea is not the backtracking or seeing that your health is low. It's about rationing limited resources. And it makes it more fun to me. Most RPG's still do this. And most of those genre lovers don't complain about it.

It use to be in action games and I want to see more of it again. If you don't fine. But to me action with regen is much easier because you have unlimited resources. You can run behind a rock and get infinity (invisible health packs). I just want limited again. That is what I want.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ehhh i don't really like health packs. Not for games that are set in a realistic setting like this.

If they do it as though you have to get something to eat or go to a doctor or something? Sure.

But actual health packs? It reminds me of old school platform games.

 

[Solidus]

Ehhh i don't really like health packs. Not for games that are set in a realistic setting like this.

If they do it as though you have to get something to eat or go to a doctor or something? Sure.

But actual health packs? It reminds me of old school platform games.

But that's the problem. Most games don't have you go to the doctor. Games like MW or RDR even, you apparently have magic regenerate properties. So I would say that is a million times more unrealistic then health packs that have needles and band-aids at least in them lol.

Yea both are unrealistic. I could I care less about realism with it. But. A med pack with medical supplies is more realistic then Wolverine powers.

 

[Havok83]

One of the best trends to come out of gaming in the last decade is the removal of health packs. I think Halo was one of the first games to help make that standard. It doesnt make the game any easier, but it removes an unnecesary component that can make things frustrating at times

 

[Solidus]

Well I disagree with that.

I think regen could work well. But I don't think they have hit that mark.. I have ideas, but I can discuss them later.

 

[Gilpesh]

Solidus... you're posting in the thread for Red Dead Redemption. And you're still saying that games with no health packs aren't difficult because you get 'unlimited' health?

Are you serious?

 

[Solidus]

Solidus... you're posting in the thread for Red Dead Redemption. And you're still saying that games with no health packs aren't difficult because you get 'unlimited' health?

Are you serious?

No I started out giving my review of the game. I said the problem to me with RDR after finishing it was the fact that GTA had limited health, and RDR did not, and to me that was a factor of a challenge. In RDR it was actually a very small part to the lack of challenge and I explained others. And some started to disagree with me and so I started in this argument.

There are many reasons why games with unlimited health are less challenging. I'm not trying to say that is the only reason. I have made many reasons before, and I continue to do so. But this is definatley to me one of the problems.

I think they could for sure make regen games more challenging, but the way they keep doing it is almost a standard that I think is not working. This does have to do to a point with a difference between GTA and RDR. So I don't really see the problem. I'm just enjoying a debate with other gamers. I don't see the harm.

 

[Gilpesh]

Wow. You really picked the wrong game to attempt to make a point with. The combat in this game is plenty challenging and on top of it... it doesn't treat you to fake (and annoyingly cheap, annoying, and annoying) added challenges of keeping track of health packs.

 

[Solidus]

Sorry you don't like it.

The game was not challenging to me at all. If it was to you. Great. But there must be a difference between us. I thought the combat was not that challenging. And I'm not "faking" anything. I'm telling the truth to what I felt after playing the game.

And I'm not the only one to make these claims. Even IGN made this claim that the game seemed to easy.

But if you don't like health packs fine. I gave a legitimate reason to as why I liked them. And if they are going to take them out I think they need to figure out a way to balance it more.

Maybe add more damage that can be acquired when you get shot. Yet the regen process is much slower like it is in MMO's such as WoW for mana. Where it takes longer to regen not just a few seconds. More life, and longer to regen. I'm throwing out ideas. But I always liked the idea of rationing things. If others don't. That's fine.

 

[Soapy]

First chill out man. I'm not attacking you or anything. I'm kinda not caring for the cussing towards me, and the hostility+sarcasm. I am giving a legitimate thought, and idea. Let's just keep it civil.

Well, if you're actually offended by sarcasm and use of the word "****ing", then I guess I apologize. I meant no such harm.

I had a big multi-paragraph response to the rest of your post, but I deleted it because I can phrase it much more succinctly: I at least partially agree with what you're saying, but you're giving health packs way too much credit as to how much depth/complexity/strategy/whatever they add to a game.

 

[Solidus]

Well, if you're actually offended by sarcasm and use of the word "****ing", then I guess I apologize. I meant no such harm.

I had a big multi-paragraph response to the rest of your post, but I deleted it because I can phrase it much more succinctly: I at least partially agree with what you're saying, but you're giving health packs way too much credit as to how much depth/complexity/strategy/whatever they add to a game.

Glad we are on the same page dude. And no harm done, I've always liked your posts.

What I will say though, is that I'm sorry if I made it seem like the biggest deal with health packs. It was just that that was the area I focused on. I'm not trying to say that was all of the challenge.

With RDR again that was a small part the challenge lacked to me compared to GTA IV because of the openness of the environment with not many obstacles in the way.

But again sorry if you thought I think that is all that is doing it. It is a small part of a bigger picture for sure.

And if you ever want to play games online I would love to do so.