Reed and Sue don't get married

[pr0xyt0xin]

Would anyone like if our happy couple was happy to remain committed in a de facto manner? In other words, doesn't it make sense for the scientific-minded, (and very likely) secular couple to stay unmarried. I think in a post-modern take on the F4, released in 2015 its about time we do away with the "all roads lead to marriage" mindset. Personally, I would be thrilled if the two of them were happily involved throughout the entire trilogy/series without tying the knot.

F4 #1: Reed and Sue smitten and dating. Early days of their romantic relationship.
F4 #2: Reed gets Sue preggers and have a planned child "out of wedlock "
F4 #3: Franklin grows up and has two loving and responsible unmarried parents.

I understand the couple is one of the most "traditional American family" out of all the Marvel Universe, but I think that a family can be happy without the religious, cliche and erroneous formality of marriage.

 

[Kelly]

Why change that from the comics???? I don't see any reason to....

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Well its not a surprise if most don't see this the way I do. To understand you'd probably have to see marriage as the cliche that I do. I thought the wedding sequence was not only the worst part of Rise of the Silver Surfer, but probably the worst part of any superhero flick to date.

Why on earth would these two scientists with these phenomenal powers waste their time with wedding preparations? This change, in my mind, would be akin to changing the entire Donald Blake nonsense from Thor's origin, or making Bucky an adult rather than a child in CA:TFA. I'd be willing to bet Tony and Pepper don't ever have a silly wedding sequence where Tony has to suit up to save the guests.

I think marriage is old-fashioned, and beyond that, it is definitely not what I go to a superhero film to see. At the very least, I humbly request that they do it off-screen so I never have to see it again.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

1. Should they be married at some point in the series?

Absolutely. It's who they are. And I'm sorry if you don't like it, but your distaste for marriage is absolutely no reason to change it. I think brunettes are more attractive than blondes. Should they make Sue a brunette because of that? Of course not.

2. Should they show the ceremony on-screen?

Probably not. It makes a cute comic issue but would likely be a distraction unless it's well integrated into a more interesting story.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I just think it would be a great way to modernize the film. In the same way Marvel comics have always dealt with risque issues such as civil rights, with racial prejudice and gay superheroes. I guess I'm alone in this one. /shrugs.

 

[Kelly]

Well its not a surprise if most don't see this the way I do. To understand you'd probably have to see marriage as the cliche that I do. I thought the wedding sequence was not only the worst part of Rise of the Silver Surfer, but probably the worst part of any superhero flick to date.

Why on earth would these two scientists with these phenomenal powers waste their time with wedding preparations? This change, in my mind, would be akin to changing the entire Donald Blake nonsense from Thor's origin, or making Bucky an adult rather than a child in CA:TFA. I'd be willing to bet Tony and Pepper don't ever have a silly wedding sequence where Tony has to suit up to save the guests.

I think marriage is old-fashioned, and beyond that, it is definitely not what I go to a superhero film to see. At the very least, I humbly request that they do it off-screen so I never have to see it again.

Well, considering I lived with a man for 7 years, I guess I see neither as a cliche. And I know some think that "not marrying" is the cool thing to do and mimic many in Hollywood....but to change that part of a comic book for the sake of change?????? seems cliche to me.

As far as FF: ROTSS, I didn't think the first wedding scene was bad at all....I thought some of the lines were "cringe worthy" but the moment between Sue and Johnny, the moment where you see Sue crushed at what just happened...was done very well. NOW, THE SECOND WEDDING SCENE AT THE END. THAT.........was horrible.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

"for the sake of change..." not sure that was my point. Also, mimicking Hollywood wasn't my intention. Wasn't even aware that was a thing.

For the sake of modernization, secularism, and avoiding the trite wedding scene. Those are my reasons.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

"as of December 2011, just 51% of all American adults were married ... down from 72% ... in 1960." http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21569433-americas-marriage-rate-falling-and-its-out-wedlock-birth-rate-soaring-fraying

I think that says a lot about American society and how its changed in the last 50 years and I think Reed and Sue sticking together without legal obligations would say a lot about their relationship. Marriage rates are only going to continue to drop and to keep the film from becoming dated in this matter, I feel pretty strongly that they should do without.

 

[Silvermoth]

I don't mind if they get married or not. I thought they got married way too quickly in the last films and it was just too smug married couple but I also get that when Reed and Sue got married it was a major moment for them, for Marvel and for comics.

So whatever floats your boat. Such a shame marriage is avaliable only for the select few in most countries though but oh well, I won't miss it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I just think it would be a great way to modernize the film. In the same way Marvel comics have always dealt with risque issues such as civil rights, with racial prejudice and gay superheroes. I guess I'm alone in this one. /shrugs.

I think with something like civil rights, we would all agree that we have 'grown' as a society and we now recognize flaws in past societies.

But I don't believe we have learned that he idea of two people deciding that they'd like to commit to one another and share their lives and raise a family is a flawed concept of the past.

Some people choose to get married, some don't. I think that says something about the personalities of the individuals involved (and that's why I don't want to change it - to change it would be to change the nature of the classic characters).

Forty years ago there were couples choosing to not get married and in 2013, large numbers of people are choosing to get married. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I would be willing to bet that marriages might be occuring a little later in life than they did 40 years ago. Other than that, I'd be surprisedd to see any major shifts in marriages.

For those reasons, I would question the basic premise that not getting married is any more 'modern' than getting married.

But I respect your opinion and I think it's fun to discuss such things to kill time while we wait for things to actually happen.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

As an old man, I think one thing I've learned over the years is that, except for superficial things like fashions, things don't change as much from generation to generation as many people would imagine.

28 years ago, I was 20 years old, and I now have a 20 year old son.

When I look at him and his friends, I see these basic differences:

1. He and his friends are more polite and considerate of others than my generation was.

2. He and his friends drink less and do fewer drugs than my generation did.

3. He and his friends are constantly plugged into some sort of electronic device and communicate online as much as they do in person.

Other than that, I don't think things have changed very much.

 

[Kelly]

"as of December 2011, just 51% of all American adults were married ... down from 72% ... in 1960." http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21569433-americas-marriage-rate-falling-and-its-out-wedlock-birth-rate-soaring-fraying

I think that says a lot about American society and how its changed in the last 50 years and I think Reed and Sue sticking together without legal obligations would say a lot about their relationship. Marriage rates are only going to continue to drop and to keep the film from becoming dated in this matter, I feel pretty strongly that they should do without.

I think what we are seeing is not necessarily a change in how people view marriage, but simply

* more women in the workplace...therefore getting married later in life.
* more women in college (as of now, more women are in college than men)...therefore getting married later in life.
* more men and women simply choosing to be single....not necessarily living together...

so yes, things are changing...but I'm not sure that people's view of "marriage" is changing.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

As an old man, I think one thing I've learned over the years is that, except for superficial things like fashions, things don't change as much from generation to generation as many people would imagine.

28 years ago, I was 20 years old, and I now have a 20 year old son.

When I look at him and his friends, I see these basic differences:

1. He and his friends are more polite and considerate of others than my generation was.

2. He and his friends drink less and do fewer drugs than my generation did.

3. He and his friends are constantly plugged into some sort of electronic device and communicate online as much as they do in person.

Other than that, I don't think things have changed very much.

Well take it from someone a year apart from your son, I'd consider all of that to be the same in my case. Also, I assume you got married fairly young (to have a son that age) and my question to you is, do you know your son's opinion on marriage?

I think what we are seeing is not necessarily a change in how people view marriage, but simply

* more women in the workplace...therefore getting married later in life.
* more women in college (as of now, more women are in college than men)...therefore getting married later in life.
* more men and women simply choosing to be single....not necessarily living together...

so yes, things are changing...but I'm not sure that people's view of "marriage" is changing.

Now I don't claim to know your age Kelly, but it would seem both you and Willie are from different generations than myself. So it seems natural to me that both of you would respect the institution of marriage more than I would. But perhaps it doesn't seem natural to you.

The "getting married later in life" point doesn't actually hold because of how life expectancy has grown. If we assume opinions about marriage haven't changed in the last 50 years, then those over the age of 40, 50 and 60 will have stayed married while the younger folks wait until they have reached the quarter-way or even third-way through their life (which in 1960 was 15-25), today its roughly 5-10 years later).

and saying "more men and women simply choosing to be single" kind of only embellishes my point that couples are (at least slightly) more rare than in the past. Thus, still proving that Reed and Sue staying together through all the adversity that they face, without the obligation of bureaucratic law and societal guilt... I still believe that says something.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I think with something like civil rights, we would all agree that we have 'grown' as a society and we now recognize flaws in past societies.

But I don't believe we have learned that he idea of two people deciding that they'd like to commit to one another and share their lives and raise a family is a flawed concept of the past.

Some people choose to get married, some don't. I think that says something about the personalities of the individuals involved (and that's why I don't want to change it - to change it would be to change the nature of the classic characters).

Forty years ago there were couples choosing to not get married and in 2013, large numbers of people are choosing to get married. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I would be willing to bet that marriages might be occuring a little later in life than they did 40 years ago. Other than that, I'd be surprisedd to see any major shifts in marriages.

For those reasons, I would question the basic premise that not getting married is any more 'modern' than getting married.

But I respect your opinion and I think it's fun to discuss such things to kill time while we wait for things to actually happen.

Otherwise, I too appreciate your discussion. And...

I don't mind if they get married or not. I thought they got married way too quickly in the last films and it was just too smug married couple but I also get that when Reed and Sue got married it was a major moment for them, for Marvel and for comics.

So whatever floats your boat. Such a shame marriage is avaliable only for the select few in most countries though but oh well, I won't miss it.

Silver I wish the legality was different as well. Only further demonizes marriage in my own mind. But I'm the type that says, "Oh, you won't let me do this? I DIDNT WANT TO ANYWAY!"

If I could grant you my legal right to get married to my preferred sex, you better believe I would. :hand shake:

 

[Kelly]

Well take it from someone a year apart from your son, I'd consider all of that to be the same in my case. Also, I assume you got married fairly young (to have a son that age) and my question to you is, do you know your son's opinion on marriage?



Now I don't claim to know your age Kelly, but it would seem both you and Willie are from different generations than myself. So it seems natural to me that both of you would respect the institution of marriage more than I would. But perhaps it doesn't seem natural to you.

The "getting married later in life" point doesn't actually hold because of how life expectancy has grown. If we assume opinions about marriage haven't changed in the last 50 years, then those over the age of 40, 50 and 60 will have stayed married while the younger folks wait until they have reached the quarter-way point of their life (which in 1960 was 15-20, today its roughly 5-10 years later).

and saying "more men and women simply choosing to be single" kind of only embellishes my point that couples are (at least slightly) more rare than in the past. Thus, still proving that Reed and Sue staying together through all the adversity that they face, without the obligation of bureaucratic law and societal guilt... I still believe that says something.

I guess you missed the part where I lived with someone for 7 years...INSTEAD OF getting married....but ok.

A "choice" you make, does not necessarily mean you dislike, despise, or disagree with the other choice. It is simply a choice....so when I say more are simply choosing to be single, either longer or stay single for life, doesn't mean they despise, dislike, or disagree with marriage.

Right now for many it is actually cheaper to be single, living together than to be married....and that is their choice, has nothing to do with whether or not people agree, disagree or don't like the whole marriage thing.
We "chose" to live together, most of my friends are married....I don't dislike or disagree with their "choice"....

In the comics, (which is really what this should be about on this forum, a discussion on "to be married, or not to be married" really belongs in Community....) in the comics, Reed and Sue "chose" to be married, and as the comics have evolved....so did Sue's role, all the way up to leading the 4 for a time, all the way to taking on issues such as divorce, spousal abuse, etc.....to bring the 4 into the 21st Century.

I simply do not think you need to change something as fundamental as "their marriage". IMO, they actually should be married in the first movie, and only do "flashbacks" for the origin portion.

But, if it makes ya feel better.....in the France script back in 2003-2004....they were "together" before getting married....as in, one of the scenes is them in the hotel room after a night together. Nothing of the "night together" was shown....but it was very obvious that they were sexually active and not married.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Well, I guess I was mistaken about your opinion on marriage Kelly, my apologies.

I agree that this discussion should stay about F4, the only reason I brought up "to be married, or not to be married" is because, like I said, its likely to be a modern movie about a superhero team invented in the 1960s.

I don't believe the ring on Sue's finger is fundamental to the character of either her or Reed, but that their relationship is. That's why I posted the thread. I wanted to see who agreed. Obviously I don't see a 2015 Reed Richards as the type to have a religious ceremony to celebrate his "true love." But moreso, I don't see the F4 as the type to get married for tax benefits either.

 

[Kelly]

The thing is....it doesn't have to be a huge part of the movie. As I said before, I would much rather them move on from the first 3....they got married already, heading for Venice, or whatever was sinking into the ocean...and bring on a new villain. Simply move on from the 3rd movie with a new cast. Maybe shoot some "flashback" scenes of college, or whatever....but move on.

I have mostly married couple friends, but our conversations over dinner etc....do not center around them being married, and me not. They center around whatever is going on in our lives, school, etc....our marital status isn't a big deal.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Well take it from someone a year apart from your son, I'd consider all of that to be the same in my case. Also, I assume you got married fairly young (to have a son that age) and my question to you is, do you know your son's opinion on marriage?

I'd characterize his opinion as similar to mine at 20 - he doesn't have much interest in getting married and he imagines he may never do it.

I felt the same way when I was 20. When I was 22 I met a girl I thought was pretty cool. Three months later we got married and unless she smartens up and dumps my a$$ in the next few months, we'll be celebrating our 26th anniversary this summer.


1987

2012

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I'd characterize his opinion as similar to mine at 20 - he doesn't have much interest in getting married and he imagines he may never do it.

I felt the same way when I was 20. When I was 22 I met a girl I thought was pretty cool. Three months later we got married and unless she smartens up and dumps my a$$ in the next few months, we'll be celebrating our 26th anniversary this summer.

Thats a decent point. Perhaps I'm just too young to realize marriage is the beez kneez! t: However, it might be worth mentioning (and I don't like to brag... ) but aren't people my age and younger the target audience for a flick like this? Who do they risk alienating by having a married couple as the male and female lead?

I'll tell you who. When F4:RotSS was released in 2007 I was 15 years old and the wedding scene surely alienated me. Thus my opinions expressed in this thread. Being that the film was so childish to begin with I don't quite understand who they were trying to appeal to with the bachelor party scenes and the heartfelt "I love you sis" moments.

EDIT: Before the inevitable counter argument, thats not to say I don't appreciate brother/sisterly love or heartfelt moments in general, they just felt out of place so early in A. that film, B. that film series as a whole and C. a PG film so obviously marketed toward children.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Spoiler

1987

2012

well done Willie, you certainly made it farther than could ever see myself doing.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'll tell you who. When F4:RotSS was released in 2007 I was 15 years old and the wedding scene surely alienated me. Thus my opinions expressed in this thread. Being that the film was so childish to begin with I don't quite understand who they were trying to appeal to with the bachelor party scenes and the heartfelt "I love you sis" moments.

I think you're touching on one of the single biggest flaws with Tim Story's vision.

The FF should be people who have amazing adventures and they happen to be a family as well.

Tim story saw them as a family who happen to have amazing adventures as well, and I think he spent far too much screen time on the mundane details that should be there but not the focus of the films.

I would point to The Sopranos as a way of illustrating my point. It's interesting to watch a group of gangsters who have to deal with families and the problems of daily life.

But we tune in to watch the ganster stuff and the family stuff is just there anchoring it. A good storyteller needs to understand what is story and what is background, and I don't think Tim Story fully understood that.

 

[Kelly]

I think you're touching on one of the single biggest flaws with Tim Story's vision.

The FF should be people who have amazing adventures and they happen to be a family as well.

Tim story saw them as a family who happen to have amazing adventures as well, and I think he spent far too much screen time on the mundane details that should be there but not the focus of the films.

I would point to The Sopranos as a way of illustrating my point. It's interesting to watch a group of gangsters who have to deal with families and the problems of daily life.

But we tune in to watch the ganster stuff and the family stuff is just there anchoring it. A good storyteller needs to understand what is story and what is background, and I don't think Tim Story fully understood that.

It's weird because I see it directly opposite.

I see them as a family first, with all the dynamics and problems of being a family...AND they are a superhero group as well and those things collide sometimes. IMO, that is what makes them different from all of the other superheros out there....the family dynamic is key. I think "The Incredibles" did an excellent job of melting the two together. I actually felt they were more of a family than the F4 movies.

My problem with the first and second movie was because...they didn't feel like a family.....at all, and that was my biggest gripe. Hell, they didn't even act like they liked each other. They had much more chemistry off screen than on.

 

[Xeno]

It's weird because I see it directly opposite.

I see them as a family first, with all the dynamics and problems of being a family...AND they are a superhero group as well and those things collide sometimes. IMO, that is what makes them different from all of the other superheros out there....the family dynamic is key. I think "The Incredibles" did an excellent job of melting the two together. I actually felt they were more of a family than the F4 movies.

My problem with the first and second movie was because...they didn't feel like a family.....at all, and that was my biggest gripe. Hell, they didn't even act like they liked each other. They had much more chemistry off screen than on.

In the earliest issues of the FF the characters often argued and antagonized each other so much that they would end up going their separate ways on a regular basis. Johnny was rebellious and struck out at the others; Sue often felt slighted or ignored; Reed had little concern for anyone's feelings when he was distracted by technical matters; and Ben was simply angry at his teammates and the world in general because of the rotten hand he'd been dealt. The FF would disagree with one another, be disagreeable to one another, fuss and fight, forgive and forget. In short, they acted a lot like a very dysfunctional yet very loving family. Story's films never quite got the balance just right but they did get the gist of the team's dynamic in those early days.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I'm 28 and unmarried and who knows what the future holds but I don't have a deeply anti marriage attitude.

I'm leery of any sort of intimate relationships for a myriad of reasons. Partly because the world is so obessed with patriarcal ********. Hopefully I can find that right person for myself someday.

I don't get raging anti marriage attitudes to be honest because because couples who aren't married split up just as often. I still kinda believe in marriage even with my conflicted person feelings and I think Reed and Sue should already be married when we see them. I think it would be nice and different to see a Superhero film starring a married couple.

 

[Kelly]

In the earliest issues of the FF the characters often argued and antagonized each other so much that they would end up going their separate ways on a regular basis. Johnny was rebellious and struck out at the others; Sue often felt slighted or ignored; Reed had little concern for anyone's feelings when he was distracted by technical matters; and Ben was simply angry at his teammates and the world in general because of the rotten hand he'd been dealt. The FF would disagree with one another, be disagreeable to one another, fuss and fight, forgive and forget. In short, they acted a lot like a very dysfunctional yet very loving family. Story's films never quite got the balance just right but they did get the gist of the team's dynamic in those early days.

You're not getting my point...in the comics, as you read them...yes they did in your mind, and in the minds of others. "Good writing..."

In the movies??? not so much....and that was right out there on the big screen. They did not bring the 4 to life for me...