Spider-Man 2 Regarding Doc Ock...

[Matt]

I notice a lot of people complain that the neural implants aren't close enough to the comics. That it makes him too sympathetic, that hes not really a villian.

I disagree.

I find Octavius is exactly as he is in the comics. The neural implants can explain the slaughter of the doctors working on Octavius, for self preservation purposes, but that is about it. Other than that Octavius is pretty much just using them as a scape goat to justify his actions (something comic octavius would do in a heart beat). Octavius' goal throughout the movie is to rebuild his machine. Another machine would not have the ambition to do something of that nature. It is Octavius own arrogance that convinces him to do such. His idea that he cannot be wrong and he will prove it by any means neccessary. To me that sounds exactly like comic book Octavius. The arms and neural implants are merely something he is using to justify his actions.

That is my interpration any how...

 

[The Joker]

Those scans I mentioned in the other thread,I'll post them here seeing as it's more fitting to this thread.This is in reply to your remarks that Ock is not really evil or a rule the world type villain:

Notice Peter's thoughts about Ock:

Murdering 5 million people.If that's not evil then tell me what is?? :

Snapping the neck of innocent man.Evil,evil,evil:

Some rule the world plans here,and he betrays the rest of the Sinister Six too at the same time:

More coming up later.Comics Ock is an evil and ruthless bastard who is completely in control of his own actions,movie Ock is a good guy being controlled by his own tentacles.Simple as that.

 

[The Joker]

More examples of his rule the world ambitions:

This particular one is from Stan Lee's days.You're not going to argue with Stan are you?? :

Now I have plenty more examples if you'd like them.I haven't even touched the arc where he tried to blow up New York to prove he's the most dangerous man alive,or when he beat Black Cat to the brink of death,and then returned to the hospital to finish her off.I'm not knocking you Matt.You're entitled to your opinion.But it is a fact that movie Ock is vastly different in characterisation to comics Ock.

And trying to tell me that comics Ock is not really evil or a conquer the world type villain,well that's just ridiculous,when I have a stack of comics a mile high that says otherwise.I don't know if you haven't read as many Ock comics or what,but the evidence speaks for itself.In fact,out of Spidey's main villains,Ock is the only conquer the world type villain.

Now don't get me wrong,I loved Alfred Molina's Ock in SM-2.Best thing in the movie IMO.But the character was not the Ock from the comics.

 

[The Green Goblin]

^^ 'Nuff Said.

 

[The Joker]

^^ 'Nuff Said.

Thanks Norman

Here's a few brutal murders as my way of saying thanks:

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

i wish ock would have changed his mind and actually helped keep the support stable

i sometimes wonder whether parker was just messing around with that heavy wall or if there was more pressure being put on it by the fact that the fission ball was attracting it (since parker was able to chuck it relatively easy once it was submereged).

movie ock is......a not so bad guy, definitely has redeemable traits...

but so does norman osborn in the films.

this is what happens when you make a mainstream character with loveable arch enemies into a kids film, all the characters need to be loveable to hedge bets...

 

[Geko]

Question and Opinion
Question:
I remember a comic in the 70's when Ocks arms continued to persue Spider-Man after Ock was knocked out cold. Am I wrong? And assuming I'm not, did that ever happen in the comics again?
Opinion:
I know they said the arms would "take over" but that wasn't how the performance played out for me. In the comics, to my recallection Ock did start out as a good, albiet ambitious, but not evil man. After the accident discovering he's become a freak drives him insane.
In the movie, they up'd the ante. He watches his wife die, becomes a freak AND now as 4 electronic "voices" in his head. End result, same as the comic, he's driven insane.
Doc Ock, if you're following this thread still, I'd love it if you could answer my question. As for my opinion, I suspect we disagree and I just wanted to put my opinion out there, but I'm not really into debating or defending it, so if you want to comment on that cool, or not, s'all good.

 

[The Joker]

Question and Opinion
Question:
I remember a comic in the 70's when Ocks arms continued to persue Spider-Man after Ock was knocked out cold. Am I wrong? And assuming I'm not, did that ever happen in the comics again?

I don't ever recall that happening.I have all his appearances from the 60's and 70's,and I never recall the arms doing such a thing.

He has controlled them from miles away when they were not attached to him yes,but they never had their own artificial intelligence to do what they liked when Ock was unconcious.

Opinion:
I know they said the arms would "take over" but that wasn't how the performance played out for me. In the comics, to my recallection Ock did start out as a good, albiet ambitious, but not evil man. After the accident discovering he's become a freak drives him insane.

None of the Spidey villains started out evil,except maybe Carnage.But most of them were not nice guys.Octavius for example was an arrogant,egotistical,power hungry sociopath,who saw himself above everyone else.

In the movie, they up'd the ante. He watches his wife die, becomes a freak AND now as 4 electronic "voices" in his head. End result, same as the comic, he's driven insane.

It was WHY he became a villain that strays from the source.As I said above,he was ready to drown himself at the bottom of the river before the arms took over his mind.That's not Octavius.When he acquired the arms he embraced his new power,and used it to do whatever he wanted.His actions were his own.He had no external factors influencing him.That takes away from what's special about him IMO.Ock is a famous and cunning criminal strategist.His arms shouldn't be telling him to steal money,he should be thinking that himself.

Like I said,Ock is the anti Peter Parker or the Peter Parker gone bad.He doesn't use his power responsibly and doesn't take responsibility for his actions.That's the wonderful parallel between them.Peter Parker is the geek gone good,Octavius is the geek gone bad.

Raimi had a great chance to show that,but he ended up making Octavius look like a Curt Connors clone.Nice scientist guy with a wife,who's a mentor to Peter,who becomes a victim of his own experiment.

Doc Ock, if you're following this thread still, I'd love it if you could answer my question. As for my opinion, I suspect we disagree and I just wanted to put my opinion out there, but I'm not really into debating or defending it, so if you want to comment on that cool, or not, s'all good.

Dude I was happy to answer your question,and I respect anyone's opinions,whether I agree with them or not.It's when people try to state as a FACT that the Ock in SM-2 is a loyal representation of comic Ock,that's when I really question them.Comic evidence,like that I posted above clearly shows they are two different interpretations.

I loved every second of Molina's Ock.But the character was different from the comics.But I still enjoyed him nonetheless.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I agree, Ock, you has left no room for anyone else to tread in here, nice work.

Doc in the movie is a sympathetic character and I loved it. I like the movie version more then the comics one.

 

[Geko]

Thanks Doc Ock!
But... I'm not quite ready to give up on one instance of the tentacles acting while the good Doctor was unconcious.
Now I'm not suggesting that they ever had their own intellegence in the comics, more likely they were being controlled by Ock's subconcious. However I digress...
Do you have Amazing Spider-Man #89? I had it when I was a kid, and I read it till it fell apart. I may still have pages in my comics boxes, I'll have to dig them up. Still that is where I stubbornly remember this happening. It follows 88 where Spidey is attacked by the tentacles a'la cart (which I've never read but assume were being controlled remotely.)
I'm going to dig through my collection, if you've got this issue (and it isn't a hassle or pain for you to get to it) I'd appreciate it if you humored me and had a look.
Thanks again!

 

[The Joker]

I agree, Ock, you has left no room for anyone else to tread in here, nice work.

Thank you

Doc in the movie is a sympathetic character and I loved it. I like the movie version more then the comics one.

Fair enough Though I wonder would you feel the same about the Joker,if they made him as sympathetic in the Batman Begins sequal

Thanks Doc Ock!
But... I'm not quite ready to give up on one instance of the tentacles acting while the good Doctor was unconcious.
Now I'm not suggesting that they ever had their own intellegence in the comics, more likely they were being controlled by Ock's subconcious.

I have practically every Ock comic there is,save for two or three issues I'm missing,and I know the plot of those I'm missing.I really can't think of any instances where the tentacles acted while Ock was unconcious.

If it does exist,and you do track this issue down,let me know what it is.

Do you have Amazing Spider-Man #89? I had it when I was a kid, and I read it till it fell apart. I may still have pages in my comics boxes, I'll have to dig them up. Still that is where I stubbornly remember this happening. It follows 88 where Spidey is attacked by the tentacles a'la cart (which I've never read but assume were being controlled remotely.)
I'm going to dig through my collection, if you've got this issue (and it isn't a hassle or pain for you to get to it) I'd appreciate it if you humored me and had a look.
Thanks again!

ASM#88-90 is the Death of Captain Stacy story.I do indeed have those issues.A truly classic story that.

What happens is,Ock's tentacles are on display in some mueseum at the start of the story.Everyone believes that because Ock is incarcerated so far away,that he cannot mentally command them from such a distance.
However we then see Octavius in his cell concentrating very hard to communicate with them.Suddenly they come to life and begin a rampage thru the city on their way back to Ock.
Spider-Man of course tries to combat them,but he fails,and they make their way to the prison,and Ock escapes.That happened in ASM#88.

In ASM#89 it's a full on battle of Spider-Man vs Ock.Ock is concious the entire time,and the city becomes a wrecking ground as Ock and Spidey battle across the city.At the beginning of ASM#90,Spidey can't take it anymore,so he hides in a ventilation shaft and waits for Ock to leave.

So there was no unconcious Ock in that one,if that's the story you thought it was in.

 

[Herr Logan]

Thank you



Fair enough Though I wonder would you feel the same about the Joker,if they made him as sympathetic in the Batman Begins sequal



I have practically every Ock comic there is,save for two or three issues I'm missing,and I know the plot of those I'm missing.I really can't think of any instances where the tentacles acted while Ock was unconcious.

If it does exist,and you do track this issue down,let me know what it is.



ASM#88-90 is the Death of Captain Stacy story.I do indeed have those issues.A truly classic story that.

What happens is,Ock's tentacles are on display in some mueseum at the start of the story.Everyone believes that because Ock is incarcerated so far away,that he cannot mentally command them from such a distance.
However we then see Octavius in his cell concentrating very hard to communicate with them.Suddenly they come to life and begin a rampage thru the city on their way back to Ock.
Spider-Man of course tries to combat them,but he fails,and they make their way to the prison,and Ock escapes.That happened in ASM#88.

In ASM#89 it's a full on battle of Spider-Man vs Ock.Ock is concious the entire time,and the city becomes a wrecking ground as Ock and Spidey battle across the city.At the beginning of ASM#90,Spidey can't take it anymore,so he hides in a ventilation shaft and waits for Ock to leave.

So there was no unconcious Ock in that one,if that's the story you thought it was in.

Sounds like Geko might be referring to how the tentacles acted in opposition to Octavius' commands, which did happen. Spider-Man somehow messed with the machines so they'd go crazy and that's what happened, which is how Captain Stacy got killed by the falling debris. That's not the same as if they had any "will" of their own, it's just a mechanical malfunction, or it could also be likened to certain spastic seizures in humans where body parts convulse and thrash despite the individual's wish to stay still.

 

[The Joker]

Sounds like Geko might be referring to how the tentacles acted in opposition to Octavius' commands, which did happen. Spider-Man somehow messed with the machines so they'd go crazy and that's what happened, which is how Captain Stacy got killed by the falling debris. That's not the same as if they had any "will" of their own, it's just a mechanical malfunction, or it could also be likened to certain spastic seizures in humans where body parts convulse and thrash despite the individual's wish to stay still.

Ah yes the special webbing Spidey created,which somehow disrupted Ock's mental commands to the tentacles,causing them to go crazy.

Is that what you're thinking of Geko??

 

[Geko]

I don't think so. I honestly remember Ock being out cold and the tentacles still active. I remember because of Spidey's shock at seeing that. I'll dig into the old comics this weekend, see if I can find it.

 

[Geko]

FOUND IT!.... and I was wrong.
Yeah I was remembering ASM 88, DOC OCK LIVES! It was still in my comics box, all yellow and frayed with only the back cover no longer stapled on but still with the comic. ...

*sigh* Good Times.

Anyway apparently I constructed the memory based on 2 sets of panels.

P. 16 last panel, Spidey grabs Ocks webbed tentacles and jumps off the rooftop, slamming Ock into a chimney. P. 17 1st panel, Ock is STUNNED and slumped over the chimeny but not out. Next panel, Spidey is dismayed because "Even when Ock is WEAKENED his arms remain as strong as EVER!"

Now jump to p. 19 again last panel. Spidey still coiled in Ocks arms kicks him in the chin with both feet. Ock's falling pose looks very much like one might look laying unconcious on the ground. Next panel, (after 2 pages of ads for CRAZY, GRIT and the NEW AMERICAN PHYSIQUE CHEST DEVELOPER), features just Spidey and the arms, Ock off panel, and Spidey lamenting that there is nothing he can do to get away from the tentacles.

So I guess those two sets of images simmered in my memory and got warped into the tentacles working while Ock was taking a nap.

Sorry.

But on the brighter side, thanks for giving me an excuse to dig into the old comics bin!!

 

[The Joker]

FOUND IT!.... and I was wrong.
Yeah I was remembering ASM 88, DOC OCK LIVES! It was still in my comics box, all yellow and frayed with only the back cover no longer stapled on but still with the comic. ...

*sigh* Good Times.

Actually ASM#89 is 'Doc Ock lives' You need to find that cover

And yes it was good times

Anyway apparently I constructed the memory based on 2 sets of panels.

P. 16 last panel, Spidey grabs Ocks webbed tentacles and jumps off the rooftop, slamming Ock into a chimney. P. 17 1st panel, Ock is STUNNED and slumped over the chimeny but not out. Next panel, Spidey is dismayed because "Even when Ock is WEAKENED his arms remain as strong as EVER!"

Now jump to p. 19 again last panel. Spidey still coiled in Ocks arms kicks him in the chin with both feet. Ock's falling pose looks very much like one might look laying unconcious on the ground. Next panel, (after 2 pages of ads for CRAZY, GRIT and the NEW AMERICAN PHYSIQUE CHEST DEVELOPER), features just Spidey and the arms, Ock off panel, and Spidey lamenting that there is nothing he can do to get away from the tentacles.

So I guess those two sets of images simmered in my memory and got warped into the tentacles working while Ock was taking a nap.

Sorry.

But on the brighter side, thanks for giving me an excuse to dig into the old comics bin!!

Ah so that's it.You had me doubting my Doc Ock knowledge there for a while dude LOL! No problem,it was an easy mistake to make.

See if you can find the other two issues to that story,and relive some classic Spidey times,where the characterization is at it's best.Stan Lee's finest

 

[Comic Book Boy]

Matt was reffering to the MOVIE version of Ock, which would make him right.

 

[Herr Logan]

Matt was reffering to the MOVIE version of Ock, which would make him right.

He said the movie version was very much like the one in the comics, which makes him wrong.

You know, I really do hope you do press this point. Even if you have the gall to dispute unquestionable facts, I doubt you have the patience to sift through all the cold, hard evidence our resident Ock expert is going to continue posting. Watching people set themselves up for failure is funny to me.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

And trying to tell me that comics Ock is not really evil or a conquer the world type villain,

Dock Ock had a tragic past. He had abusive childhood. And also a woman he loved left him, which led him to trying to satisfy his swollen ego by making a break-through in science. And it's stated very well in his original appearance that the radiation from the failed experiment have affected his brain, making him more evil. In a nutshell, Dock Ock is a villain whose ego is justified by terrible things that have happened to him. The concept of Dock Ock's tentacles in Spider-Man 2 is a metaphor for ego. A destructive part of yourself that can control you if you allow it. Go figure.

 

[The Joker]

Wow, this thread is an oldie (12 years!). My scan links don't work any more. That's a pity. Looking at the follow up posts they got the thumbs up.

 

[Venom 1988]

Wow, this thread is an oldie (12 years!). My scan links don't work any more. That's a pity. Looking at the follow up posts they got the thumbs up.

Yeah this is back when your username was Doc Ock lol