Rethink Drinking Age, Many University Presidents Say

[SuBe]

But kids already drink at the age of 16. In fact, I knew kids in high school who were drinking at age 14. I highly doubt there will be a massive influx in alcoholic teenagers, simply because the drinking age is lowered. They're already getting alcohol at a young age, I doubt the rate at which they get it would change.

Also, many people can handle all those responsibilities at once. I didn't get my license until I was 17, and three months later I was able to smoke, buy porn, vote, etc.. and I didn't have any problem juggling all those. In fact, I didn't exercise my rights to vote or buy porn until I was almost 19, I didn't start smoking until I was 20... not everyone out there is going to start all these 'adult' habits the second after they turn 18...

Exactly, I didn't start smoking until I was 20. I was drinking, not regularly though, at 15. However, I am from a Military Family and my mom is from a Foreign country where they drink at breakfast. Kids in her country drink growing up, and I think that that is a reason I had more respect for drinking because I didn't grow up were it was taboo for me to drink. My parents would go out and buy me what I wanted as long as I payed for it, but I knew the rules, I couldn't go out. And I follow the same rules today, if I drink at home, I'm not going out and driving around.

I always side on the side of Freedom. As a Libertarian, I don't like Government telling someone what to do as long as they don't interfere with the rights or personal property of any other individual. If an 18 year old is more responsible than a 40 year old when it comes to drinking, then shouldn't he have the ability to sit at the bar with his father? If an 18 year old can go out, serve his country, lose limbs for our freedoms, can't he have a beer?

 

[Lantern Venom]

The day you could get drafted, vote or get shot defending your country is the day you should be able to go into a bar and get a shot. It's stupid to think you can make life or death decissions, defend your country and take human life but cannot have a bud cause you can't handle it.

I've heard that argument before and I'll buy it on one condition. Let any person who wants to consume alcohol at the age of 18 spend 2 months in safe drinking boot camp. They will spent 6-8 hours a day watching videos of road fatalities, listen to speakers who have had alcohol ruin their lives, and gain a detailed knowledge of alcohol, including the immediate & long term effects on the brain, liver and heart.

You pass, you can drink.

 

[The Senator]

College can be an overwhelming transition for some. Add in legalized alcohol to an already-struggling 18 year old's life makes the situation more dire. I'm well aware that most kids who want to drink do so anyway but fear of getting arrested and/or disciplined by the school surely helps curb the behaviors in some cases.

I went to a liberal arts school that had a reputation for being a party school. While there was plenty of alcohol being consumed by underage kids, the school rules ( especially for underage kids who got caught ) did make students wary of getting plastered on campus. I think it was necessary.
Underage drinking is no laughing matter. In an age where the public is behind anti-obesity and anti-smoking campaigns, it boggles my mind that we are considering taking the restraints of off something that can cause just as many health problems in a shorter amount of time. If more drinking is encouraged, more kids will develop health problems, have accidents and even die. Worse yet, innocent people will be harmed by these people since alcohol is an intoxicant that seriously hinders good judgment.
If the government/colleges want to stop alcohol abuse, they should set up programs that reward kids for sobriety not make college a free-for-all guzzlefest.

Did you go to a public or private university? Because my assumption is, kids who go to a public university have no incentive to not screw up. $15k a year is easier to pay back than say, oh, the $48k per year I have to pay back. The type of school these students go to also has an effect on their behavior. Not to mention, some of the students who go to public institutions don't really seem to go for an education, but rather to party non-stop. The majority of "party schools" in this country are public and their reputations say a lot about that school's educational environment.

Also, these colleges are trying to lower the drinking age... they aren't going to go out and buy alcohol for the students to "guzzle"... they're trying to avoid all the unnecessary paperwork and hassle of reprimanding students for simply getting drunk, which isn't a bad idea if you ask me. Most kids who get drunk know how to handle themselves; there are only a select few who ruin it. I've never been one who has thought to deny rights to people only because a few people screw things up. That's why I'm not in favor of banning handguns, or making abortion illegal, or raising the driving age to 18...

 

[The Senator]

The thing that makes alcohol and drugs worse than other vices is it hurts innocent people. Drunk/high people are dangerous.

You need to correct your statement.

Only a few drunk/ high people are dangerous. Only a few drunkards get behind the wheel of a car... it's practically impossible for people to do that where I'm at, very few people own a car on my campus, and those who do are smart enough to not get behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated. Most people who smoke marijuana are not dangerous, either. They are lethargic, and not really willing to do anything "extreme." Other drugs are a completely different story but I don't support legalizing heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, etc.

You want to deny freedoms to everyone based on the actions of only a few individuals. That stands against everything this country is founded on.

 

[The Senator]

Drinking is far too accepted by our society in general. I just got back from Las Vegas where the smell of alcohol seemed to engulf the whole city. People, mostly adults, were drunk & buzzed all over the place. Even the smallest stores seemed to be stocked with 100 different kinds of alcohol. That is how our society thinks: fun = altering one's consciousness. Parties, vacations, sporting events have to include alcohol or drugs. It's sad.

You know what else is far too accepted by our society? Eating donuts, wearing short skirts, Blackberries, SUVs and crocs...

Again, not everyone is raging alcoholic. Because I like to have a couple of drinks (and I stress the "couple" part) every now and then, I deserve to be treated like those who can't control themselves? Fun, to me, is being able to unwind. To have a good time with friends over a couple of drinks. Getting drunk is a side effect, a rare side effect for me and many other people I know. Let me tell you, I don't go out to get drunk or alter my consciousness. You're generalizing all of society here...

 

[terry78]

I think the comparisons with the military and buying liquor are kind of apples and oranges. People always use that argument, but it seems to kind of lessen the importance of military if you compare it with having a beer. That's just how I view it. More of these little pissants will go out and buy beer than there are joining the army.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Did you go to a public or private university? Because my assumption is, kids who go to a public university have no incentive to not screw up.

It was a private and pricey one. The only way I got there was via scholarships.

Most kids who get drunk know how to handle themselves; there are only a select few who ruin it. I've never been one who has thought to deny rights to people only because a few people screw things up.

That has not been my experience nor does it backup the research I've seen. This whole debate is based on colleges recognizing that there is a problem. Lowering the drinking age to combat student alcohol abuse is akin to cutting off one's testicles just to save trimming one's pubic hair.

 

[Lantern Venom]

You know what else is far too accepted by our society? Eating donuts, wearing short skirts, Blackberries, SUVs and crocs...

..

Are any of those things psychoactive? I'm not one to deny people their rights until they become a danger to society. Drugs and alcohol make people careless in small doses and outright reckless in large ones. Unlike many vices, alcohol can screw up multiple lives in one night. I don't favor any legislation that will make those numbers grow.
Teens can continue to wait for their beer. I've made it to 35 without a drink. It's only alcohol, not oxygen.

 

[The Senator]

Are any of those things psychoactive? I'm not one to deny people their rights until they become a danger to society. Drugs and alcohol make people careless in small doses and outright reckless in large ones. Unlike many vices, alcohol can screw up multiple lives in one night. I don't favor any legislation that will make those numbers grow.
Teens can continue to wait for their beer. I've made it to 35 without a drink. It's only alcohol, not oxygen.

Eating donuts can cause people to gain weight and fat.

Wearing short skirts can cause people to get raped.

If you use your Blackberry while driving, you could get into an accident.

SUVs have a high rollover rate, they could flip over and kill people if they turn around a sharp corner.

If you wear crocs on an escalator, you could end up losing a toe.


So, yeah, these things do come with serious side effects. But only in extreme situations, like alcohol. If alcohol is used by those with poor judgment, they end up creating harm to themselves and others. But if people use alcohol wisely, there isn't a danger. Like myself and many, many other people who use alcohol wisely and have been doing so since a young age. You are grouping everyone who uses alcohol into one category, claiming that most or the majority of those who use alcohol will experience "psychoactive problems." Please, that isn't the case, it's only the minority that do that and you feel that because some people can't handle themselves, everyone has to suffer. That's kind of... ridiculous.

 

[SuBe]

As I said, I stand on the side of Freedom and Liberty, the Government shouldn't control your behavior unless your action infringes upon the rights of another. So, if you get drunk and hurt people, then you should be dealt with, at any age. If you are a responsible individual, that has a drink and doesn't hurt anyone, you should be free to do what you want.

 

[SentinelMind]

No, I'm more against this than legalizing marijuana...

I don't want the chances of me dying in a car accident to increase.

 

[BlackLantern]

Just because "kids are going to drink anyway" is hardly an excuse to lower the drinking age...

The only exception should be people who enlist in the military....if you're old enough to defend your country, you're old enough to drink...

I got lucky when I went into the service because I was stationed in Japan and they don't card if you go off base...

 

[Spider-Bite]

And, you know this how....?

a combination of common sense and life experience

Um, I don't think so, considering I started drinking when I was 18.

but had the law been 18 you'd have been more likely to drink more than you otherwise would have, and you'd have been more likely to drink as a teenager, and considering how you got your license three months prior to that, you'd have been more likely to get into a car accident.

I've always had judgment on my side, I've always been able to look at a situation and think, "gee, if I do ____, what will the consequences be?"

I really had no desire to drink in high school, and I especially had no desire to screw up any future I might have had. And, when you consider that I knew people who had easy access to alcohol, and didn't drink, I doubt the situation would have been different had the drinking age been lowered.

See, I had the fortunate experience of growing up with an alcoholic mother, who managed to get her self **** faced every night of the week. I knew what alcohol did to people, if they used it in excess, and I wasn't going to let myself stoop to their level. I wasn't going to come home after a night of heavy drinking, only to stumble over an object I never should have walked into in the first place. I wasn't going to let myself say or do thinks which would jeopardize my standing in the world. And I know many, many people who were just like that, who waited a while before they started drinking, who only began drinking when they were in college because 'everyone was doing it'... and even then, they haven't let themselves dive into alcoholism.

I'm sorry about your mother, but I would hardly call that fortunate. Look I'm not saying you have shown good judgement in your life, for one thing it's too early to tell. You still got your whole life ahead of you. It sounds like you have made good decisions so far. But you should take caution. I've known enough people who started out just like you, but ended up different from what they ever expected. If you have alcoholism in your family history, you should not look at it with such confidence or arrogance and assume you are immune to it, because you learned from the mistakes of your family. Much of this is biological, and you are at high risk for future addiction, and if you shrug it off, you can fall right into it, and not even realize it untill after your already hooked.

So, once again, your vague generalizations of an entire group of people are just that: generalizations. Just as misinformed as ever.

first off, I'm not misinformed, and you like to ask me for links left and right, so I challenge you to give some link to back that up.

Secondly I do not make stereotypes, mister gay people are shallow man. I'm simply stating a known fact. Drug addiction runs in families. That's not a vague generalization. It's reality. Seriously find one article posted which quotes an expert in drug rehabilitation who will suggest that this is just a vague generalization.

Wow, excellent, except that when you consider that I've been under stress for three years, juggling 15-18 credits per semester, infinite papers, internships and a part-time job, the window for becoming a "hardcore" smoker has already been open and I haven't allowed myself to climb through it. And considering my load is different this semester, I don't have a need to smoke constantly, in fact I've already started cutting back (three today) and the semester hasn't even begun.



Again:

As my drug rehabilitation therapist would put it your minimizing, and making excuses for it, instead of acknowledging, that you obviously feel the urge to smoke on a daily basis.

Hey it's great that you don't smoke that much, . At that rate your obviously not going to get lung cancer, and there are worse things you could be doing, but your more than likely going to be smoking a pack a day within a few years, especially if your income rises. There is no point in trying to attack somebody else's method of thinking on this, when you consider the odds. You may have reasons while you feel that you wont, but remember where I'm coming from. The odds. You can't blame me for doubting your that miraculous one in a million who's going to be different from everybody else who started out just like you.

You are acting as if your habits are the same as mine, as if everyone in the world is bound to follow the same track as you did because you started smoking. I haven't allowed myself to become addicted yet; I've gone days without cigarettes, I've never "craved" a cigarette in the year and a half I've been smoking... in fact, whenever I decide to smoke a cigarette I usually say "hey, I'm bored, maybe I'll wander outside on the terrace and smoke one."

Oh my god, somebody went back in time and brought my former self to the future to argue with me

Seriously though, on issues of drugs and addiction, thats kind of how it feels arguing with you. Like I'm arguing with myself from 10 years ago. The same argument and stories. At your age I could have gone on about how I had good grades in school full time, while simultaneously working full time, and paying for my own rent and food, and made all kinds of excuses about how I didn't have a problem.

As for your claim about "anyone under 22 is a child"... that's laughable, really. I'm more of an adult than some of the forty year olds I know, at age 21. I've been through a hell of a lot of crap in my life which made me wise up when I was younger, I've never let myself dive so deep into naivety that I've merited being called a "child." Again, your "expert" opinion on the matter is something I have to disagree with, because I've known similar people (in fact I'd say every one of my friends in this age range act and think like adults) who have never stooped so low that I'd say they have the "mentality of a child."

dude, seriously, when you grow up, you'll agree. I'm actually the one laughing right now. You'll also realize how fruitless it is to try and convince somebody young like yourself that they are wrong about this, Mr. Invincible.

and no I'm not acting as if your habits are the same as mine. I'm trying to take into account the habits of everybody. Yeah not everybody will **** up under a certain situation, but remember some will, and it's important to take them into consideration when making decisions that effect society. Your whole argument is that your amazing and perfect and immune to ever messing up. Well maybe you are, and even if you are more adult than the rest of the world, I think you need to say to yourself, "hey nobody else is as great as I am, maybe we need certain laws to help those people not **** up their life and drag the rest of society down with em"

Yeah, people in this age range screw up all the time. But you know what? Most of them will learn from their mistakes. Most of them, like I did, will realize that getting drunk four nights in a row isn't a smart move.

ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! ADDICTION! ADDICTION! ADDICTION!! I hate to say this. GO READ A BOOK FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You think all those addicts planned on living a life of misery? Do you think they just dropped out of the sky somehow? Learn a thing or two about addiction. Yeah people learn all the time, but they ususally learn after they are addicted. They think they are invincible, untill after they are addicted. Then they learn, but they still can't stop. Yeah let's teach people about drug addiction, by helping them get drunk untill they are addicted. Than they will learn.

They'll wise up, they'll understand that what they're doing is harming them... most of them will, at least. All of that is a part of becoming an adult, and capable of making their own decisions. You can't tie a leash around these people forever, and expect them to magically start making well-informed choices the day they turn 21 (or 22, as you like to say). This age range, the "undergraduate" age, is the time when people mature the most.

Consequences of Underage Drinking
Youth who drink alcohol1,3,8 are more likely to experience

• School problems, such as higher absence and poor or failing grades.
• Social problems, such as fighting and lack of participation in youth activities.
• Legal problems, such as arrest for driving or physically hurting someone while drunk.
• Physical problems, such as hangovers or illnesses.
• Unwanted, unplanned, and unprotected sexual activity.
• Disruption of normal growth and sexual development.
• Physical and sexual assault.
• Higher risk for suicide and homicide.
• Alcohol-related car crashes and other unintentional injuries, such as burns, falls, and drowning.
• Memory problems.
• Abuse of other drugs.
• Changes in brain development that may have life-long effects.
• Death from alcohol poisoning.
• http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/quickstats/underage_drinking.htm

You obviously don't go to the same bars I go to. Then again, I take it you're probably not into twinks and dykes, so I wouldn't expect you to go there.

Obviously is an understatement. Statistically it's almost a gurantee that I don't go to the same bars as you.

I have an anxiety disorder as well, that never stopped me from fitting in.

I never really had trouble fitting in, it's just I don't like going there when I don't know practically anybody.

Maybe the laws are different here on the nation's Left Coast.



Again, you've obviously not been in a big city,

I've lived most of my life in one of the biggest cities Wisconsin has to offer. I figured that was clear when I said I called 200 bars in my city.

there's never been a night that I've been at a bar here without seeing a massive crowd of 18-20 year olds (well, scratch that-- last week, I went to a bar, but there weren't that many college kids there because most of them hadn't moved back for the semester).

You seem to be committed to this belief that bars have a widespread and common problem of being full of people too young to drink. would you care to post a link backing this up?

No, a good chunk of them are 18-20. I recognize faces from campus, I even bring an entourage of my 18-20 year old friends with me.



My school isn't known for its localized student population, so I highly doubt that people had their parents come from NJ or PA just to take them to the bar.

hhkhkh
[/quote]

If you recognize them from the dorms, that's different, but your simply recognizing them from the school, which suggests that they do live in the area. In addition the fact that you merely recognize their face tells you little about their age.

In addition there is always a bad apple in the bunch. Perhaps the bar your aware of is the bad apple? If every bar was like that, do you know how easy it would be for prosecutors to have these guys busted? They just pick any random bar, send in an undercover, and bam, your the man of the evening for busting somebody.

Most bars aren't like that. I've bought alcohol well over a hundred times, and at many various locations, in various cities. Never once in a bar, or at a store have I not been asked for an ID. Not even one time. Happened plenty of times buying cigarettes, but never alcohol. I know it happens, but most places ID. It's also possible that somebody on your campus has access to fake IDs which means that anybody who knows anybody will have access to that person, and you will have an unususally high number of fake IDs on your campus, where as normally a dealer selling fake Ids is harder to come by than a dealer selling a bag of weed.

In addition

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/quickstats/underage_drinking.htm
Youth who start drinking before age 15 years are five times more likely to develop alcohol dependence or abuse later in life than those who begin drinking at or after age 21 years.9,10

You see the difference in waiting? I'd say five times more likely to have a problem is strong evidence to support waiting. I realize that many kids will drink. The overwhelming majority have had alcohol before turning 18, but it's not super easy to get, especially on a regular basis. It's not like every teenager is drunk every day. If you lower the age to 18, drinking at age 18 might not increase much, but it will increase the amount of drinking that goes on for children under the age of 18.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Reducing underage drinking will require community-based efforts to monitor the activities of youth and decrease youth access to alcohol. Recent publications by the Surgeon General1 and the Institute of Medicine3 outlined many prevention strategies that will require actions on the national, state, and local levels, such as enforcement of minimum legal drinking age laws, national media campaigns targeting youth and adults, increasing alcohol excise taxes, reducing youth exposure to alcohol advertising, and development of comprehensive community-based programs. These efforts will require continued research and evaluation to determine their success and to improve their effectiveness.

taken from former posted link

 

[Spider-Bite]

Just because "kids are going to drink anyway" is hardly an excuse to lower the drinking age...

The only exception should be people who enlist in the military....if you're old enough to defend your country, you're old enough to drink...

I got lucky when I went into the service because I was stationed in Japan and they don't card if you go off base...

I'm opposed to lowering the drinking age, however I'd like to add that "people will just do it anyways" is important to take into consideration, because of the possiblity of unintended consequences of the law. If it's not going to stop them, than what effect will it have?

I believe that this does not stop kids from consuming alcohol. It does stop kids from consuming as much as they otherwise would, and the legal consequences are not life shattering to one's life as they often are when adults get caught with marijuana.

I'd also like to add that part of my support for legalizing marijuana is based on the fact that drinking is much worse for a person than smoking marijuana.

 

[The Senator]

Oh man, this is getting so long I'm going to have to cut it in thirds.

THE RESPONSE, PART I

but had the law been 18 you'd have been more likely to drink more than you otherwise would have, and you'd have been more likely to drink as a teenager, and considering how you got your license three months prior to that, you'd have been more likely to get into a car accident.

NO. YOU. ARE. WRONG.

I HAD the opportunity to drink when I was in my mid-teens, I chose not to. Even if the drinking age had been lowered I would have chosen NOT to drink. You cannot tell me, definitively, that you know what would have been "more likely." I had NO desire to drink until I hit college. NONE. And I still have NO desire to drink in excess. It is an expensive habit, a filthy habit, and I'm not putting my life or future on the line for alcohol. That's how it has ALWAYS been, that's how it ALWAYS will be. I had no access to a car on a regular basis until I was in college, my parents wouldn't let me drive at night, and I'm POSITIVE that would have stayed the same regardless of the drinking age. So all of the possibilities that you have thrown at me do not exist in any alternative reality. So STOP acting as if you know how things would be if the drinking age was differently; YOU are a total, presumptuous idiot trying to make a point which DOESN'T exist.

I'm sorry about your mother, but I would hardly call that fortunate. Look I'm not saying you have shown good judgement in your life, for one thing it's too early to tell. You still got your whole life ahead of you. It sounds like you have made good decisions so far. But you should take caution. I've known enough people who started out just like you, but ended up different from what they ever expected. If you have alcoholism in your family history, you should not look at it with such confidence or arrogance and assume you are immune to it, because you learned from the mistakes of your family. Much of this is biological, and you are at high risk for future addiction, and if you shrug it off, you can fall right into it, and not even realize it untill after your already hooked.

SIGH.

I've learned from my mother's mistakes and I will NEVER allow myself to drink in excess. Don't you understand that? What part of that is so hard for you to understand? My mother has thrown her life away; I have done the exact opposite of everything she has done in her life, and I'm only in my twenties. There is NO CHANCE that I will end up like her, because her behavior DISGUSTS me. It SICKENS me. It EMBARRASSES me and everyone who knows her. It has DIVIDED my family and my family's relationships.

I. DO. NOT want to end up like that, and because I know what I want in life, I will do everything to assure it doesn't happen. Three drinks at a bar in one week isn't equal to an entire handle vodka or rum every two nights.

I have one thing she doesn't have, and that's self control, and maybe because you don't know me you can't get that through your thick, inconsiderate skull.

AND you don't have to tell me about "addiction." One of the reasons why I drink so little, is because I KNOW how prone to alcoholism I am. I don't think realizing that if I drink too much, I might become addicted is arrogance at all. In fact, I think it is arrogant of you to assume you know more about me than I do.

Secondly I do not make stereotypes, mister gay people are shallow man.

Gay people are shallow. I'm shallow, my gay friends of shallow-- we're all a shallow bunch. Again, you're not a homosexual nor do you spend half your time around gay people so you probably wouldn't know... it isn't a stereotype if it's true...

I'm simply stating a known fact. Drug addiction runs in families. That's not a vague generalization. It's reality. Seriously find one article posted which quotes an expert in drug rehabilitation who will suggest that this is just a vague generalization.

Yes, drug addiction runs in families. I KNOW THIS. Which is why I'm intelligent enough to realize that I need to keep my drinking under control, which is what I have been doing for three years now. So instead of telling me what you assume to be the case for every person on the planet, you can get off your high horse and realize that it is DIFFERENT for everyone, and that some people are smart enough to know how to control themselves.

As my drug rehabilitation therapist would put it your minimizing, and making excuses for it, instead of acknowledging, that you obviously feel the urge to smoke on a daily basis.

Um, no. I don't have an urge to smoke on a regular basis. I really only smoke when I'm bored, or at the bar. And I usually don't go above four cigarettes on a regular basis (again, I've only had three cigarettes today and I'll probably have another one after I go to bed).

And, as I've said, I've gone days without cigarettes, without feeling an urge to smoke. I've gone days where I haven't bought a pack, or have had a pack nearby and haven't smoked out of it. SO, uh, your therapist's advice doesn't count in my case.

Hey it's great that you don't smoke that much, . At that rate your obviously not going to get lung cancer, and there are worse things you could be doing, but your more than likely going to be smoking a pack a day within a few years, especially if your income rises. There is no point in trying to attack somebody else's method of thinking on this, when you consider the odds. You may have reasons while you feel that you wont, but remember where I'm coming from. The odds. You can't blame me for doubting your that miraculous one in a million who's going to be different from everybody else who started out just like you.

I can blame you, because your narrow-mindedness has completely blocked out the possibility that there are some people who don't walk the same path you do in life, who are capable of exhibiting self control. I'm sorry I know how to watch my drinking or my smoking or my drug use, and that I don't succumb to every substance like you have in your life. I'm sorry I never allowed myself to become addicted to a substance which is practically impossible to become addicted to (marijuana) and I'm especially sorry I haven't had to go through drug rehabilitation, like you. But what I'm most sorry about, is your inability to realize that YOUR experiences are not DEFINITIVE of everyone else's.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Eating donuts can cause people to gain weight and fat.

Wearing short skirts can cause people to get raped.

If you use your Blackberry while driving, you could get into an accident.

SUVs have a high rollover rate, they could flip over and kill people if they turn around a sharp corner.

If you wear crocs on an escalator, you could end up losing a toe.


So, yeah, these things do come with serious side effects. But only in extreme situations, like alcohol. .

These are irrelevant analogies. Unlike alcohol, none of the things above have any effect on the brain. I don't care who you are, you simply cannot will an intoxicant to have no effect on you. To make such a thing more accepted among a group that is already abusing it has no positive effects for society. Let the kids wait. It's only alcohol.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Oh man, this is getting so long I'm going to have to cut it in thirds.

THE RESPONSE, PART I



NO. YOU. ARE. WRONG.

I HAD the opportunity to drink when I was in my mid-teens, I chose not to. Even if the drinking age had been lowered I would have chosen NOT to drink. You cannot tell me, definitively, that you know what would have been "more likely." I had NO desire to drink until I hit college. NONE. And I still have NO desire to drink in excess. It is an expensive habit, a filthy habit, and I'm not putting my life or future on the line for alcohol. That's how it has ALWAYS been, that's how it ALWAYS will be. I had no access to a car on a regular basis until I was in college, my parents wouldn't let me drive at night, and I'm POSITIVE that would have stayed the same regardless of the drinking age. So all of the possibilities that you have thrown at me do not exist in any alternative reality. So STOP acting as if you know how things would be if the drinking age was differently; YOU are a total, presumptuous idiot trying to make a point which DOESN'T exist.

there is no way for you to definititively say that a lower age drinking requirment wouldn't have had made a difference. And I was going by the odds, and the statistics. Thats why I say you would have been more likely.

SIGH.

I've learned from my mother's mistakes and I will NEVER allow myself to drink in excess. Don't you understand that? What part of that is so hard for you to understand? My mother has thrown her life away; I have done the exact opposite of everything she has done in her life, and I'm only in my twenties. There is NO CHANCE that I will end up like her, because her behavior DISGUSTS me. It SICKENS me. It EMBARRASSES me and everyone who knows her. It has DIVIDED my family and my family's relationships.

I. DO. NOT want to end up like that, and because I know what I want in life, I will do everything to assure it doesn't happen. Three drinks at a bar in one week isn't equal to an entire handle vodka or rum every two nights.

Nobody said it was equal.

I have one thing she doesn't have, and that's self control, and maybe because you don't know me you can't get that through your thick, inconsiderate skull.

AND you don't have to tell me about "addiction." One of the reasons why I drink so little, is because I KNOW how prone to alcoholism I am. I don't think realizing that if I drink too much, I might become addicted is arrogance at all. In fact, I think it is arrogant of you to assume you know more about me than I do.

than what was with the vague generalization comment, if you realize it's true? According to you it's true now, even though a few posts ago it was a misinformed vague generalization?

Gay people are shallow. I'm shallow, my gay friends of shallow-- we're all a shallow bunch. Again, you're not a homosexual nor do you spend half your time around gay people so you probably wouldn't know... it isn't a stereotype if it's true...

Actually I do spend half my time around gay people. The only consisten difference between them and everybody else, is that they are gay, and more likely to suffer from depression.

Yes, drug addiction runs in families. I KNOW THIS.

So you admit it is not a vague generalization?

Which is why I'm intelligent enough to realize that I need to keep my drinking under control, which is what I have been doing for three years now. So instead of telling me what you assume to be the case for every person on the planet, you can get off your high horse and realize that it is DIFFERENT for everyone, and that some people are smart enough to know how to control themselves.

I know some people are. I think what you don't realize is that some people aren't, and the younger they are, the less likely they will be able to make the right choices.

Um, no. I don't have an urge to smoke on a regular basis. I really only smoke when I'm bored, or at the bar. And I usually don't go above four cigarettes on a regular basis (again, I've only had three cigarettes today and I'll probably have another one after I go to bed).

And, as I've said, I've gone days without cigarettes, without feeling an urge to smoke. I've gone days where I haven't bought a pack, or have had a pack nearby and haven't smoked out of it. SO, uh, your therapist's advice doesn't count in my case.

Me too. Wow. umm, except it was years ago when that last happened. Like almsot a decade.

I can blame you, because your narrow-mindedness has completely blocked out the possibility that there are some people who don't walk the same path you do in life, who are capable of exhibiting self control. I'm sorry I know how to watch my drinking or my smoking or my drug use, and that I don't succumb to every substance like you have in your life. I'm sorry I never allowed myself to become addicted to a substance which is practically impossible to become addicted to (marijuana) and I'm especially sorry I haven't had to go through drug rehabilitation, like you. But what I'm most sorry about, is your inability to realize that YOUR experiences are not DEFINITIVE of everyone else's.

I am hardly narrow minded. In fact I am basing this on the countless possiblities, and taking into consideration all the different kinds of people that will live through this law, where as you only take into consideration people just like yourself. You make yourself sound amazing and perfect, and assume that everybody else will live up to this standard. I'm saying that wont happen. I'm saying some people will do just fine, but many wont, and the "many wont" is my reason for opposing this.

 

[The Senator]

THE RESPONSE, PART II

Spider-Bite
Oh my god, somebody went back in time and brought my former self to the future to argue with me

Seriously though, on issues of drugs and addiction, thats kind of how it feels arguing with you. Like I'm arguing with myself from 10 years ago. The same argument and stories. At your age I could have gone on about how I had good grades in school full time, while simultaneously working full time, and paying for my own rent and food, and made all kinds of excuses about how I didn't have a problem.

Great, that's what happened with you in the long run. But it hasn't happened with me yet, it WON'T happen with me because I know what I'm doing. The only way to guarantee that I won't end up like you is to quit everything I'm doing, and I'm not going to do that because I've shown self control and judgment these past few years, which sounds like something you were incapable of doing. I'm not making excuses here, I'm telling you the truth, and if you don't want to believe it, that's fine and dandy. Just keep your narrow-minded opinions to yourself, because I'm not like you or most people and I will NEVER allow myself to cross the lines you've crossed in life. I intend on being a success, I intend on going somewhere, unlike you who seems to be in his late twenties screwing up left and right. You're still in college, right? Well, I'll be out of the slammer in another year, and then we'll see if our paths are the same. In fact, ten years from tonight, if I'm still posting on this website, I'll let you know how I'm doing. I highly doubt I'll let myself slip up as badly as you have.

dude, seriously, when you grow up, you'll agree. I'm actually the one laughing right now. You'll also realize how fruitless it is to try and convince somebody young like yourself that they are wrong about this, Mr. Invincible.

Again:

YOU ARE WRONG.

You are so incredibly arrogant it exceeds absurdity and is just plain annoying. You think you know everything because you've been "down that broken road before," but you are wrong. Not everyone is like you, some people are able to think before the do and weigh the consequences of their actions. You, however, don't want to admit that you might be wrong, because you want everyone else to suffer like you do. You think because you had it absolutely awful, everyone is destined to do the same. Well I've got news for you: You aren't the only person who ever suffered from addiction, you aren't the only person who ever smoked or drank on this planet, and your experiences ARE NOT definitive of everybody else's.

Yeah, maybe I'm one in a million. Gee, you never thought that was possible?

"It can't be possible that I'm talking to someone who has self control! No way, I was a foolish child growing up and he has to be too, because, uh, I SAID SO!!! "

You sound so utterly ridiculous right now I don't know whether to laugh or slit my throat.

and no I'm not acting as if your habits are the same as mine. I'm trying to take into account the habits of everybody. Yeah not everybody will **** up under a certain situation, but remember some will, and it's important to take them into consideration when making decisions that effect society. Your whole argument is that your amazing and perfect and immune to ever messing up. Well maybe you are, and even if you are more adult than the rest of the world, I think you need to say to yourself, "hey nobody else is as great as I am, maybe we need certain laws to help those people not **** up their life and drag the rest of society down with em"

My argument is not that I'm amazing and perfect

If I was amazing and perfect, I wouldn't have touched either of the three substances I have admitted to using in my life. My argument is that YOU think EVERYONE will end up like you.

THAT.

ARGUMENT.

IS.

BULL ****.

The average person who uses these substances may end up like that. But you know what "average" means? It means that there's a certain number of people above average, and a certain number of people below average. A certain number of people above the average drinker will drink themselves to an all-time low and throw their lives away (like my mother); a certain number of people will keep their drinking under control and realize when enough is enough and might even stop themselves while they're ahead (like me).

I realize the consequences; you just can't admit that anyone else out there is unlike you. Which is worse than arrogant, really, it is just plain stupid.

ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! ADDICTION! ADDICTION! ADDICTION!! I hate to say this. GO READ A BOOK FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, uh, reading a book will tell me exactly what's going to happen in my life?

Which book should I pick? I hope it has a happy ending, where I marry my boyfriend, have kids, and end up living someplace nice...

You think all those addicts planned on living a life of misery? Do you think they just dropped out of the sky somehow? Learn a thing or two about addiction. Yeah people learn all the time, but they ususally learn after they are addicted. They think they are invincible, untill after they are addicted. Then they learn, but they still can't stop. Yeah let's teach people about drug addiction, by helping them get drunk untill they are addicted. Than they will learn.

Uh huh.

Well, if I ever meet that path, I'll let you know.

But, uh, it hasn't happened yet and there's no foreseeable sign that it will, unless I take your advice seriously. Because your advice, is a steaming pile of generalized bull **** I couldn't even make up. I'm currently able to control myself, it looks like I'll be able to control myself for a long time, and based on what's happened so far I highly doubt I'll be as moronic enough as you were to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day or become addicted to marijuana or whatever other filthy habits you've decided to reduce yourself to.

Obviously is an understatement. Statistically it's almost a gurantee that I don't go to the same bars as you.

Yeah, which is why your argument in the previous post was ridiculous.

I never really had trouble fitting in, it's just I don't like going there when I don't know practically anybody.

Which is why I bring an entourage.

I've lived most of my life in one of the biggest cities Wisconsin has to offer. I figured that was clear when I said I called 200 bars in my city.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but Milwaukee, the biggest city in Wisconsin, doesn't have as many people in its metropolitan area as DC. So if you live in any other cities in Wisconsin I highly doubt your experiences even come close to matching mine.

You seem to be committed to this belief that bars have a widespread and common problem of being full of people too young to drink. would you care to post a link backing this up?

Tell you what-- I'm going out tomorrow night. I'll bring a camera with me an take pictures, to please you because the thick shield of arrogance you hide behind prevents you from considering that, in one of the most liberal cities in the country, the way people approach something like alcohol would be liberal as well.

 

[The Senator]

THE RESPONSE, PART III

Spider Bite
If you recognize them from the dorms, that's different, but your simply recognizing them from the school, which suggests that they do live in the area. In addition the fact that you merely recognize their face tells you little about their age.

Not many people attend my university.

Plus, I'm very active in my student government, I know a lot of people (perhaps not personally) and recognize them when I go out. And considering the majority of people who live in the dorms are under the age of 21 (room and board is so outrageous all the kids with silver spoons move out in their sophomore or junior years), I can guess fairly well their age. Also, I take people under 21 to bars with me, and buy them drinks, so yes, this does happen.

In addition there is always a bad apple in the bunch. Perhaps the bar your aware of is the bad apple? If every bar was like that, do you know how easy it would be for prosecutors to have these guys busted? They just pick any random bar, send in an undercover, and bam, your the man of the evening for busting somebody.

I got to four bars on a regular basis, two gay bars and two "normal" bars. And these bars/ clubs are not known for their horrible reputations.

Also, the prosecutors would have to give two ****s in this city about shutting these bars down. You do realize this city re-elected its mayor after he was caught on video dealing crack? I doubt they're going to demand that bars are shut down because a few kids are drinking under the age.

Most bars aren't like that. I've bought alcohol well over a hundred times, and at many various locations, in various cities. Never once in a bar, or at a store have I not been asked for an ID. Not even one time. Happened plenty of times buying cigarettes, but never alcohol. I know it happens, but most places ID. It's also possible that somebody on your campus has access to fake IDs which means that anybody who knows anybody will have access to that person, and you will have an unususally high number of fake IDs on your campus, where as normally a dealer selling fake Ids is harder to come by than a dealer selling a bag of weed.

Most bars in Wisconsin, the flannel-shirt wearing, cheese-eating, tractor-driving, snow-shoveling armpit of the Midwest, aren't like that. Move to the east coast-- a major city on the east coast, like DC, Philly, NYC, or Boston-- and you'll discover just how different a mentality it is here.

And no, they don't have access to fake IDs. I don't know why they would need a fake ID when the bartenders don't check

You see the difference in waiting? I'd say five times more likely to have a problem is strong evidence to support waiting. I realize that many kids will drink. The overwhelming majority have had alcohol before turning 18, but it's not super easy to get, especially on a regular basis. It's not like every teenager is drunk every day. If you lower the age to 18, drinking at age 18 might not increase much, but it will increase the amount of drinking that goes on for children under the age of 18.

I never said that it wouldn't increase for kids under the age of eighteen. However, I did say that it was idiotic of you to assume that most kids under a certain age don't drink. That it was idiotic of you to think that accidents are definitely going to increase, that people will be more likely to dive into alcoholism... in fact, all of my responses have been responding to your generalized opinion about everything.

Your belief that everyone is destined to act like you, that just because a study suggests something means that everyone is going to end up like the results of that study. YOU cannot imagine a world where anomalies exist, and you'd rather punish all of society because a few bad people go down a bad path.

It's stupid, foolish thinking. Again, that's why I don't think handguns should be taken away from people, why I don't think the driving age should be raised... because many people are able to handle themselves in serious situations. Because the majority of people are responsible. Because the majority of people know what the consequences of their actions are.

YOU, however, cannot seem to admit that people have control over themselves, that most people know what they're doing before they do it and know when to stop before it gets to be too much. That's where I'm at, that's where many people are at, and I'd like to ask you to stop telling me that I'm likely to end up like you because you do not know this as fact.

Now, I'm going to have a gin and tonic, then smoke my last cigarette of the evening... I truly hope this won't send me over the deep end...

 

[The Senator]

By the way, I mean no offense to Wisconsinites with my above comment... I just felt like being "hyperbolic"

 

[Spider-Bite]

THE RESPONSE, PART II



Great, that's what happened with you in the long run. But it hasn't happened with me yet, it WON'T happen with me because I know what I'm doing. The only way to guarantee that I won't end up like you is to quit everything I'm doing, and I'm not going to do that because I've shown self control and judgment these past few years, which sounds like something you were incapable of doing. I'm not making excuses here, I'm telling you the truth, and if you don't want to believe it, that's fine and dandy. Just keep your narrow-minded opinions to yourself, because I'm not like you or most people and I will NEVER allow myself to cross the lines you've crossed in life. I intend on being a success, I intend on going somewhere, unlike you who seems to be in his late twenties screwing up left and right. You're still in college, right? Well, I'll be out of the slammer in another year, and then we'll see if our paths are the same. In fact, ten years from tonight, if I'm still posting on this website, I'll let you know how I'm doing. I highly doubt I'll let myself slip up as badly as you have.

good luck, not sarcastically, just good luck and moving on. this argument is not about you. If you grow up and turn out to be great, that has no bearing on any of this.

Again:

YOU ARE WRONG.

You are so incredibly arrogant it exceeds absurdity and is just plain annoying. You think you know everything because you've been "down that broken road before," but you are wrong. Not everyone is like you, some people are able to think before the do and weigh the consequences of their actions. You, however, don't want to admit that you might be wrong, because you want everyone else to suffer like you do. You think because you had it absolutely awful, everyone is destined to do the same. Well I've got news for you: You aren't the only person who ever suffered from addiction, you aren't the only person who ever smoked or drank on this planet, and your experiences ARE NOT definitive of everybody else's.

I never said my experiences were like everybody else. In fact in the legalization of marijuana debate, I pointed out that even though marijuana is a problem for me, it's not a problem for every person that uses it, and I then gave examples of people who's only problems they ever had from it arrived at the hands of the criminilization of marijuana.

You see you claim that I think I know everything. well your wrong. and our arguments go to show it. I like to think and take countless possiblities into consideration, and weight the effects that it will have on an entire generation, remembering that many in bad situations will not react well, instead of saying "i did it, therefore everybody else can"

Yeah, maybe I'm one in a million. Gee, you never thought that was possible?

Umm, Id' say the odds are one in a million.

"It can't be possible that I'm talking to someone who has self control! No way, I was a foolish child growing up and he has to be too, because, uh, I SAID SO!!! "

You sound so utterly ridiculous right now I don't know whether to laugh or slit my throat.

first off I didn't say I was a foolish child growing up. Here is the deal, anxiety disorders make a person get addicted to substances much more easily, especially if it's a severe one as mine is. well the more they use the substance the worse the disorder gets, and the worse it gets, the more addicted they become.

That is why marijuana has become such a problem for me. As for other people, not all of them have a problem, and the maojrity of the problems I have witnessed in other people have come from the government making it illegal.

That is why despite the fact that I had a problem with it, I still support legalizing it. Not because I think everybody is like me, but because of all the different kinds of people and situations in this world. Person with good job fails drug test, goes back to welfare. Kid looses financial aid, life down the tubes, etc. From looking at all of the different kinds of situations.

Your not doing that. You always point to yourself and say "look I did this and I'm doing that, and this is what you do in life" and then just assume that everybody goes by that.

They don't.

My argument is that I'm amazing and perfect

There I corrected it for you.

If I was amazing and perfect, I wouldn't have touched either of the three substances I have admitted to using in my life. My argument is that YOU think EVERYONE will end up like you.

That was never ever my argument. I've never even been a big drinker. My argument was that if you lower the drinking age to 18, you will put more of it in the hands of children, who will then drink more often. And yes I have stated that is bad for a person's life. You dismiss that as me comparing everybody to me, but I have provided stats to prove that it is not good for children to drink. You say they will make great choices and move up in the world, but the stats contradict that.

THAT.

ARGUMENT.

IS.

BULL ****.

than refute it. I believe that the gtovernment needs to help society. and you claim that is bull ****? that is what you have the quote tags wrapped around, and then you say it is bull ****. well come on. give abetter response than that. if your trying to claim that some people wont mess up their lives, your gonna have a hard time backing that up.

The average person who uses these substances may end up like that. But you know what "average" means? It means that there's a certain number of people above average, and a certain number of people below average. A certain number of people above the average drinker will drink themselves to an all-time low and throw their lives away (like my mother); a certain number of people will keep their drinking under control and realize when enough is enough and might even stop themselves while they're ahead (like me).

So what about those below average people? what are we going to do about them? That is who i am talking about here. Even if only 1 out of 10 are effected in a bad way, those are still lives that count, that can not be ignored or discarded. We still have to look out for those people, especially when they are children.

I realize the consequences; you just can't admit that anyone else out there is unlike you. Which is worse than arrogant, really, it is just plain stupid.

I agree it's stupid, however that is not what I said by any means. You are injecting points into my argument just so you can refute something. Refute my actual argument, instead of some imginary argument that I dont' get to participate in.

So, uh, reading a book will tell me exactly what's going to happen in my life?

No reading a bood on drug addiction will educate you to how things work. It's not about you. Okay for the sake of argument, let's pretend you don't exist.

Okay, now that you don't exist, how are kids going to handle this? You claim that will learn from their mistakes that being drunk four knights in a row is a bad idea right? Well if they already made that mistake, than there is a high probablity that they are already addicted, if they are getting drunk four knights in a row. in fact in the stat I provided young binge drinkers are way more likely to develop a problem. That is why I told you to read a book, so you can learn how many drug addictions progress, because based on everything you have said about addiction in this thread and others, it's clear, you are not educated on the subject.

Which book should I pick? I hope it has a happy ending, where I marry my boyfriend, have kids, and end up living someplace nice...



Uh huh.

Well, if I ever meet that path, I'll let you know.

these responses are not really refuting what I have said. They are just sarcastic comments written there, because you couldn't think of anything to say, and you don't want to admit I'm right. The truth remains, many addicts don't learn from their mistake untill it's too late. That is true, and all the "uh huhs and If I meet that path"s in the world wont change that.

But, uh, it hasn't happened yet and there's no foreseeable sign that it will, unless I take your advice seriously. Because your advice, is a steaming pile of generalized bull **** I couldn't even make up. I'm currently able to control myself, it looks like I'll be able to control myself for a long time, and based on what's happened so far I highly doubt I'll be as moronic enough as you were to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day or become addicted to marijuana or whatever other filthy habits you've decided to reduce yourself to.

to you as a person, the only adice I gave was to keep an open mind to the possiblities of what could happen to you, because many addicts were formerly convinced "it wont happen to me." And you make it sound impossible, when your actually at higher risk, due to your family history.

Yeah, which is why your argument in the previous post was ridiculous.

How does that make my argument ridiculous?

Well, I hate to break it to you, but Milwaukee, the biggest city in Wisconsin, doesn't have as many people in its metropolitan area as DC. So if you live in any other cities in Wisconsin I highly doubt your experiences even come close to matching mine.

that's your argument, your city is bigger than mine? First off I dont' live in Milwaukee, and once you get past a hundred thousand, it doesn't matter. it'snot like your gonna meet every person there. and newsflash, the overwhelming majority of the country does not live in DC. and no I never said they all lived in my city either. I said the scene your portrayed of bars is not representative of America, and it's not.

Tell you what-- I'm going out tomorrow night. I'll bring a camera with me an take pictures, to please you because the thick shield of arrogance you hide behind prevents you from considering that, in one of the most liberal cities in the country, the way people approach something like alcohol would be liberal as well.

How about a video camera and a survey of you going from bar to bar asking people their age? yeah I could go to one gas station and say look "most gas stations don't ask for ID" but if I went to 30 of them, it'd have a different outcome.

 

[Spider-Bite]

THE RESPONSE, PART III



Not many people attend my university.

Plus, I'm very active in my student government, I know a lot of people (perhaps not personally) and recognize them when I go out. And considering the majority of people who live in the dorms are under the age of 21 (room and board is so outrageous all the kids with silver spoons move out in their sophomore or junior years), I can guess fairly well their age. Also, I take people under 21 to bars with me, and buy them drinks, so yes, this does happen.

I'm betting most people at your university do not live in the dorms.

I got to four bars on a regular basis, two gay bars and two "normal" bars. And these bars/ clubs are not known for their horrible reputations.

you have been giving them one here all week.

Also, the prosecutors would have to give two ****s in this city about shutting these bars down. You do realize this city re-elected its mayor after he was caught on video dealing crack? I doubt they're going to demand that bars are shut down because a few kids are drinking under the age.

All this talk about representative of the norm, and you give me an example with a crack buying major? Most cities don't have majors that were caught buying crack.

Most bars in Wisconsin, the flannel-shirt wearing, cheese-eating, tractor-driving, snow-shoveling armpit of the Midwest, aren't like that. Move to the east coast-- a major city on the east coast, like DC, Philly, NYC, or Boston-- and you'll discover just how different a mentality it is here.

God you like to stereotype. First off I lived in a big city, full of gang violence and shopping centers. Not cornfields and haystacks.

And no, they don't have access to fake IDs. I don't know why they would need a fake ID when the bartenders don't check

Not every bar is like that.

I never said that it wouldn't increase for kids under the age of eighteen. However, I did say that it was idiotic of you to assume that most kids under a certain age don't drink.

I never said that. I never ever said that. I said it would increase, and I provided links showing the harm that increased drinking causes on young lives.

That it was idiotic of you to think that accidents are definitely going to increase, that people will be more likely to dive into alcoholism... in fact, all of my responses have been responding to your generalized opinion about everything.

but I provided a link proving it

Your belief that everyone is destined to act like you, that just because a study suggests something means that everyone is going to end up like the results of that study. YOU cannot imagine a world where anomalies exist, and you'd rather punish all of society because a few bad people go down a bad path.

your not staying true to the debate, and you are distorting how it has progressed. and you are making basefless accusations against me, which can not be back up, and I'd like a quote showing where I said everybody will end up like me. For the sake of argument I'll pretend I dont' exist. Now that I don't exist.... many people will have drug problems, and I'm sure you agree with that, so there is no point in you trying to refute that. It's true. Said and done true. Many people will have problems.

YOU, however, cannot seem to admit that people have control over themselves,

Not everybody does. They become trapped in cycles.

 

[BlackLantern]

I find that people tend to use stress as an excuse for their bad habits or unacceptable behavior...I spent a year and a half in the service before I started drinking at 19 and it was basically me succumbing to peer pressure at that point....

 

[UA-Archangel]

Aside from the fact that many would start drinking anyway, I'd rather not have them lower the age of drinking.

I have some ethical issues when we change laws, just because people will do something anyway.