Riots in Missouri - Part 2

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well no. Suicide by cop implies that the person wants to die.

I'd say Brown was just an idiot, who didn't seem to realize that walking in the middle of the street right after a robbery, and getting into a fight with a trigger happy St. Louis cop was probably not a good idea.

Wasn't Brown and his friend walking on the street supposedly something that didn't happen? I mean, on the police side, I thought it was something the prosecutor said didn't happen? I thought the prosecutor's office said the reason Wilson stopped Brown was because he matched the description of the grocery theft (the strong arm robbery we saw on video).

But, if you go by what Officer Wilson said then Brown wanted to die. I think if you accept his side of what happened, then it had to be suicide by cop.

I mean, why would someone who is unarmed come at an armed officer who is firing at them? If he ran towards Wilson who kept firing his gun at him...then Brown wanted to die.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The whole thing about these protests are that not just black people are protesting, but I also saw scores of White folks.

In the eyes of the African American community, many of them probably feel that the Police are like the SS.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Peter King Blames Garner For Dying During Chokehold.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/peter-king-eric-garner_n_6265748.html


Also, anyone who makes the inane argument that "If you can't breathe, then you can't talk" should just be ignored from any conversations about this. People arguing that point are just trolls, I think.

And I saw an intense looking Ex-NYPD officer on CNN last night make a claim like that, as well as make the absurd argument that it wasn't a chokehold. Which...is just, c'mon. The head of the police union in New York looked like a clown for saying that months ago, and nobody took him serious then.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Peter King needs to stick to what he does best: giving us NFL related news and scoops.

(I know, wrong Peter King).

 

[Tempest]

Wasn't Brown and his friend walking on the street supposedly something that didn't happen? I mean, on the police side, I thought it was something the prosecutor said didn't happen? I thought the prosecutor's office said the reason Wilson stopped Brown was because he matched the description of the grocery theft (the strong arm robbery we saw on video).

But, if you go by what Officer Wilson said then Brown wanted to die. I think if you accept his side of what happened, then it had to be suicide by cop.

I mean, why would someone who is unarmed come at an armed officer who is firing at them? If he ran towards Wilson who kept firing his gun at him...then Brown wanted to die.

No. The story has always been that they were walking down the middle of the street. In the very first interview, it was mentioned that Wilson saw them acting suspiciously (i.e. walking in the middle of the road), and realized they were robbery suspects, called for backup, stopped them, then the struggle started.

In the following interviews, Wilson said that they were walking down the center of the street. He stopped to talk to them, realized who they were, called for backup, and then the struggle began.

The entire shooting from start to end is about 7 seconds. It's not a long period of time, and in those moments, Brown may not have realized he'd even been injured.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

No. The story has always been that they were walking down the middle of the street. In the very first interview, it was mentioned that Wilson saw them acting suspiciously (i.e. walking in the middle of the road), and realized they were robbery suspects, called for backup, stopped them, then the struggle started.

In the following interviews, Wilson said that they were walking down the center of the street. He stopped to talk to them, realized who they were, called for backup, and then the struggle began.

The entire shooting from start to end is about 7 seconds. It's not a long period of time, and in those moments, Brown may not have realized he'd even been injured.

Okay, I wasn't sure about the walking in the street and where the police stood on that one.

What do you mean Brown may not have realized he'd been injured? You mean while he was being shot at? I mean...I suppose that's possible...but wouldn't change it being suicidal.

 

[Tempest]

Okay, I wasn't sure about the walking in the street and where the police stood on that one.

What do you mean Brown may not have realized he'd been injured? You mean while he was being shot at? I mean...I suppose that's possible...but wouldn't change it being suicidal.

Well, sometimes when the adrenaline is pumping, you don't realize that you get injured, and a lot of those wounds were not serious (as in incapacitating or life-threatening).

I don't believe any of Brown's actions were suicidal. I think he was caught up in the emotion of the moment. He was supposed to be going to college this fall, right? He may have had scholarship money, or money from family. And he was about to get in trouble for stealing. I think he was purely reacting to the desire to Not Get In Trouble. Disarm the officer, beat him up, and flee, and maybe he wouldn't get caught. I think that's what was going through his mind. It wasn't a good plan, but it's understandable.

It's very sad that things ended the way they did.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, sometimes when the adrenaline is pumping, you don't realize that you get injured, and a lot of those wounds were not serious (as in incapacitating or life-threatening).

I don't believe any of Brown's actions were suicidal. I think he was caught up in the emotion of the moment. He was supposed to be going to college this fall, right? He may have had scholarship money, or money from family. And he was about to get in trouble for stealing. I think he was purely reacting to the desire to Not Get In Trouble. Disarm the officer, beat him up, and flee, and maybe he wouldn't get caught. I think that's what was going through his mind. It wasn't a good plan, but it's understandable.

It's very sad that things ended the way they did.

Sure, I can understand the adrenaline pumping. But, why turn and decide to run straight at an armed officer who is pointing his gun at you? That move, specifically, is suicidal. And, I just don't think it's understandable. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick an argument here or anything, either.

But, I don't see how it shouldn't be considered suicide by cop. Running straight head on towards someone whose pointing and firing a gun? I don't see how someone could do that without being crazy or suicidal.

All I'm saying is, going by Wilson's story...it was suicide by cop. I don't think there's another explanation for Brown's actions, especially running head on into Wilson...who is firing a gun right at him. Wilson said that Brown turned around and ran towards him with a closed fist and a hand in his waistband. Brown wasn't armed. That is suicidal.

 

[Tempest]

You have to remember this isn't just Wilson's story. There are other eyewitnesses that support his statement. And the forensics also support his statement.

I believe that police excessive force is a problem. So please don't think that I am attempting to diminish the issue. However, I really feel that the evidence that is provided in this case supports a lawful use of force.

As for why Brown continued to run at Wilson, we'll never know for sure. I suppose you could call it suicide by cop, but I don't think he intended to die, even if his actions might lead you to think otherwise.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

You have to remember this isn't just Wilson's story. There are other eyewitnesses that support his statement. And the forensics also support his statement.

I believe that police excessive force is a problem. So please don't think that I am attempting to diminish the issue. However, I really feel that the evidence that is provided in this case supports a lawful use of force.

As for why Brown continued to run at Wilson, we'll never know for sure. I suppose you could call it suicide by cop, but I don't think he intended to die, even if his actions might lead you to think otherwise.

My understanding is that the testimonies were all shaky. All of them. It wasn't a courtroom case, either so...whatever.

And I agree, excessive force is a problem. I think the Eric Garner case really drives that home. And I'll say this, if it went down the way Wilson said it did...then it was lawful use. I jut don't believe it.

The only explanation that makes sense is he was either suicidal, or was crazy. I think if Brown ran head on towards Wilson, he'd know he was going to die. There's no way he could think he'd survive that. So much ground between him and Wilson, he's overweight...so he's big target and can't run fast. Making a move like that, he'd know he was a dead man.

Or, he thought he was bulletproof. Either way, it calls Brown's state of mind during and before into question.

 

[Kelly]

The only thing you can do in a case that has 60 eyewitnesses (NO WAY, there were actually 60 eyewitnesses, but ok...) but you take those testimonies that coincide with the forensics of the crime scene. That is pretty much the only thing you can do, especially since eyewitness testimony is always weak as evidence. So you take the testimony of the officer, eye witnesses, autopsy and crime scene forensics and see what matches and what doesn't.

 

[Golgo-13]

Al Sharpton, Louise Farakhan and/or Jesse Jackson could squash this rioting in a second, but they see more money making opportunities if they sit back, let the drama unfold and then get paid for all the media circuits, press, etc that is sure to follow.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

My understanding is that the testimonies were all shaky. All of them. It wasn't a courtroom case, either so...whatever.

And I agree, excessive force is a problem. I think the Eric Garner case really drives that home. And I'll say this, if it went down the way Wilson said it did...then it was lawful use. I jut don't believe it.

The only explanation that makes sense is he was either suicidal, or was crazy. I think if Brown ran head on towards Wilson, he'd know he was going to die. There's no way he could think he'd survive that. So much ground between him and Wilson, he's overweight...so he's big target and can't run fast. Making a move like that, he'd know he was a dead man.

Or, he thought he was bulletproof. Either way, it calls Brown's state of mind during and before into question.

It may have been pure bravado. Brown thought he could later brag to his friends about rushing and disarming a cop.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Eric Garner situation is one of the most ridiculous I can remember reading about. There is just no accountability. If you wear a badge, you apparently allowed to kill with impunity. And then people wonder why the citizens of Ferguson reacted the way they did over their situation. We see an actual murder on film, with something illegal for a cop to do and it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. Trust cops, do what they say, the law will find justice. Yeah, because that seems to be working out.

 

[Tempest]

My understanding is that the testimonies were all shaky. All of them. It wasn't a courtroom case, either so...whatever.

And I agree, excessive force is a problem. I think the Eric Garner case really drives that home. And I'll say this, if it went down the way Wilson said it did...then it was lawful use. I jut don't believe it.

The only explanation that makes sense is he was either suicidal, or was crazy. I think if Brown ran head on towards Wilson, he'd know he was going to die. There's no way he could think he'd survive that. So much ground between him and Wilson, he's overweight...so he's big target and can't run fast. Making a move like that, he'd know he was a dead man.

Or, he thought he was bulletproof. Either way, it calls Brown's state of mind during and before into question.

No eye witness testimony is going to be perfect. As Kelly said, when considering any case, you have to look at the evidence as a whole.

And I will pick a bone with you over the grand jury. They heard EVERY piece of evidence, and there was no defense case. So everyone who keeps saying that Wilson was able to defend himself by wiggling around the truth...no. The defense does not get to argue at all in a grand jury. And as I said, all evidence was there, and the grand jury was able to request things that many juries are not allowed to see.

In many ways, this was better than a trial.

The Eric Garner situation is one of the most ridiculous I can remember reading about. There is just no accountability. If you wear a badge, you apparently allowed to kill with impunity. And then people wonder why the citizens of Ferguson reacted the way they did over their situation. We see an actual murder on film, with something illegal for a cop to do and it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. Trust cops, do what they say, the law will find justice. Yeah, because that seems to be working out.

Ok, more nitpicking. What we witnessed on the tape was a homicide. Not murder. Murder requires intent to do harm. What we saw were police who were reckless with someone's life...but there is never a sign from any of them that the intended outcome was for Eric Garner to die.

Also, I do want to point out in both Eric Garner and Michael Brown's case, they both resisted the officers. Neither of them actually followed what the officers were asking them to do. So your statement is factually untrue.

Now, before you get mad, I am not saying that either man deserved to die, or that the outcome of resisting arrest should be death.

I do agree that I feel the grand jury was wrong in not indicting the officer of at least manslaughter. Intent to harm or not, there was reckless regard for Garner's safety.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The words "Thank You for your service" is something people should not longer say to the police if this keeps up. That phrase should only be reserved for military and firefighters.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Al Sharpton, Louise Farakhan and/or Jesse Jackson could squash this rioting in a second, but they see more money making opportunities if they sit back, let the drama unfold and then get paid for all the media circuits, press, etc that is sure to follow.

I really doubt those three could screw in a lightbulb together, much less stop a riot.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Al Sharpton, Louise Farakhan and/or Jesse Jackson could squash this rioting in a second, but they see more money making opportunities if they sit back, let the drama unfold and then get paid for all the media circuits, press, etc that is sure to follow.

And Jackson was once a follower of MLK.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Peter King Blames Garner For Dying During Chokehold.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/peter-king-eric-garner_n_6265748.html


Also, anyone who makes the inane argument that "If you can't breathe, then you can't talk" should just be ignored from any conversations about this. People arguing that point are just trolls, I think.

And I saw an intense looking Ex-NYPD officer on CNN last night make a claim like that, as well as make the absurd argument that it wasn't a chokehold. Which...is just, c'mon. The head of the police union in New York looked like a clown for saying that months ago, and nobody took him serious then.

Peter King is the type of guy who says "I'm not racist, I have a ton of black friends!"

 

[Herolee10]

It's times like this where I wish we did have someone like Batman or Daredevil in real life.lol

Man, honestly I doubt anything big will change until something big happens.; at least, that's the way it normally goes in history.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ok, more nitpicking. What we witnessed on the tape was a homicide. Not murder. Murder requires intent to do harm. What we saw were police who were reckless with someone's life...but there is never a sign from any of them that the intended outcome was for Eric Garner to die.

Also, I do want to point out in both Eric Garner and Michael Brown's case, they both resisted the officers. Neither of them actually followed what the officers were asking them to do. So your statement is factually untrue.

Now, before you get mad, I am not saying that either man deserved to die, or that the outcome of resisting arrest should be death.

I do agree that I feel the grand jury was wrong in not indicting the officer of at least manslaughter. Intent to harm or not, there was reckless regard for Garner's safety.

He used a chokehold that is banned. How is that not intent to do harm?

And I am done with the excuse that someone was "resisting". He wasn't fighting them. He was being harassed by cops and then they physically assaulted. Having a badge does not make that legal.

 

[SuperJediHero]

When you have a video clearly show the man choked to death by the police, no matter what, the police officer need to go to trial and face some kind of justice.

I don't think he intended to be a racist or killed the man, but a mistake was made. A death happened as the result of a mistake.

This isn't an issue about race, but an issue of a death that didn't need to happen!

It DOESN'T matter what race you are, but when a death that didn't need to happen, the offender MUST BE held responsible!


Involuntary Manslaughter is probably what this cop should got.




Hate to say this, but this future of America is going to SO become a "I DON'T want to be a police" nation.




Who wants to be a cop anymore? Just watch. The way many people are hating police now, is going to have consequences.


That Robocop situation that we don't want? That's becoming much more of a reality, sadly.


All these damn protestors blocking traffic, do they have any clue/idea what's it like to be a police? Or HOW DANGEROUS some of the criminals are? The two most important questions for them I have is, "Do you want to be a police yourself? And what would you do if you see a criminal with a gun?" And I bet most of them will say "NO!" and the latter response "I will talk to the criminal to reason with him" probably. *SIGH*

 

[SuperJediHero]

BTW, we don't have a separate Eric Garner thread on it's own?

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It may have been pure bravado. Brown thought he could later brag to his friends about rushing and disarming a cop.

So then he must have been crazy...

And I will pick a bone with you over the grand jury. They heard EVERY piece of evidence, and there was no defense case. So everyone who keeps saying that Wilson was able to defend himself by wiggling around the truth...no. The defense does not get to argue at all in a grand jury. And as I said, all evidence was there, and the grand jury was able to request things that many juries are not allowed to see.

In many ways, this was better than a trial.

How could it have been better than a trial?

Wilson had the prosecution on his side, and Wilson not filling out a report (which is, to my understanding, supposed to be protocol in most police shooting) seems like it could have been a benefit.

My point, however, was that it wasn't a court case the way most people would consider it. People think of a two sided argument, when it was just a one sided argument.

He used a chokehold that is banned. How is that not intent to do harm?

And I am done with the excuse that someone was "resisting". He wasn't fighting them. He was being harassed by cops and then they physically assaulted. Having a badge does not make that legal.

Yeah, which is makes the lying from the NYPD union leader...and numerous people making the stupid argument that it wasn't a chokehold (or maybe these people don't know what a chokehold is?). And yeah, he wasn't resisting.

I mean, the most shocking thing about this is you have a civilian that can be murdered on camera...and there's not even a trial. He doesn't even get fired.

Killing an innocent civilian doesn't seem to be a reason to get fired by the NYPD...

 

[SuperJediHero]

Eric Garner had a fact, a video. But Michael Brown's case, is not the same. No video/facts that we can know for sure, and may never will. Things like this is just unfortunate. So you have to consider all angles with a lot of open mind. I think the sad part is a lot of people are just too closed minded to think anything other than their judgment.


The most you can do as a reasonable man is to go with forensic and ballistic evidences that they are saying all collaborated with Wilson's side! And, THAT is what I am going to believe in until there is a counter-fact there.