Riots in Missouri - Part 2

[chaseter]

So racism is the fault of minorities?

I really don't follow you. How is telling children that the system is stacked against them due to racism a self fulfilling prophecy? How does them understanding the inherent disadvantages in the system bring them into existence?

How does any minority succeed if the system is built against them? This isn't 1960. Why people keep spouting out how we still are separate but equal is ignorant. But, so be it if that's the world you tell yourself you live in. Racism will always exist and does in every race/creed/culture. But, tell your children how they are lesser in the eyes of the laws and the majority. Create the next generation of bigots.

 

[The Question]

How does any minority succeed if the system is built against them? This isn't 1960.

By taking advantage of what the system does offering them and also a whole lot of luck. Yes, some minorities manage to be very successful and even wealthy, but a wildly disproportionate number of them are not. And even successful minorities still face bigotry on a daily basis. Female politicians are constantly questioned because they are women, Barack Obama gets a disproportionate amount of flack from conservatives despite being the most conservative Democratic President in a long time and in fact being more conservative than Reagan on several key issues, and you constantly hear about successful and respected women and persons of color who still have to deal with bigoted micro-aggressions and inconveniences on a daily basis.

Why people keep spouting out how we still are separate but equal is ignorant. But, so be it if that's the world you tell yourself you live in.

Non-whites are more likely to live in poverty, less likely to be accepted into college or a job, more likely to be on the receiving end of police brutality, and much more likely to serve longer and harsher jail sentences than whites who's skills and circumstances are otherwise equal. School districts are drawn in such a way that effectively segregates most public schools and favors predominantly white schools while hurting predominantly non-white schools in terms of funding. There are tons of laws that disproportionately target and punish minority communities even though the crimes in question are effectively equal. These are facts. This is the world that we all live in.

Racism will always exist and does in every race/creed/culture. But, tell your children how they are lesser in the eyes of the laws and the majority. Create the next generation of bigots.

Because understanding the inherent inequalities in our society is bigoted. Yes, that makes total sense.

 

[Moridin]

Please tell me when caucasian people have EVER experienced oppression and racism.

I'll wait...

Really? Even just in America many tens-of-thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of Irish, Scottish and others were held in slavery.

I don't know if you know, but there were actual black slave owners in America, too. They weren't all white.

Just google "Irish Ape" or "Irish Subhuman" or "Irish/Scottish slave" and have a history lesson.

Look up how the English viewed the Irish as a seperate, subhuman race, and how that attitude carried over to America.

 

[chaseter]

The only system inherit to oppression in this country is wealth.

 

[The Question]

Really? Even just in America many tens-of-thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of Irish, Scottish and others were held in slavery.

Just google "Irish Ape" or "Irish Subhuman" or "Irish/Scottish slave" and have a history lesson.

Look up how the English viewed the Irish as a seperate, subhuman race, and how that attitude carried over to America.

Yes. And they suffered that oppression because they were foreign or because they practiced a minority religion (or both). SuperT is talking about white people as a group facing oppression for being white, something which has never happened in the United States and has really only occurred in a very tiny handful of incidents in some post-colonial African countries. And even then the situation is a lot murkier than usual.

 

[The Question]

The only system inherit to oppression in this country is wealth.

And yet non-white people are disproportionately more likely to be poor and white people are disproportionately more likely to be wealthy.

 

[chaseter]

By taking advantage of what the system does offering them and also a whole lot of luck. Yes, some minorities manage to be very successful and even wealthy, but a wildly disproportionate number of them are not. And even successful minorities still face bigotry on a daily basis.

Saying it's luck takes away the ingenuity, hard work, and planning. You just said most minorities success in this country is not by any measure but luck.

Poverty is not a racist system. It's socioeconomic...not this topic. There are more poor Caucasians than any other minority in this country.

We aren't talking about gender equality either.

This isn't 1960. Anyone can do anything they want in this country. They will meet racists and bigots along the way from all sides but there is nothing stopping them but themselves from achieving and succeeding.

 

[The Question]

Saying it's luck takes away the ingenuity, hard work, and planning. You just said most minorities success in this country is not by any measure but luck.

Most of anyone's success in this country is because of luck. You have to be lucky enough to be born with natural talents, lucky enough to be born into a family with money, lucky enough to be born in a nice neighborhood with a good school, lucky enough to encounter once-in-a-lifetime opportunities to pull yourself up to a higher station if you weren't born into money or a good environment, lucky enough to win that scholarship, lucky enough to get into that good school, lucky enough to know a guy who knows a guy who can hook you up with a job, and so on and so on. So much of anyone's success or failure is the result of pure dumb luck. Ingenuity hard work and planning are great, but they can only take you so far and they're nowhere near as powerful as pure random happenstance.

Poverty is not a racist system. It's socioeconomic...not this topic. There are more poor Caucasians than any other minority in this country.

9.9% of white people live in poverty. Over 24% of black people live in poverty. Clearly, poverty effects black people more than white people. A wildly disproportionate number of wealthy Americans are white. Poverty is a socioeconomic system and a racist system.

We aren't talking about gender equality either.

How is it irrelevant? It's an example of inequality in our society and how it persists.

 

[SuperT]

The only system inherit to oppression in this country is wealth.

And who controls a majority of the wealth in this country?

 

[Erzengel]

9.9% of white people live in poverty. Over 24% of black people live in poverty. Clearly, poverty effects black people more than white people. A wildly disproportionate number of wealthy Americans are white. Poverty is a socioeconomic system and a racist system.

There's like 220 million white people and 38 million black people in the US approximately.

10% of 20 million is more white people in poverty than 24% of black people unless you are talking more about percentages?

 

[SuperT]

9.9% of white people live in poverty. Over 24% of black people live in poverty.

That number is even more chilling when you learn that African-Americans only make up 13.2% of the American population compared to Caucasian-Americans 77.7%

 

[The Question]

There's like 220 million white people and 38 million black people in the US approximately.

10% of 20 million is more white people in poverty than 24% of black people unless you are talking more about percentages?

Well, yeah. I was using percentages, so of course I'm talking about percentages.

If poverty did not disproportionately effect African Americans then the rate would be the same. True equality would mean that the various rates of poverty, income, causes of death, and so on would be functionally the same across the board. The only reason there are more poor white people is that there are more white people in general.

 

[cronosred]

Yes. And they suffered that oppression because they were foreign or because they practiced a minority religion (or both). SuperT is talking about white people as a group facing oppression for being white, something which has never happened in the United States and has really only occurred in a very tiny handful of incidents in some post-colonial African countries. And even then the situation is a lot murkier than usual.

Oppression is oppression.

 

[The Question]

Oppression is oppression.

Yes. And?

 

[Howlett]

Oppression is oppression.

It really is. You could say black people weren't oppressed because of the color of their skin, but because they were foreigners too. Or because they were sold and became property. Or because "insert rationalization for oppression here."

 

[cronosred]

Yes. And?

One is not more important than the other. One is not worse than the other.

 

[The Question]

One is not more important than the other. One is not worse than the other.

Tow claims that I never made. What's your point?

 

[DeadPresident]

Yes. And?

This is beyond comical now. If you want people to take the plight of African Americans seriously you might want to try not undermining their struggles either. Otherwise it just becomes every in-group for themselves, let me know when you've wrested control of the country from the same whites you're trying to mobilise for your cause.

 

[The Question]

This is beyond comical now. If you want people to take the plight of African Americans seriously you might want to try not undermining their struggles either. Otherwise it just becomes every in-group for themselves, let me know when you've wrested control of the country from the same whites you're trying to mobilise for your cause.

In what way have I been undermining anyone's struggles? I never said that the struggles of Irish immigrants didn't happen or didn't matter. I said that white people as a group have never been oppressed for being white, which is true and which is a very important fact to recognize when you're quantifying the inherent power imbalances in our society.

 

[cronosred]

In what way have I been undermining anyone's struggles? I never said that the struggles of Irish immigrants didn't happen or didn't matter. I said that white people as a group have never been oppressed for being white, which is true and which is a very important fact to recognize when you're quantifying the inherent power imbalances in our society.

And how do we know how greatly their situation has improved or hasn't?

 

[Howlett]

In what way have I been undermining anyone's struggles? I never said that the struggles of Irish immigrants didn't happen or didn't matter. I said that white people as a group have never been oppressed for being white, which is true and which is a very important fact to recognize when you're quantifying the inherent power imbalances in our society.

It's not true and you can say it as many times as you want but that will never make it true. Your focus on skin color is really bizarre as to your reasoning why oppression is more important over one group than another. And yes, that is what you have been saying.

Ok then, lets say black people have never been oppressed for being black either. It was because they were foreigners. Easily identifiable foreigners who happened to be purchased.

You don't think Irish people have/had identifying features that they were discriminated against for? Red hair, freckles, very pale? Skin color is not the only factor in oppression, and you're really showing your true colors here.

 

[The Question]

And how do we know how greatly their situation has improved or hasn't?

Rates of incarceration, rates of unemployment, rates of poverty, rates and causes of death, the effects of laws that target certain communities, the extent to which past problems have actually changed and in what ways they have changed, and so on. Like, there's a whole system based around determining a person or group's quality of life and upward mobility. The numbers are readily available. When the number one cause of death for black men under the age of 35 is homicide, I think it's pretty indisputable that minority communities experience life in this country very differently from white people.

 

[The Question]

It's not true and you can say it as many times as you want but that will never make it true. Your focus on skin color is really bizarre as to your reasoning why oppression is more important over one group than another. And yes, that is what you have been saying.

No, it really isn't what I have been saying. You're making a pretty blatant straw man argument right now.

Ok then, lets say black people have never been oppressed for being black either. It was because they were foreigners. Easily identifiable foreigners who happened to be purchased.

But that's not what happened.

You don't think Irish people have/had identifying features that they were discriminated against for? Red hair, freckles, very pale? Skin color is not the only factor in oppression, and you're really showing your true colors here.

I never said that they didn't have identifying features. I just said that they weren't discriminated against for being white. How is that a controversial statement?

 

[DeadPresident]

In what way have I been undermining anyone's struggles? I never said that the struggles of Irish immigrants didn't happen or didn't matter. I said that white people as a group have never been oppressed for being white, which is true and which is a very important fact to recognize when you're quantifying the inherent power imbalances in our society.

Yes. And they suffered that oppression because they were foreign or because they practiced a minority religion (or both). SuperT is talking about white people as a group facing oppression for being white, something which has never happened in the United States and has really only occurred in a very tiny handful of incidents in some post-colonial African countries. And even then the situation is a lot murkier than usual.

All you and SuperT have been doing is shooting down incidents of racism and prejudice people have brought up after he/she made the claim about whites "never" having been victims of oppression, conveniently shifting the semantic goalposts as you go along. All under the guise of this fallacy that because whites were oppressive and that real remnants of that oppression remain there is somehow something intrinsic to "whiteness" that's the end all and be all cause.

The pathetic part is all it required for the conversation to go into a more constructive direction is "I'm not saying other people haven't been oppressed, I'm just saying...". But instead you rebuke all responses with rhetoric about why your struggle is so much more important than anyone else's.

The thing that's even more pathetic is that you somehow think prejudice due to skin color is somehow morally superior to any other kind, seemingly. So gay teenagers bullied into suicide, Irish immigrants being viewed as "second class" in the 19th century, Native Americans being exterminated, etc are "just" incidents of homophobia or cultural prejudice, which are bad...but not that
bad right? But oppression based on skin color, now that's evil.

Edit: Of course you'll now accuse me of a "straw man" too, asking for incidents where you mentioned anything of the sort. I could go and find your posts implying that you weren't discussing all oppression, just oppression based on skin color. Your emphasis of that also implies that it's more important. Then you'll respond with "But where did I say it's more important?", and we'll die old and grey going back and forth on this bull****. Good luck affecting any kind of change man, the odds are definitely in your favor.

 

[The Question]

All you and SuperT have been doing is shooting down incidents of racism and prejudice people have brought up after he/she made the claim about whites "never" have been victims of oppression, conveniently shifting the semantic goalposts as you go along. All under the guise of this fallacy that because whites were oppressive and that real remnants of that oppression remain there is somehow something intrinsic to "whiteness" that's the end all and be all cause.

The pathetic part is all it required for the conversation to go into a more constructive direction is "I'm not saying other people haven't been oppressed, I'm just saying...". But instead you rebuke all responses with rhetoric about why your struggle is so much more important than anyone else's.

The thing that's even more pathetic is that you somehow think prejudice due to skin color is somehow morally superior to any other kind, seemingly. So gay teenagers bullied into suicide, Irish immigrants being viewed as "second class" in the 19th century, Native Americans being exterminated, etc are "just" incidents of homophobia or cultural prejudice, which are bad...but not that
bad right? But oppression based on skin color, now that's evil.

I never said any of this. I never said that the Irish weren't oppressed, I never said that prejudice based on skin color was worse than prejudice based on anything else, and I have never said anything even remotely close to the notion that there is somehow something intrinsically oppressive to whiteness.

I said that white people, as a group, have never been oppressed for being white people, and therefor whiteness has never been a disadvantage in society.

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Edit: Of course you'll now accuse me of a "straw man" too, asking for incidents where you mentioned anything of the sort. I could go and find your posts implying that you weren't discussing all oppression, just oppression based on skin color. Your emphasis of that also implies that it's more important. Then you'll respond with "But where did I say it's more important?", and we'll die old and grey going back and forth on this bull****. Good luck affecting any kind of change man, the odds are definitely in your favor.

And it isn't possible that you simply misinterpreted my statements? Because you very clearly did.