Riots in Missouri - Part 3

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Do you equate a methodically planned execution of 2 police officers to 2 isolated incidents of police interactions with criminals that led to their unfortunate deaths? While one of those deaths (Garner) undoubtedly could and should have been avoided, both of those deaths occurred after a chain of events unfolded and due to the suspects' resistance of arrest. You obviously feel that the justice system failed in the Brown and Garner cases, but that hardly makes those deaths and these murders apple to apples.

So far, the protests and riots have not sparked any kind of change, and the "awareness" that has been raised has mainly served to incite anger and disrespect towards police officers in general. I don't consider that progress.

Well...to be fair, you're the one that made the comparisons first. I agree it's not an apples to apples comparison, but you made it seem like you thought so with the previous post.

I think his point was about the killer being dead, and how there's some justice with his death.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/20/new-york-police-union-mayor_n_6361046.html

Pat Lynch, Chief of the New York Police Union, Blames Protesters and Mayor

"There's blood on many hands tonight," NYC Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association president Pat Lynch said Saturday night, ratcheting up already frigid tensions between City Hall and One Police Plaza.

Lynch blamed those who "incited violence on the street under the guise of protest," -- a reference to the swell of demonstrations in New York City and across the U.S. in the wake of a grand jury decision to not indict a New York police officer for killing an unarmed black man, Eric Garner, earlier this fall.

Lynch then went after Mayor de Blasio: "That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall, in the office of the mayor." He went on to praise the fallen officers, and said that those responsible for the killing will be held responsible.

I have a feeling things are going to get worse before they get better. Lynch is effectively telling NYPD officers that the Mayor and protesters are to blame. And him saying that those responsible will be held responsible is a little odd to me, because the killer is already dead.

It's worth mentioning that Lynch is...kind of an ass. He was the first person I've seen that purported the notion that Garner was never put in a chokehold, which is a lie. But, Lynch also made an attempt to use the funerals of police officers as a political football. A few weeks ago, he started circulating a petition with NYPD officers to try and get Mayor de Blasio banned from visiting ANY funeral of slain officers. Something that really seemed disgusting, to me.

I can also tell you, as a New York resident, that Mayor de Blasio has kinda always had issues with the police commissioner and NYPD leaders (like Lynch) since even before being in office, because a part of his mayoral campaign was his stance against "stop, frisk, and search", an NYPD mandate that was pretty ****ed up.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I believe the point TheSHAPE was making was this.....there is a difference between (1) someone doing something that can be construed as wrong, being confronted by the police, and over the course of some minutes of arguing about it, the situation somehow degrades to the point that the police shoot the person, and (2) walking up to a couple of cops sitting in their car and without saying anything opening fire upon them.

To make the killings of the two police officers equal to the killings of unarmed black men....you would have had to have had cops walking upon unarmed black men sitting on a bench doing nothing at all, being accused of nothing at all, and not interacting with the cops in any way at all....and then being shot by the cops.

I think the biggest problem is the way the cops act about it. Every shooting, no matter how insane, gets defended in the harshest manner. The 12 year old with a fake gun deserved what he got. How dare anyone protest against the police. No apologizes, no remorse, just justification and about how the living cops have it hard.

When police representatives are publicly threatening pro sports teams and their players because they dare protest, what do people expect?

Does this make the joy over the death of these two police officers right? Not at all. But the police are breeding this resentment.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I read somewhere that most African Americans see cops the same way as the Jews saw the SS, minus the roundup to extermination camps.

 

[Ilikecomics123]

I think the biggest problem is the way the cops act about it. Every shooting, no matter how insane, gets defended in the harshest manner. The 12 year old with a fake gun deserved what he got. How dare anyone protest against the police. No apologizes, no remorse, just justification and about how the living cops have it hard.

When police representatives are publicly threatening pro sports teams and their players because they dare protest, what do people expect?

Does this make the joy over the death of these two police officers right? Not at all. But the police are breeding this resentment.

I don't know any cops that would say "the 12 year old with the fake (but highly realistic looking) gun got what he deserved"... no officer I know or any police article I've read has said anything like that. Every officer I know (especially me) would be very upset at the idea of having to take a child's life.

Find me the cop that said "he got what he deserved"... I want to see it.

On the matter of children committing crimes...

(and this is not a response to the 12-year-old/Cleveland case, just something I want to point out...)

Children ARE criminals. Let me just put that out there.

The media does not AT ALL show the extent of criminal activity that CHILDREN commit on a daily basis. So when the media does report of "cop kills suspect, suspect only 15 yrs old", the public is outraged that a cop had to resort to deadly force on a child... and as sad as it is... the public needs to wake up and realize that children commit crimes.

Case in point...

Today at work...

Carjacking. Several suspects arrived in a vehicle that had been previously reported as a vehicle taken in an armed carjacking. The suspects arrived and one suspect exits their vehicle, points a gun at a victim's face, demands their car keys, and carjacks that victim's vehicle. All suspects then left in now TWO carjacked vehicles.

Hours later, we find one of the two vehicles (the second one taken)... 6 suspects in the vehicle... all bail out... 4 of the 6 are apprehended after short foot chases between suspects/cops.

Guess what?

All teenagers.

So when you're a cop, and you go to work and this is the stuff you face.... yes, very sad to have to think of killing a child.... but unfortunately, teenagers are out there doing this stuff.

Welcome to the world of children with no fathers, no respect, no guidance, and no rules....

Later that day...

We get a call for children with guns at the McDonalds... scaring everybody inside the store...

We get there.

Four kids (the suspects) inside the McDonalds. They are ages 10-12...

Luckily, nothing is really happening inside the McDonalds when we (officers) arrive, so we're able to just talk to the suspects.

One of them, the 10 year old, has a fake gun tucked inside his waistband and covered by his shirt... gun looks real, but once you inspect it you can tell its a toy. He didn't do anything with it with officers on-scene, so we retrieve it from his waistband and confiscate it... no one gets hurt and we can calmly de-escalate the situation....

and how do the 10-12 year olds act towards officers when we explain to them how dangerous their actions are? and when officers try to get them to understand that people will get scared and call 911 when they try to emulate "gangsters" with guns tucked in their waistbands...

they respond with attitudes, contempt, and blow us off like we're all a bunch of a$$hole cops.

They'd rather be gangsters and emulate what they see on the streets than listen to the wisdom of a police officer (who is just a logical thinking, law-abiding person)

My point with these two examples is to try to shed some light on something every cop knows, but the media will not emphasize.... KIDS COMMIT VIOLENT CRIMES ... so as sad as it may be that a cop has to take down a kid, it's a reality cops are aware of.

But the community shows very little outrage...

I'm 31 yrs old, and not a parent yet, but one day, when I have a teenage son... if I EVER found out he was riding around in a vehicle that was taken in an ARMED CARJACKING... Oh, I'd kill him myself.

But these kids don't have parents. I'm not stereotyping or being racist. I'm just stating what I see every day at work... most of these kids have NO FATHER... and mom is usually SO YOUNG that she's a child herself and cannot raise them properly. It's literally like watching MTV's "16 and Pregnant" all day every day. The mom's are completely clueless and are kids themselves and act like children.

So think about what it does to not just a cop but a person in general when you become a police officer to help people, and then you realize even the kids don't want your help. All we're trying to do is explain to them (for their own safety) why you shouldn't be in a McDonalds with a real-looking-toy-gun tucked inside your waistband.... and they tell us to screw off....

It's very disheartening. Oh, but I forgot... cops are the bad guys.

 

[Victarion]

I think the biggest problem is the way the cops act about it. Every shooting, no matter how insane, gets defended in the harshest manner. The 12 year old with a fake gun deserved what he got. How dare anyone protest against the police. No apologizes, no remorse, just justification and about how the living cops have it hard.

When police representatives are publicly threatening pro sports teams and their players because they dare protest, what do people expect?

Does this make the joy over the death of these two police officers right? Not at all. But the police are breeding this resentment.

Well, so long as ignorance, bigotry, and the collective intellectual maturity of a toddler run rampant in American society, the good cops do have it tough. It is rarely you see the distinction being made. I suppose its because considering that we as humans are easily capable of good and evil is too prickly a notion for the American populace at large. And so we see instances where all ________ are bad, evil , what have you with no questions asked.

The bad cops are breeding this resentment, but we can't blame one without blaming the others who chose to respond with all the maturity of a spoiled child.

 

[The Question]

Well, so long as ignorance, bigotry, and the collective intellectual maturity of a toddler run rampant in American society, the good cops do have it tough. It is rarely you see the distinction being made. I suppose its because considering that we as humans are easily capable of good and evil is too prickly a notion for the American populace at large. And so we see instances where all ________ are bad, evil , what have you with no questions asked.

The bad cops are breeding this resentment, but we can't blame one without blaming the others who chose to respond with all the maturity of a spoiled child.

The problem isn't a few bad apples doing bad things. The problem is a system that lets them get away with it and protocols and a culture that bring out the worst in good people.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It is rather hard to argue that black people should have a positive view of law enforcement.

 

[Ilikecomics123]

The problem isn't a few bad apples doing bad things. The problem is a system that lets them get away with it and protocols and a culture that bring out the worst in good people.

Jesus...

I wish you'd sit in a courtroom in a high crime jurisdiction presiding over criminal cases and watch and see how many people charged with crimes get off with absolutely no consequences for things they certainly did....

Yet one or two cops get off on recent cases you feel they shouldn't have and you think the system is rigged in their favor....

What.

Ever.

.....

 

[Schlosser85]

If we're gonna be stereotypical, one could say the same about law enforcement having a positive view of black people.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Judging by the amount of abuse, I think it's safe to say they don't.

 

[Feenix]

Broad strokes.

 

[Schlosser85]

Broad strokes.

Isn't that what 99% of the discussion in this thread is?

 

[Victarion]

The problem isn't a few bad apples doing bad things. The problem is a system that lets them get away with it and protocols and a culture that bring out the worst in good people.

I think its more to do with the people that chose to let the protocols/culture act as catalysts for their actions. At the end of the day, the fault ultimately lies with people that decide to throw away what's moral within...See my signature.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, it's not like there's a country-wide conflict going on between police and the black community right now. And there certainly wasn't a century of systematic discrimination by the police against black people.

America's police forces have a lot of blood on their hands. More than most. And I don't just mean Bull Connor and Southern Police killing black people in the street. For centuries the police enforced unfair, and brutal laws against black people, rather willingly.

To any black person with a sense of history there is no greater, more vicious enemy to the African American than law enforcement.

This is just a legacy of that.

 

[Feenix]

I went on a ride along with the local police department and it opened my eyes to the kind of **** they deal with on a daily basis.

What people don't seem to realize is that the distrust between law enforcement and certain black communities is a two way street. Blame lies on both sides.

At this point, even if police officers tried to be more helpful in the communities (however you would describe helpful) it's not like they would be met with positivity.

When you respond to the same calls on a daily basis and deal with the same people who don't want to help themselves, why would anyone bother trying to force help on them? They're cynical and I don't blame them. These issues run much deeper than law enforcement.

 

[The Question]

D

Jesus...

I wish you'd sit in a courtroom in a high crime jurisdiction presiding over criminal cases and watch and see how many people charged with crimes get off with absolutely no consequences for things they certainly did....

Yet one or two cops get off on recent cases you feel they shouldn't have and you think the system is rigged in their favor....

What.

Ever.

.....

Were these people caught on film strangling a man to death?

Were these people brought before a grand jury that decided not to indite them? Not convict them of a crime, simply indite them, even though grand juries almost always hand down indigtmrnts and almost always decide the way the prosecutor wants them to.

And it's not just one or two cases. The two most recent cases sparked the debate, but this has been going on for so much longer. So many cases of officers abusing their power and not facing any consequences. So many instances of officers using military style hardware or an inappropriate amount of force in situations where it is completely uncalled for and end up shooting pets, children, angled elderly citizens. So many studies and so much data that shows that police violence disproportionately effects minorities and that police officers that use excessive force against minorities are less likely to face consequences than officers who used excessive force against whites. The numbers are there. The stories are there. It's all there.

So don't say "whatever" just because this problem doesn't effect you.

 

[Schlosser85]

You do realize there are black cops, right?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just saying most of it is with the police, who have taken advantage of the latter for well, ever, and continue to treat them as second-class citizens.

Hell, you'll note I even give Wilson the benefit of the doubt.

 

[The Question]

I think its more to do with the people that chose to let the protocols/culture act as catalysts for their actions. At the end of the day, the fault ultimately lies with people that decide to throw away what's moral within...See my signature.

1: So are you just going to ignore the fact that police who abuse their power often don't face consequences? That systemic problem doesn'tatter to you?

2: Are you suggest that police officers simply ignore protocols that encourage and call for aggressive and callous behavior? Why not do away with those protocols?

 

[Thundercrack85]

You do realize there are black cops, right?

Yes. But that doesn't change the legacy of the racist American police state that existed officially until the 1960's for black people.

 

[The Question]

You do realize there are black cops, right?

Yes, I am aware of that. I never indicated that I wasn't

 

[cronosred]

It is rather hard to argue that black people should have a positive view of law enforcement.

Join the force and start changing things.

 

[The Question]

Join the force and start changing things.

Except for the fact that doing so usually doesn't work.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Join the force and start changing things.

That's a start, but it's not enough.