The Last Jedi Rotten tomatoes score?

[KRYPTON INC.]

1. Critics love "bold" choices. Deconstructing a myth or characters is something that is getting a lot of praises.
2. The story in TLJ is decent enough to not hurt the movie enough from a critical standpoint.
3. The visuals, sound and music are amazing.
4. The acting is fine for the most part and outstanding for some.
5. The only thing to bring this movie down from a critical point of view is the pacing. But not enough to give it a score that would qualify it as rotten.

1,2 and 5 are the things some fans disliked. Thats were the discourse between some fans and the critics stem from.

On a further note for the US and some other english speaking countries. Critics like diverse casts and a political message. But that is for the most part very much limited to the US. It is something that does not get a lot of attention anywhere else.

Those are all rather... Vague.

Tell me WHY in your view is it wrong or incorrect to enjoy "bold" choices or at least the "bold" choices of TLJ, as you say the critics did?

Why is the story in TLJ in your opinion only "decent" and why did it only being decent translate into praise by the critics, or at least why was it's decency if you will, enough for the critics to recommend the film?

Again, why is the pacing so much more of an issue to the fans than the critics? I might remind you that not all the critics make a point of bringing up pacing issues, even when say, talking about the casino planet portion of the film as not being something seen as a plus?

 

[Reaver027]

Those are all rather... Vague.

Tell me WHY in your view is it wrong or incorrect to enjoy "bold" choices or at least the "bold" choices of TLJ, as you say the critics did?

Why is the story in TLJ in your opinion only "decent" and why did it only being decent translate into praise by the critics, or at least why was it's decency if you will, enough for the critics to recommend the film?

Again, why is the pacing so much more of an issue to the fans than the critics? I might remind you that not all the critics make a point of bringing up pacing issues, even when say, talking about the casino planet portion of the film as not being something seen as a plus?

It is not wrong to like it. But it is something that gets a lot of praise. And it is something some fans disliked a lot.

The story got a lot of plotholes. Those serve the plot so they can be overlooked by critics. A fan that got much bigger problems with plotholes is nothing new.

I don't think there is a disconnect between fans and critics when we look at the pacing. But the pacing alone is not enough to trash the movie for a critic.

The fans that did not like the movie disliked multiple points in the movie that lead to the bad fan reviews. Critics did not.

 

[Bobber]

It is not wrong to like it. But it is something that gets a lot of praise. And it is something some fans disliked a lot.

The story got a lot of plotholes. Those serve the plot so they can be overlooked by critics. A fan that got much bigger problems with plotholes is nothing new.

I don't think there is a disconnect between fans and critics when we look at the pacing. But the pacing alone is not enough to trash the movie for a critic.

The fans that did not like the movie disliked multiple points in the movie that lead to the bad fan reviews. Critics did not.

I'd argue that a critic has just as much (if not more) reason to ram a movie for bad pacing.

What are all these plotholes that people talk about? I'm sure they're there, I'd just like to hear about it.

 

[jmc]

I had the same experience with The Dark Knight Rises with regards to critics. The thing both TDKR and TLJ have in common is they are well crafted movies where some really dumb **** happens, and for a lot of people that stuff is forgiveable because the rest of the film is good. I do think there’s an argument to be made that film critics reward boldness more than they do execution because they watch so many films each year and anything that breaks the rules in creativity is often welcomed, even if it doesn’t quite hit the mark it’s setting out for. Fans and audiences in general I feel don’t really care as much for boldness if it comes at the cost of execution.

You’ve also got to look at how both the fans and critics look at these things. One is going to look at the film on its own more than the other who looks at the entire series of films as one big collective story with an overarching narrative and established rules that have been set by previous films. TLD may work for some as an individual film, but it might not necessarily work as part of a larger narrative. Whether we like it or not you can’t ask audiences to simply look at this type of film on its own merits, they are going to to have certain concepts based on previous films in mind going in that you can’t get rid of. And if something doesn’t adhear to those established ideas a disconnect is likely to form. The errors become all the more pronounced by the film because people aren’t as emotionally invested anymore.

 

[Reaver027]

What are all these plotholes that people talk about? I'm sure they're there, I'd just like to hear about it.

The plotholes center around Holdo for the most part.
Why does Poe not know who that amazing general is.
Why does she not tell her best pilot the plan and does not even seem to know him.
As a result we get the Finn subplot. How can he travel to the otherside of the galaxy, be arrested, have a horse race and return in less than 18 hours.
Why can't the first order not jump ahead of the resistance fleet (or jump out of the system and jump back in infront of them).

I think these are the major ones.

 

[Bobber]

The plotholes center around Holdo for the most part.
Why does Poe not know who that amazing general is.
Why does she not tell her best pilot the plan and does not even seem to know him.
As a result we get the Finn subplot. How can he travel to the otherside of the galaxy, be arrested, have a horse race and return in less than 18 hours.
Why can't the first order not jump ahead of the resistance fleet (or jump out of the system and jump back in infront of them).

I think these are the major ones.

1) He clearly does, he just doesn't know what she looks like. He even mentions having heard of her.

2) Because he may be their best pilot, but he's rash, and selfish, and wants to be a hero.

3) I don't know. How can Luke train to be a jedi in about 48 hours, in Empire?

4) I don't know. Perhaps because if they jump away in lightspeed, the resistance will just do the same thing in another direction, and they'll be out of range for the tracker? This seems like a really nitpicking question.

 

[jmc]

Luke's three lessons to Rey is another. What was the third lesson? It's so weird this film ignores not only the last film but seemingly things that happen within its own story.

 

[Reaver027]

1) He clearly does, he just doesn't know what she looks like. He even mentions having heard of her.

2) Because he may be their best pilot, but he's rash, and selfish, and wants to be a hero.

3) I don't know. How can Luke train to be a jedi in about 48 hours, in Empire?

4) I don't know. Perhaps because if they jump away in lightspeed, the resistance will just do the same thing in another direction, and they'll be out of range for the tracker? This seems like a really nitpicking question.

1. Thats what i meant. How can he not know how she looks. The resistance is a rather small group. And he got access to the leading circle.

2. Still he could have been an asset to keep troop morale up. And that lead to a mutiny out of desperation.

3. Empire never gave us a clear timeframe. TLJ is the first movie that does and seems to conteadict other canon naterial like the animated shows.

4. Leave a few ships behind to track. Send a few ships ahead. It is not rocket science. And it is not nitpicky because it is the premise for half of the movie.

Luke's three lessons to Rey is another. What was the third lesson? It's so weird this film ignores not only the last film but seemingly things that happen within its own story.

I have already forgotten about that. Afaik that was cut from the movie right?

 

[jmc]

Apparently. Which is baffling, because you would assume those three lessons would amount to something or have great importance to Rey's character development. But it's like they just forgot about it. You've got to ask the question if the third lesson was so disposable and could be cut out so easily without it affecting Rey's character journey, then what was the point of having any lessons in the first place? Why set up something that had no baring on the outcome of the film?

 

[Mjölnir]

The plotholes center around Holdo for the most part.
Why does Poe not know who that amazing general is.
Why does she not tell her best pilot the plan and does not even seem to know him.
As a result we get the Finn subplot. How can he travel to the otherside of the galaxy, be arrested, have a horse race and return in less than 18 hours.
Why can't the first order not jump ahead of the resistance fleet (or jump out of the system and jump back in infront of them).

I think these are the major ones.

Regarding telling Poe the plan, I'd say the issue is why doesn't she tell the entire crew the plan so they can start getting ready? It doesn't make sense to keep people out of the loop so they have to scramble to execute a plan on a few minutes notice.

My experience with the military is quite the opposite. You get your men in the right place as soon as possible when something is decided, rushing people even if they end up just having to sit and wait for the right time. You can't afford to keep sloppy margins when lives are at stake.

But in the end I think this would have been more acceptable if the storyline that depended on this was better in my eyes. Quality tends to make suspension of disbelief easier.

 

[cristianegan]

In South Korea this movie has the best critic ratings but the worst audience ratings out of 3 recent Star Wars movies. It also suffered a massive 80% drop in its second weekend there. For some reason this movie clicks better with critics but worse with the audience.

 

[jmc]

Regarding telling Poe the plan, I'd say the issue is why doesn't she tell the entire crew the plan so they can start getting ready? It doesn't make sense to keep people out of the loop so they have to scramble to execute a plan on a few minutes notice.

My experience with the military is quite the opposite. You get your men in the right place as soon as possible when something is decided, rushing people even if they end up just having to sit and wait for the right time. You can't afford to keep sloppy margins when lives are at stake.

But in the end I think this would have been more acceptable if the storyline that depended on this was better in my eyes. Quality tends to make suspension of disbelief easier.

This is the thing that baffles me when people argue about the chain of command. Yes, by the rules of typical military superiors don't have to answer to subordinates, but I can't imagine under the circumstances they were in with so many peoples lives at stake that it makes a whole lot of sense to withhold information. Any person whether they rank high or low in the chain is going to want to know what the plan is for that situation. It's a completely logical thing for people to demand answers from superiors under those circumstances. I'm not 100% certain what the ultimate goal by Johnson was for Holdo in that situation. If she was working for the First Order it makes sense for her to withhold that information. But she's not working for them, so it ends up just making her look like she's a bad and uncaring leader.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

In South Korea this movie has the best critic ratings but the worst audience ratings out of 3 recent Star Wars movies. It also suffered a massive 80% drop in its second weekend there. For some reason this movie clicks better with critics but worse with the audience.

There's a mixed reaction in Japan too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ollieb...t-jedi-has-been-decidedly-mixed/#374a0f755a29

The main gripes are also similar to what some fans in the West have been complaining about. In addition, the reviews from the Japanese press have been somewhat mixed, with this particular piece being quite interesting. So there isn’t this disconnect we are seeing in the West between the press and some fans over the film.

 

[batman1]

In South Korea this movie has the best critic ratings but the worst audience ratings out of 3 recent Star Wars movies. It also suffered a massive 80% drop in its second weekend there. For some reason this movie clicks better with critics but worse with the audience.

This should be investigated.

 

[Consona]

Seems like Meracritic was hacked too!

 

[Consona]

1. Critics love "bold" choices. Deconstructing a myth or characters is something that is getting a lot of praises.

That's why they loved BvS so much! Plus BvS had much better script than TLJ. So... It isn't that.

2. The story in TLJ is decent enough to not hurt the movie enough from a critical standpoint.

It's quite the opposite, and if critics were not trying to please Disney with their reviews then it shows they don't know a s**t about movies. The story was so disjointed with so many pointless things which would only benefit the movie if they were cut out, the story was far from decent. Plus those non-existent character arcs...

 

[NotNickFury]

There's a mixed reaction in Japan too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ollieb...t-jedi-has-been-decidedly-mixed/#374a0f755a29

This was interesting.

Younger viewers also seem more upbeat about The Last Jedi, which is likely what Disney was intending here. However, the older fans of Star Wars in Japan are mortified with what The Last Jedi has done to the Star Wars mythos.

Though I imagine the only 'mortified' folks would be those maybe in that petition who want Last Jedi removed from canon. Just the more hyperbolic bunch.

 

[CaptainWagner]

That's why they loved BvS so much! Plus BvS had much better script than TLJ. So... It isn't that.


It's quite the opposite, and if critics were not trying to please Disney with their reviews then it shows they don't know a s**t about movies. The story was so disjointed with so many pointless things which would only benefit the movie if they were cut out, the story was far from decent. Plus those non-existent character arcs...

Um.....What? I REALLY don't want to assume you're biased, here, but claiming BvS has a better script AND suggesting the critics are sold out to Disney? Yeah.... sure.

And how did you miss the character arcs? Finn comes to believe in the cause and truly become a hero. Kylo turns his back on his master and decides to control his own destiny. Luke is brought back from exile and comes to accept his failure. Rey comes to accept that who her parents were does not define her. Poe becomes more of a leader by learning a very hard lesson.

 

[Aximili86]

That's why they loved BvS so much! Plus BvS had much better script than TLJ. So... It isn't that.

Jesus Christ, Consona...

You're adorably funny.

 

[spiderman2]

Man even the critic RT score has drop. Yes it is still good but for a long time it was looking like it was going to finish at a 93-92 now it is at a 90. Before the movie came out I really thought it would end up like a 96.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Better thread for this:

Buzzfeed - Journalists Are Nervous About What A Disney And Fox Merger Would Mean For Them
“We’ve seen a pattern in Disney’s behavior. The more power they have, the more they wield it,” one entertainment reporter said.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/krystieyan...y-fox-merger?utm_term=.bwONO480r4#.ih7eAQgo1Q

Some reporters noted that this is not a problem specific to Disney, but that in the world of entertainment journalism, your relationships with press representatives determine your access to interviews, film screenings, set visits, and other means of coverage. Future press opportunities, they said, are dependent on how favorable your coverage has been of past films, television shows, and other news related to the company.

“As a critic, I’ve had Disney tell me they don’t want to invite me to a film because I didn’t like the last one,” another film critic said. “It really scares me to watch them get even more power.”

 

[Agent Orange]

rogerebert.com's Matt Zoller Seitz has been staunch in his support for the film since the beginning and he's hardly a guy who can be coerced into an opinion. If we're going to have this discussion then let's throw the Marvel Cinematic Universe into the blender as well.

I absolutely despise how the critical reaction has been (seemingly) thrown into the ridiculous "Fake News" stratosphere. Another critic that I admire - James Berardinelli - gave it a middling review. There's no conspiracy here. Iger doesn't wield power over professional critics.

 

[Filmfan93]

Man even the critic RT score has drop. Yes it is still good but for a long time it was looking like it was going to finish at a 93-92 now it is at a 90. Before the movie came out I really thought it would end up like a 96.

And what difference does it make to you if the score is 90 and not 96?

Sorry, but i've noticed that in most of your comments you focus on numbers and specific stuff like it makes all the difference in the world when in reality it doesn't change things a lot, especially when you focus on very small intervals between numbers.

90 or 96 critics score on RT, the film is still fresh with critics.

 

[spiderman2]

And what difference does it make to you if the score is 90 and not 96?

Sorry, but i've noticed that in most of your comments you focus on numbers and specific stuff like it makes all the difference in the world when in reality it doesn't change things a lot, especially when you focus on very small intervals between numbers.

90 or 96 critics score on RT, the film is still fresh with critics.

Just surprised because it was 92 for a while and 2nd TFA, NH both got a 93 and ESB got a 94. So now its lower then episode 4,5 and 7. I was rotting for it to be like a 95-96 because above a 94 would be the highest in the franchise and it would be cool to have a new highest/best reviewed star wars movie and I guess I just want a higher RT score to justifiy saying this movie is great because from fan recepetion it sure don't fell like a movie that got great reviews. Fells more like a mix reviewed movie like a 62 type of movie.

 

[Mjölnir]

rogerebert.com's Matt Zoller Seitz has been staunch in his support for the film since the beginning and he's hardly a guy who can be coerced into an opinion. If we're going to have this discussion then let's throw the Marvel Cinematic Universe into the blender as well.

I absolutely despise how the critical reaction has been (seemingly) thrown into the ridiculous "Fake News" stratosphere. Another critic that I admire - James Berardinelli - gave it a middling review. There's no conspiracy here. Iger doesn't wield power over professional critics.

You seem like you're being overly defensive as that article is about the Fox acquisition, which means a big focus on the MCU and very little on Star Wars. Ergo you're not adding anything, the MCU aspect was already there.

If anything this issue has been discussed quite a bit around the MCU on this forum, most likely more so than around Star Wars.