Rub & Tug

[Dr.]

By that logic, no one should be allowed to play anything they're not in reality, including gay actors playing straight roles (like Neil Patrick Harris playing a ladies' man, or Matt Bomer on White Collar).

Not that I’m necessarily defending this notion… But the counter-argument has to do with historical privilege vs. historical underrepresentation. Thus, it’s more culturally acceptable to have a black actor play a traditionally white role. Or to have a female doing a male role; or to have a gay actor play a straight character. Etc. Whereas, the inverse scenarios are (now) more “politically” problematic.

 

[MadVillainy]

There’s not exactly an abundance of trans performers, let alone ones who’d get big studio backing.

But how can they get to a spot where there is one if no one is really giving them a shot?

 

[MadVillainy]

Whitewashing absolutely played a part in that. People who were fans didn't see it because of her. The film had several problems on its own, but that was one of them.

I also doubt Johansson saw this as a "F you" scenario either. She paints herself as progressive.

I mean she paints herself as a Me Too supporter and defended Woody Allen

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Again: she's not playing a trans character. She's playing a woman who considers herself a woman but business partners think is a guy.

Like the friggin' Twelfth Night. Which nobody's had any issues with, ever.

This is what it says in the deadline article:

https://deadline.com/2018/07/scarle...nd-tug-dante-tex-gill-trans-lgbtq-1202421430/

Actress Scarlett Johansson is in hot water once again for her recent choice to play massage parlor owner Dante “Tex” Gill in the upcoming mob drama Rub & Tug. The real-life Gill was born as Lois Jean Gill, but identified as a man — which is a detail in the role that has sparked backlash.

That sounds like it goes beyond simply pretending to be a man for her business partners. That sounds like someone born a woman identifies as a man. More to the point, Scarlett's response is specifically based around the idea she is playing a transgender character. So if the character isn't suppose to be transgender, why is Scarlett arguing that it is?

 

[harlequinade]

....and wore Marchesa to MET gala. But she wants 'Franco's pin back'

 

[scarlet-witch]

But how can they get to a spot where there is one if no one is really giving them a shot?

Exactly. Hollywood needs to give them a chance. Of course trans actors shouldn't only be limited to playing trans characters but they aren't being given enough chances. That's why people have a problem with this now, moreso than they did when Transamerica or even Dallas Buyers Club was out. There's more visibility now.

And like I said before, you can still like those performances all while acknowledging that trans actors need more opportunities.

 

[MadVillainy]

....and wore Marchesa to MET gala. But she wants 'Franco's pin back'

I don't know the backstory of that

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't know the backstory of that

It is the brand made by the wife of Harvey Weinstein. The brand built on the back of Weinstein threatening the women he harassed/assaulted to wear.

 

[Zarex]

Obviously I would hope non-LGBT people would care if Trump’s Supreme Court picks tried to roll back our rights. But I don’t think that’s relevant to a discussion about a cisgender actor playing an ambiguously transgender character in a movie. By that logic, gay actors shouldn’t play straight characters either as they have plenty of times.

That smells an awful lot like the "How would YOU feel if they made Blade white?" argument used by certain folks whenever a black actor is cast in a role that was depicted as white in the source material. There are fewer roles for black actors than their are for white thesbians, a much smaller number of gay roles, and an extraordinarily tiny number of roles for transgender characters. Casting a straight or non transgender person in those roles is controversial because it is taking away opportunities that are in very short supply. (FWIW I am neither 14 nor a female).

 

[scarlet-witch]

Also I'm slightly confused why some are saying Gill "isn't trans" Just because he didn't have full surgery? It seems from everything I've read he wanted everyone to refer to him as male, even outside of business.

 

[MadVillainy]

It is the brand made by the wife of Harvey Weinstein. The brand built on the back of Weinstein threatening the women he harassed/assaulted to wear.

Heavens...

That smells an awful lot like the "How would YOU feel if they made Blade white?" argument used by certain folks whenever a black actor is cast in a role that was depicted as white in the source material. There are fewer roles for black actors than their are for white thesbians, a much smaller number of gay roles, and an extraordinarily tiny number of roles for transgender characters. Casting a straight or non transgender person in those roles is controversial because it is taking away opportunities that are in very short supply. (FWIW I am neither 14 nor a female).

Is this a new thing I'm unaware of

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Honestly, this situation feels like obvious progression. It use to be acceptable for a white man to play non-white characters, until it wasn't. And I guess the amount of minority actors in Hollywood at some point would be considered too low and thus considered a part of doing business. Until it wasn't.

I do not think this is the same thing as being gay and playing a non-gay character, or the other way around. Mainly as so far you see that crossover. Though I do remember Ellen Page mentioning that a lot of roles to play someone not gay really started to dry up on her after she came out.

 

[dark_b]

If Scarlet wasn't an outspoken progressive who was just involved in a whitewashing controversy and responded aggressively to (mostly) reasonable criticism, there would be considerably less pearl clutching.

fact

 

[MadVillainy]

I just read they're spending $30 mill on this. Seems like a lot. I guess for the makeup?

 

[Zarex]

Heavens...



Is this a new thing I'm unaware of

It's a lesbian actor. Not a spelling error.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I just read they're spending $30 mill on this. Seems like a lot. I guess for the makeup?

Probably to pay Scarlett. Which seems to be a really bad investment at the moment. If we are looking for some white male privilege, Rupert Sanders. Goddamn.

 

[dark_b]

Why do you get it with Ghost In The Shell? She wasn't playing a Japanese body in that, she was playing a Japanese person's mind/consciousness in a robot. No reason that can't look like Scarlett.

.

wasnt this written in the narrative for Johansson?

 

[MadVillainy]

Probably to pay Scarlett. Which seems to be a really bad investment at the moment. If we are looking for some white male privilege, Rupert Sanders. Goddamn.

OT: Can someone clear something up for me? Because I used to be under the impression that production budget includes the actors salary. But then I read a couple months ago that that's not the case. Which was weird to me, but it was from a credible site (I forget where).

Which is it?

 

[harlequinade]

I think the budget includes salary

 

[DarthSkywalker]

OT: Can someone clear something up for me. Because I used to be under the impression that production budget includes the actors salary. But then I read a couple months ago that that's not the case. Which was weird to me, but it was from a credible site (I forget where).

Which is it?

Outside of potential backend deals, I was always under the impression it was a part of the production budget. Mainly as I remember it as one of the reasons Scorsese's and Tarantino's production budgets can get stupid high for non-effect heavy films.

Generic link, but it seems legit:

https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/movie-cost1.htm

 

[MadVillainy]

Outside of potential backend deals, I was always under the impression it was a part of the production budget. Mainly as I remember it as one of the reasons Scorsese's and Tarantino's production budgets can get stupid high for non-effect heavy films.


Generic link, but it seems legit:

https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/movie-cost1.htm

I think the budget includes salary

THanks yeah that's what I thought too. There was that movie It's Complicated with Meryl Streep and Alec Baldwin and it cost 80 mill with no major SFX. Same with that one movie with Jack Nicholson, Reese Witherspoon, Owen Wilson, and Paul Rudd

Anyway it's stupid to spend 30 mill on this. Again I Tonya, one of the better biopics in recent memory imo, only cost a reported 11 mill. Sure the SFX were eh, but it was still really good and didn't cost much

 

[Aximili86]

wasnt this written in the narrative for Johansson?

No. That's the way it's always been with the series. The mind is Japanese, but the cyborg body isn't necessarily fashioned after a Japanese appearance. She could look like anyone, basically. And the movie obviously kept all of the Japanese origin in play. *Shrugs* Doesn't stray from the source in that sense.

Sith, it seems a little sketchy either way, not entirely sure what to make of it. The initial media articles were wording it as "woman who dressed in men's clothing" which seemed a step short of living/identifying fulltime as male - especially in the "doing it to be taken more seriously in business" context they were framing it. But yeah, couldn't rustle up a full bio of Gill on google, but did find this:


For awhile, DeLucia’s business partner was Dante “Tex” Gill, an overweight Brentwood woman who dressed like a man in suits and ties, wore short hair and sideburns and preferred to be called “Mr. Gill.” A lesbian, Gill married Cynthia Bruno of Dallas, Texas, in Hawaii and lived with her in Pittsburgh before the couple eventually split.


Guess it all depends on whether wanting to be addressed as "Mr Gill" was strictly in work life at the massage business, or wider into her life in general. Couldn't really find anything clarifying that either way, but seems to be the impression of the pieces regarding the movie that it was more of a perceived necessity to be able to succeed in business.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No. That's the way it's always been with the series. The mind is Japanese, but the cyborg body isn't necessarily fashioned after a Japanese appearance. She could look like anyone, basically. And the movie obviously kept all of the Japanese origin in play. *Shrugs* Doesn't stray from the source in that sense.

Sith, it seems a little sketchy either way, not entirely sure what to make of it. The initial media articles were wording it as "woman who dressed in men's clothing" which seemed a step short of living/identifying fulltime as male - especially in the "doing it to be taken more seriously in business" context they were framing it. But yeah, couldn't rustle up a full bio of Gill on google, but did find this:


For awhile, DeLucia’s business partner was Dante “Tex” Gill, an overweight Brentwood woman who dressed like a man in suits and ties, wore short hair and sideburns and preferred to be called “Mr. Gill.” A lesbian, Gill married Cynthia Bruno of Dallas, Texas, in Hawaii and lived with her in Pittsburgh before the couple eventually split.


Guess it all depends on whether wanting to be addressed as "Mr Gill" was strictly in work life at the massage business, or wider into her life in general. Couldn't really find anything clarifying that either way, but seems to be the impression of the pieces regarding the movie that it was more of a perceived necessity to be able to succeed in business.

Johansson thinks she is playing a transgender character as her answer to the criticism shows. What are you trying to argue exactly? That she is wrong?

 

[Aximili86]

Not necessarily. Could be taken that way, could be taken more broadly as her addressing the criticisms like "you didn't have a problem with these examples when they were playing transgender characters".

Like I said, it's hard to tell from the bio stuff available. I was going by the word choices in the articles (addressing her as "a woman" and "she" etc - you'd figure in this day and age that'd be some major awful pronoun crime if she did indeed identify as male). Basically all comes down to whether she lived as a man or whether it was strictly a way to get ahead when dealing with chaunistic dudes in the business world back in the 70s.

Which...doesn't seem to be information available. Just going by the way it's being presented as the "hook" for a movie and the way they're referring to her with female pronouns.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Not necessarily. Could be taken that way, could be taken more broadly as her addressing the criticisms like "you didn't have a problem with these examples when they were playing transgender characters".

Like I said, it's hard to tell from the bio stuff available. I was going by the word choices in the articles (addressing her as "a woman" and "she" etc - you'd figure in this day and age that'd be some major awful pronoun crime if she did indeed identify as male). Basically all comes down to whether she lived as a man or whether it was strictly a way to get ahead when dealing with chaunistic dudes in the business world back in the 70s.

Which...doesn't seem to be information available. Just going by the way it's being presented as the "hook" for a movie and the way they're referring to her with female pronouns.

So Scarlett Johansson, who is working with a director she has worked with before, is going to get into a very bad argument for herself over a subject that does not apply to the film she is making?