Rub & Tug

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think the movies exist because of any specific movement, the plans for Wonder Woman in particular have been there for ages, but DC can barely manage to get anything off the ground that doesn't include Batman lol.

Hunter, man. I live in a country where black people were second class citizen 50 years ago. I live in a country where the Equal Rights Amendment never passed. General progress is what I am talking about here. Heav

Wonder Woman being in the pipeline for a very long time, is a very good example of the issue with getting these projects made. They somehow pumped out two different Superman flicks and Suicide Squad before making it. How many big screen Batmans were there before a Wonder Woman flick? They made Green Lantern first.

I'm all for more race and gender diversity in front and behind the camera, I don't sit down to watch something based on the colour of skin or the genitals of the person directing/acting, if the subject interests me or something looks cool, I'm in, but it has taken time for this to become more the majority than minority mindset though, I agree, however I disagree with you on the Wonder Woman and Black Panther point, Ryan Coogler is a young black man from Compton I believe, he knows nothing about life in England in Downton Abbey times or being a white man but I don't see any reason that he couldn't direct that movie just as well as a white Englishman that comes from that world, talent trumps everything, great storytellers transcend the small box that is their own life experience.

But doesn't the reaction from the black community show the difference? How they reacted to Black Panther? The representation? There are so many things written by black people, that to me shows what it means. One can be the best storyteller.

I am of Latin heritage. I am an Anglophile, who loves his period pieces. I am also grew up in a predominately white world of cinema and television. How many white people were telling stories of the black experience, in a very authentic manner over the history of cinema and television? Also, then we get into who is writing.

Under the circumstances I do believe that a black director and female director needed to make Black Panther and Wonder Woman respectively, they were landmark movies, they were to a degree more than just a movie for what they represented, but for instance I don't agree with Marvel only looking at female directors for Black Widow, I think for instance the John Wick guys would have been perfect for her solo film but they were ruled out because of their genitals. The next big step is a black director making a Superman movie, a female director making a Bond movie, an Asian director making a Star Wars film, a white director making a Black Panther movie (after Cooglers trilogy, I need that first lol) etc....only once ALL of us move out of our boxes will equality and change happen IMO.

I feel like the second part is exactly why they are only looking for women to direct Black Widow. Because the chance for men, especially white men, to make such movies has been a lot more then the other way around. By default, they are looking for men. White men the vast majority of the time.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If you want to cast them cast then do it, but you can't also expect people to just show up to your film staring a nobody. Like it or not you're dealing with a business and you can't force the market to do what you want. Making creative content is not a ****ing charity, people are trying to make money and to earn a living and the market will dictate the directions you go. The problem with the twitter crowd is they don't understand this.. If you're hiring someone like Scarlett, it's because you think she'll put arses on seats and get you paid.

That is what just happened. The market dictated.

Also, the "starring a nobody" argument is the exact same excuse for why we didn't have minority leads. Its the self-fulling cycle, that keeps it from happening. You won't cast "nobodies" in these roles, thus making sure they can't become stars. But it also misses the obvious point. They cast straight white nobody actors all the time in big films. Who was Chris Hemsworth before he was Thor? Who was Mark Hamill before he was Luke Skywalker? Harrison Ford before he was Han Solo?

 

[zephyrinthesky]

No, reactions like this are possibly stopping another garbage Rupert Sanders movie.

Lack of faith in him and the creative team behind this project is biggest reason why pulling the plug is probably for the best.
I think a cisgender A-lister would give a transgender role the appropriate care and spotlight it deserves. But Sanders has delivered nothing but duds.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Lack of faith in him and the creative team behind this project is biggest reason why pulling the plug is probably for the best.
I think a cisgender A-lister would give a transgender role the appropriate care and spotlight it deserves. But Sanders has delivered nothing but duds.

And yet somehow he fails up. I can't imagine how that happens in Hollywood.

 

[jmc]

You say the market will dictate the directions you go, is that not what just happened?

What happened was somebody got bullied out of work by a minority group, that not the same as people voting with their wallets. If the same tactics worked to drive someone off a Star Wars film nobody would dare say it had anything to do with the market, they would blame a minority of toxic fans.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What happened was somebody got bullied out of work by a minority group, that not the same as people voting with their wallets. If the same tactics worked to drive someone off a Star Wars film nobody would dare say it had anything to do with the market, they would blame a minority of toxic fans.

The Star Wars situation is brought on by sexism and racism. This situation was brought on by a lack of diversity. Its like comparing a KKK rally to the Women's March.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Hunter, man. I live in a country where black people were second class citizen 50 years ago. I live in a country where the Equal Rights Amendment never passed. General progress is what I am talking about here. Heav

Wonder Woman being in the pipeline for a very long time, is a very good example of the issue with getting these projects made. They somehow pumped out two different Superman flicks and Suicide Squad before making it. How many big screen Batmans were there before a Wonder Woman flick? They made Green Lantern first.

I know, my Dad told me that when he was a young man and went to America that a black persopn wasn't allowed on the same bus or in the same diner as him, he couldn't believe it and we come from an area that was 100% white when I was a kid.


In fairness to do Wonder Woman right you need a huge budget, and I think they stalled trying to get it right as female led action films had struggled at the box office for decades, where as they did Green Lantern for instance because plenty of male led action garbage had made lots of money so they could take the financial risk. So I think the change that was needed wasn't so much at studio level, but at consumer level, and after several hit action/adventure TV shows led by women the climate was changing

But doesn't the reaction from the black community show the difference? How they reacted to Black Panther? The representation? There are so many things written by black people, that to me shows what it means. One can be the best storyteller.

I am of Latin heritage. I am an Anglophile, who loves his period pieces. I am also grew up in a predominately white world of cinema and television. How many white people were telling stories of the black experience, in a very authentic manner over the history of cinema and television? Also, then we get into who is writing.

I adressed below that I understood and agreed with the route they went for the first Black Panther and Wonder Woman, I never disputed that, my issue is that long term a great Wonder Woman or Black Panther movie can only be made by a black director or woman director respectively, in that case neither can direct a Captain America film or a Bond movie, they don't know what it's like to be a white man either, I aknowledge we have been the privledged section since the dawn of time but it doesn't meant we don't have our own culture and perspective, to suggest otherwise is a double standard, but what I am saying is that I do think Ryan Coogler can make a great Cap movie and that Patty Jenkins could make a great Bond movie because I believe great storytellers are more than their skin colour or life experience.

I feel like the second part is exactly why they are only looking for women to direct Black Widow. Because the chance for men, especially white men, to make such movies has been a lot more then the other way around. By default, they are looking for men. White men the vast majority of the time.

That's just continuing the cycle IMO, I mean with this train of thought is there a timeline for when it will be ok for a man to direct a female led action film again? It's just too much IMO, by all means let both genders pitch for the movie, just don't rule out an entire gender as that's just more of the same from a different angle.

 

[Hunter Rider]

You say the market will dictate the directions you go, is that not what just happened?

I don't think the market dictated what happened here though, I think it was more a case of a huge star not needing the headache of this situation and thus backing out after her team or whoever they are released that hamfisted statement that only fueled the fire. Had she put something out there personally that was more eloquent and respectful I think things might have went differently, now this movie might not get made which is a shame as the story I think was the bigger deal here, get that story out there, having a trans character in peoples conciousness would have been a step forward IMO.

 

[Hunter Rider]

The Star Wars situation is brought on by sexism and racism. This situation was brought on by a lack of diversity. Its like comparing a KKK rally to the Women's March.

Don't forget the biggest section of this, angry Luke Skywalker fanboys.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I know, my Dad told me that when he was a young man and went to America that a black persopn wasn't allowed on the same bus or in the same diner as him, he couldn't believe it and we come from an area that was 100% white when I was a kid.


In fairness to do Wonder Woman right you need a huge budget, and I think they stalled trying to get it right as female led action films had struggled at the box office for decades, where as they did Green Lantern for instance because plenty of male led action garbage had made lots of money so they could take the financial risk. So I think the change that was needed wasn't so much at studio level, but at consumer level, and after several hit action/adventure TV shows led by women the climate was changing

But many male leg action films have lost money. That is the thing, it doesn't matter. If it is white male lead movie that fails, it doesn't matter. Because we know there can be a success, so just keep doing it. For every Die Hard, there were massive failures. But they just kept going forward with white male leads. If they applied the same logic to women lead action films, they would have just kept making them in abundance. They didn't, even with successes like Aliens and Terminator.

When the majority of the time you show the public that women lead action films are second class, the audiences will see them as second class.

I adressed below that I understood and agreed with the route they went for the first Black Panther and Wonder Woman, I never disputed that, my issue is that long term a great Wonder Woman or Black Panther movie can only be made by a black director or woman director respectively, in that case neither can direct a Captain America film or a Bond movie, they don't know what it's like to be a white man either, I aknowledge we have been the privledged section since the dawn of time but it doesn't meant we don't have our own culture and perspective, to suggest otherwise is a double standard, but what I am saying is that I do think Ryan Coogler can make a great Cap movie and that Patty Jenkins could make a great Bond movie because I believe great storytellers are more than their skin colour or life experience.

That's just continuing the cycle IMO, I mean with this train of thought is there a timeline for when it will be ok for a man to direct a female led action film again? It's just too much IMO, by all means let both genders pitch for the movie, just don't rule out an entire gender as that's just more of the same from a different angle.

It will always be okay for a white man to make these movies. That is the thing. It isn't a issue, because it is never a deterrent. Look at the Hunger Games series. ****, look at Star Wars.

But some sort of parity would be nice. Like when these situations aren't one off, or so obviously limited.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Don't forget the biggest section of this, angry Luke Skywalker fanboys.

I am one of those, but somehow I never blame it on women existing.

 

[Snow Queen]

What happened was somebody got bullied out of work by a minority group, that not the same as people voting with their wallets. If the same tactics worked to drive someone off a Star Wars film nobody would dare say it had anything to do with the market, they would blame a minority of toxic fans.

Anyone bullying her is obviously wrong. But taking issue is not inherently bullying, and bullying is not all this comes down to. She decided to take a part, no one made her take this part. This is a part that represents a minority group. Said minority group took issue with her casting, especially following on the heels of this director's last film already having a similar controversy. To add insult to injury, she cited examples I've seen trans people take issue with for years as examples of what she did being okay.

Scarlett Johansson's unlikely to be hurting for work. She's had a successful career for years, and is still attached to Marvel, now looking at her own solo franchise. She's not a starving artist, who is missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime. She says she learned something from the experience, and I hope that's true, because the last thing the world needs is more ignorance instead of understanding. But when representing a minority group, it is important to actually listen to what that group has to say, rather than dismissing them and their concerns.

If I remember correctly, she was attached as a producer as well. If this gets made (and I expect it'll likely be bad if so, considering the director), and she remains as a producer, hopefully she takes her position and opportunity to apply what she learned.

 

[jmc]

The Star Wars situation is brought on by sexism and racism. This situation was brought on by a lack of diversity. Its like comparing a KKK rally to the Women's March.

And it resulted in the same type of bullying to Scarlett. It doesn't matter if it's for 'progressive' reasons, publicly shaming someone for not adhering to your standards and telling them to quit their job is no better than continuously calling someone a racial or sexist slur. It's not just about Scarlett, it's the hundreds of people who's jobs are now in doubt because of this campaign, but no-one thinks about the set designers, the costumer makers, the post production team, the caterers, etc. There's no such thing as good bullying.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Anyone bullying her is obviously wrong. But taking issue is not inherently bullying, and bullying is not all this comes down to. She decided to take a part, no one made her take this part. This is a part that represents a minority group. Said minority group took issue with her casting, especially following on the heels of this director's last film already having a similar controversy. To add insult to injury, she cited examples I've seen trans people take issue with for years as examples of what she did being okay.

Scarlett Johansson's unlikely to be hurting for work. She's had a successful career for years, and is still attached to Marvel, now looking at her own solo franchise. She's not a starving artist, who is missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime. She says she learned something from the experience, and I hope that's true, because the last thing the world needs is more ignorance instead of understanding. But when representing a minority group, it is important to actually listen to what that group has to say, rather than dismissing them and their concerns.

If I remember correctly, she was attached as a producer as well. If this gets made (and I expect it'll likely be bad if so, considering the director), and she remains as a producer, hopefully she takes her position and opportunity to apply what she learned.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And it resulted in the same type of bullying to Scarlett. It doesn't matter if it's for 'progressive' reasons, publicly shaming someone for not adhering to your standards and telling them to quit their job is no better than continuously calling someone a racial or sexist slur. It's not just about Scarlett, it's the hundreds of people who's jobs are now in doubt because of this campaign, but no-one thinks about the set designers, the costumer makers, the post production team, the caterers, etc. There's no such thing as good bullying.

Oh, no. That is very different. Or do you think people are bullying Trump?

 

[Hunter Rider]

But many male leg action films have lost money. That is the thing, it doesn't matter. If it is white male lead movie that fails, it doesn't matter. Because we know there can be a success, so just keep doing it. For every Die Hard, there were massive failures. But they just kept going forward with white male leads. If they applied the same logic to women lead action films, they would have just kept making them in abundance. They didn't, even with successes like Aliens and Terminator.

When the majority of the time you show the public that women lead action films are second class, the audiences will see them as second class.

That is true but that is also business, Hollywood was built on male led films, especially in the action genre, from war movies to westerns to the muscly blockbusters of the 80's, so with decades of proven success the bean counters could weigh up the risk vs reward ratio and thus make their calls, and for decades they played it safe.


The problem I think came from the fact that when they did tried female led action movies they never got off the ground with a big hit to prove they could draw, and this is where the blame lies, because they never gave the female led action movies the best writers and directors, they were always treat as a novelty instead of being treat as an action movie that happens to have a woman as the ass kicking hero.



Also as a side note I have to disagree on Termiantor, Sarah Connor did become an icon without a doubt but the first two movies were hits because of Arnie, especially the second when he was arguably the biggest box office draw in the world, the Terminator will forever be his franchise in the eyes of most people.

It will always be okay for a white man to make these movies. That is the thing. It isn't a issue, because it is never a deterrent. Look at the Hunger Games series. ****, look at Star Wars.

But some sort of parity would be nice. Like when these situations aren't one off, or so obviously limited.

I know they have directed them of course, my point was with Wonder Woman and now Black Widow and also Birds of Prey, they are ONLY looking at female directors, to me that is just continuing the mindset but from the opposite direction.


We agree there, I have discussed this issue a lot with a friend and my constant hope is that a day will come where studios take pitches from ALL different kinds of directors when making these big action films, and the pitch wins the gig rather than what is or isn't between your legs.

 

[jmc]

Anyone bullying her is obviously wrong. But taking issue is not inherently bullying, and bullying is not all this comes down to. She decided to take a part, no one made her take this part. This is a part that represents a minority group. Said minority group took issue with her casting, especially following on the heels of this director's last film already having a similar controversy. To add insult to injury, she cited examples I've seen trans people take issue with for years as examples of what she did being okay.

Scarlett Johansson's unlikely to be hurting for work. She's had a successful career for years, and is still attached to Marvel, now looking at her own solo franchise. She's not a starving artist, who is missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime. She says she learned something from the experience, and I hope that's true, because the last thing the world needs is more ignorance instead of understanding. But when representing a minority group, it is important to actually listen to what that group has to say, rather than dismissing them and their concerns.

If I remember correctly, she was attached as a producer as well. If this gets made (and I expect it'll likely be bad if so, considering the director), and she remains as a producer, hopefully she takes her position and opportunity to apply what she learned.

But it's not just about Scarlett, it's about everyone else involved with the film who's jobs are going to be in doubt now. She might not starve, but the lighting person or the prop maker might not be doing so well and needs that job to pay rent. To look at it as simply Scarlett who's affected is forget the hundreds of people that are involved with movies. Stars like Scarlett help get people employed by being popular enough and having enough clout in the industry to get movies green lit.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I am one of those, but somehow I never blame it on women existing.

Lol, have you seen some of the abuse Rian has gotten though? Pure hatred based totally off his character arc for Luke, no mention of Rose or Rey, it's brutal all round in the Star Wars fandom right now, George must be sad, I mean he copped horrendous abuse from Star Wars trolls but I don't think he ever expected his slice of escapsim to descend into the ugly entitlement that we are seeing right now

 

[Snow Queen]

I don't think the market dictated what happened here though, I think it was more a case of a huge star not needing the headache of this situation and thus backing out after her team or whoever they are released that hamfisted statement that only fueled the fire. Had she put something out there personally that was more eloquent and respectful I think things might have went differently, now this movie might not get made which is a shame as the story I think was the bigger deal here, get that story out there, having a trans character in peoples conciousness would have been a step forward IMO.

While I can understand that perspective, the argument I've seen from trans people I know comes down to that casting decisions like these perpetrate misconceptions that are harmful. That at the end of the day, they're a man in a dress or a woman with short hair. And those are ideas that, when ingrained in people, can cause real world harm and violence. I don't know if there's some right answer here, but I do think it's important to take concerns of the minority group the film pertains to into account. And in this case, it seems it didn't go over great with them.

 

[jmc]

Oh, no. That is very different. Or do you think people are bullying Trump?

By the definition of the word, yeah. The difference is he doesn't care.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That is true but that is also business, Hollywood was built on male led films, especially in the action genre, from war movies to westerns to the muscly blockbusters of the 80's, so with decades of proven success the bean counters could weigh up the risk vs reward ratio and thus make their calls, and for decades they played it safe.


The problem I think came from the fact that when they did tried female led action movies they never got off the ground with a big hit to prove they could draw, and this is where the blame lies, because they never gave the female led action movies the best writers and directors, they were always treat as a novelty instead of being treat as an action movie that happens to have a woman as the ass kicking hero.

Yes Hunter, but why is that? Could it have been an issue with when Hollywood came about, and perhaps how women were treated? That Hollywood was male dominated, in a society where women were treated as lesser, incapable in a physical manner?

I agree they didn't get the best writers and directors, but the also didn't get people who might be interested in it. Perhaps a woman would be interested in writing a female lead action film, that isn't just there to film a demo request. But they didn't get that chance often.

Also as a side note I have to disagree on Termiantor, Sarah Connor did become an icon without a doubt but the first two movies were hits because of Arnie, especially the second when he was arguably the biggest box office draw in the world, the Terminator will forever be his franchise in the eyes of most people.

Sarah Connor is the main character of Terminator. Arnie was a big star come the second, but even there, he wasn't the main character. That was John. But the point is, you could make an action movie, with a female lead that kills Arnold, and it somehow did very well.

I know they have directed them of course, my point was with Wonder Woman and now Black Widow and also Birds of Prey, they are ONLY looking at female directors, to me that is just continuing the mindset but from the opposite direction.

I don't think it is an issue considering they only spent time looking for men to direct such movies for like 90 years.

We agree there, I have discussed this issue a lot with a friend and my constant hope is that a day will come where studios take pitches from ALL different kinds of directors when making these big action films, and the pitch wins the gig rather than what is or isn't between your legs.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But it's not just about Scarlett, it's about everyone else involved with the film who's jobs are going to be in doubt now. She might not starve, but the lighting person or the prop maker might not be doing so well and needs that job to pay rent. To look at it as simply Scarlett who's affected is forget the hundreds of people that are involved with movies. Stars like Scarlett help get people employed by being popular enough and having enough clout in the industry to get movies green lit.

This applies to all films. So if someone wanted to make a super racist film, that got shutdown before it was filmed, would it be an issue of people losing their jobs?

Also, why do you assume it won't be made? Also if making the film injures Scarlett's star power, what does that do for the projects it would cost her getting greenlit going forward? Are those not an issue?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Lol, have you seen some of the abuse Rian has gotten though? Pure hatred based totally off his character arc for Luke, no mention of Rose or Rey, it's brutal all round in the Star Wars fandom right now, George must be sad, I mean he copped horrendous abuse from Star Wars trolls but I don't think he ever expected his slice of escapsim to descend into the ugly entitlement that we are seeing right now

Yep. I have seen it all man. I am not happy with a lot of stuff in TLJ, but I don't do that kind of stuff. I disagree on George though. He is probably loving this.

 

[Hunter Rider]

While I can understand that perspective, the argument I've seen from trans people I know comes down to that casting decisions like these perpetrate misconceptions that are harmful. That at the end of the day, they're a man in a dress or a woman with short hair. And those are ideas that, when ingrained in people, can cause real world harm and violence. I don't know if there's some right answer here, but I do think it's important to take concerns of the minority group the film pertains to into account. And in this case, it seems it didn't go over great with them.

I agree that there is no right or wrong answer here, I think the cold truth is right now a lot of people would not be enticed to a film with a trans character as the lead, people in large are still very uncomfortable with the transgender discussion, I personally don't really understand it, I honestly doubt anyone who isn't trans can to be honest, but I just respect that this is how some people feel, they were born in the wrong body, who am I to tell them different?


However to get the topic and the discussion to a place where people in general can feel at ease and start to communicate, there needs to be films and TV covering it, as silly as that sounds entertainment is often a gateway to opening up conversations people otherwise might never have, and to get the platform set up it might well take a few big names playing a trans person in order to draw in the wider populace and thus get the conversation started.

 

[Snow Queen]

But it's not just about Scarlett, it's about everyone else involved with the film who's jobs are going to be in doubt now. She might not starve, but the lighting person or the prop maker might not be doing so well and needs that job to pay rent. To look at it as simply Scarlett who's affected is forget the hundreds of people that are involved with movies. Stars like Scarlett help get people employed by being popular enough and having enough clout in the industry to get movies green lit.

And, if this movie falls through, I hope every one of them finds a new job quick. The situation isn't their fault. The movie currently is not cancelled though, and as I understand it, she remains a producer. Hopefully she can use that clout of hers to make things work.