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Yeah, I agree. I think the Punisher tattoos and body armor logo are some real-world commentary on how some racist cops (and other racists) appropriated that logo as part of their twisted justification for their despicable deeds. It became such a problem that Marvel actually started using a new logo for the Punisher. In the case of this show, they don’t seem to necessarily be racists but just corrupt cops who probably dislike most vigilantes but approve of the Punisher because unlike Daredevil or White Tiger, he kills his enemies.
I feel like once Frank enters the picture and takes out a lot of these scumbags, it will be more meta commentary with Marvel essentially taking back the logo from garbage people who are appropriating it.
I think Frank would have treated Misty Knight the same way he treated Brett Mahoney: an antagonistic force but someone who he would never kill. He most likely would have knocked her out if they fought but would also rescue her if a more menacing villain went after them.
Speaking of Brett Mahoney, it would have been interesting to see him in this series and how he would have reacted to Hector Ayala. On the one hand, it was likely he would have known many if not all of these corrupt cops and even saw them as friends at one point. On the other hand, he wasn't a fan of corruption and would not have been too happy to see Wilson Fisk as mayor. I hope he returns for season 2.
Anybody else think it was funny the DA gave his big closing argument about Good People doing Bad Things, then segued into talking about the cops as if cops never ever do bad things, ever...?
Can't wait to see what Frank has to say to the corrupt police (and essentially Marvel to the d-bags in the real world who misuse the logo)
Anybody else think it was funny the DA gave his big closing argument about Good People doing Bad Things, then segued into talking about the cops as if cops never ever do bad things, ever...?
Can't wait to see what Frank has to say to the corrupt police (and essentially Marvel to the d-bags in the real world who misuse the logo)
Idk, I know they've been fairly pro-cop when it came to certain things, like in Ms. Marvel
And there may be the good cop, like Mahoney, who ascends to commissioner by the end of the season
but Frank's hopefully gonna dish out some vengeance/justice before before we get there
there's no way this group of cops with the tattoos are being set up as these villains just to be like "aww shucks, we've seen the light cuz we're really the good guys" by the end
fingers crossed
Idk, I know they've been fairly pro-cop when it came to certain things, like in Ms. Marvel
And there may be the good cop, like Mahoney, who ascends to commissioner by the end of the season
but Frank's hopefully gonna dish out some vengeance/justice before before we get there
there's no way this group of cops with the tattoos are being set up as these villains just to be like "aww shucks, we've seen the light cuz we're really the good guys" by the end
fingers crossed
Idk, I know they've been fairly pro-cop when it came to certain things, like in Ms. Marvel
And there may be the good cop, like Mahoney, who ascends to commissioner by the end of the season
but Frank's hopefully gonna dish out some vengeance/justice before before we get there
there's no way this group of cops with the tattoos are being set up as these villains just to be like "aww shucks, we've seen the light cuz we're really the good guys" by the end
fingers crossed
I've enjoyed the first 3 episodes so far, but you can tell there's been times where it's been thrown together with the reshoots. The show has been lacking something thus far. Still glad to see these characters back, though.
I'm also disappointed in the lack of MCU references. The Easter eggs are nice and all, but this does take place in the proper MCU now. Need to make it feel more like it.
Still going with the corrupt cop shooting Ayala while wearing Punisher gear because of the delusion of the cop that Castle would have done the same thing, even though we all know that Castle would not have done so because Ayala was found innocent in a court of law. The person who killed Ayala did not kill him to frame Castle. This is how I believe.
These dirty cops don't see Castle as a villain, they see him as someone that they idolize. This will disturb and upset Castle when he finds out. As I said before, he likely has respect for cops like Brett Mahoney and Misty Knight (even though he's never met Misty) who are good cops. If he had thought that Mahoney was dirty at all, he would have left Mahoney to die at the end of Season Two of Punisher when the ambulance overturned after Pilgrim attacked it.
I've enjoyed the first 3 episodes so far, but you can tell there's been times where it's been thrown together with the reshoots. The show has been lacking something thus far. Still glad to see these characters back, though.
I'm also disappointed in the lack of MCU references. The Easter eggs are nice and all, but this does take place in the proper MCU now. Need to make it feel more like it.
You don't need to reference other stuff in the MCU constantly even when your story is set in it. That's one thing they've gotten right with this series.
The one thing that's most obviously missing for me so far is an interesting supporting cast around Matt Murdock. No offense to the actors, it's the characters that are underwritten and not very interesting so far.
Someone wants to make Punisher guilty. As they wanted to incriminate Hector.
Fisk may be behind all of this. He hates vigilants masked heroes and costumed characters. He promised to end all vigilants heroes guys during his compaign.
Someone wants to make Punisher guilty. As they wanted to incriminate Hector.
Fisk may be behind all of this. He hates vigilants masked heroes and costumed characters. He promised to end all vigilants heroes guys during his compaign.
He hates costumed characters but Fisk is smart enough to know the difference between vigilantes in costume and regular people in costume as I doubt he's dumb enough to arrest a bunch of high school kids hosting a costume party or a bunch of ordinary civilians pretending to play Dungeons and Dragons in Central Park. The cops working for him though? Who knows.
Yeah, I agree. I think the Punisher tattoos and body armor logo are some real-world commentary on how some racist cops (and other racists) appropriated that logo as part of their twisted justification for their despicable deeds. It became such a problem that Marvel actually started using a new logo for the Punisher. In the case of this show, they don’t seem to necessarily be racists but just corrupt cops who probably dislike most vigilantes but approve of the Punisher because unlike Daredevil or White Tiger, he kills his enemies.
I feel like once Frank enters the picture and takes out a lot of these scumbags, it will be more meta commentary with Marvel essentially taking back the logo from garbage people who are appropriating it.
Yes, one of the biggest problems I had with this episode was the show don’t tell aspect. When people were talking about how White Tiger saved them in court, this would have been the perfect opportunity to show him in action. It would’ve hit much more emotional as well to tie into his need to do this as well when he suits up again at the end.
I guess it was a budget issue, but it definitely a strange decision not to do it.
Yes, one of the biggest problems I had with this episode was the show don’t tell aspect. When people were talking about how White Tiger saved them in court, this would have been the perfect opportunity to show him in action. It would’ve hit much more emotional as well to tie into his need to do this as well when he suits up again at the end.
I guess it was a budget issue, but it definitely a strange decision not to do it.
Why kill off White Tiger before even showing his powers and what he can do? All we saw was that one snippet of security cam footage. I don't get this decision. He implied his amulet gives him superpowers, but we never see it.
Frankly, I think it's because the story really isn't about him.
The point is that he's a foil for Matt. Matt wants to believe he's past being Daredevil and can do good without the mask. Ayala says that it's part of who he is. At the end of the trial, it seems to be vindication for Matt, but the very end casts doubt on that. Plus, my guess is we'll see "a" White Tiger in the future and what they can do.
I think that is the core of whats “off” with this series. We’re seeing Daredevil and Kingpin not be Daredevil and Kingpin. Like in season 3; Fisk and Matt barely had scenes together in that season as well BUT the season was ABOUT them finally fully ascending in their personas and coming to a collision with each other. Matt wasnt wearing the red suit but he was very much DAREDEVIL and rebuilding himself back up to be a hero again and his whole goal was to go after Fisk.
Born Again is very much a clean slate for both characters and obviously we’re going to eventually see these characters be what they were “born” to be but its …an adjustment seeing them in a very different space for now.
I agree with the analysis, but I do think it's deliberate and can work well if the payoff is handled well. If you think about the actual Born Again comic, he spends a good amount of time recuperating and wallowing. He's not Daredevil but in a different costume. That being said, I'd argue the main parallel is not Daredevil here, but Spider-Man No More. He certainly gave up being Daredevil due to a tragedy, but he's also convinced he can move past it. I assume the story is building up to him going back into the suit.
Anybody else think it was funny the DA gave his big closing argument about Good People doing Bad Things, then segued into talking about the cops as if cops never ever do bad things, ever...?
I love the way they portray the DA. He comes across as suave, but used to getting his way. Feels very natural for a prosecutor. The fact that he made that argument with no apparent contradiction in his mind feels right. I'm glad they didn't make him outright cruel, but also completely indifferent to learning the truth (he never questions the officer's story or tries to look into whether there was a CI).
Anyway, my thoughts on the episode:
It's good to see Matt as an attorney. I've already given my thoughts about the trajectory of the show, so I'm fine with no Daredevil moments. Also, Matt in trial is an important part of the character. I'm an attorney, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about the way shows handle trials when it is at least done well. The only real moment of confusion for me was the introduction of police reports without the officers testifying (maybe they were stipulated to) followed by putting Ayala back on the stand without ever being crossed.
Comparison to the comics story:
I'm a big fan of Brian Michael Bendis's Trial of the Century. Given that, I was surprised both that there wasn't a big cross-examination moment (the big moment in the comic) and the verdict was different. That being said, the payoff works for different reasons with the different result. There were still good moments to compare the heroism of Matt and the heroism of Ayala. In fact, while the obsession moments were there, it was downplayed. His heroism was shown to be a calling and a good for the city. Since Matt needs to come to the realization that Daredevil is the same thing, that makes sense. In the comics, the point of the story was to show Matt's obsession with Daredevil and his inability to separate the two even when he was becoming the distraction. Vigilantism is also seen in a more positive light here (with the theme being, "New York needs Daredevil"). But it also sets up the conflict with Fisk, drawn from Charles Soule's run.
On the very ending (and some thoughts of the police throughout):
I'm loving the show isn't afraid to say that "cowboy cops" are idolizing the Punisher. Like it or not, the real world is full of examples of police officers who think the Punisher's tactics are great and view themselves as above the law in a similar fashion. Now there are plenty of arguments that the comics Punisher isn't that person, but that fact remains and I'm glad the show isn't afraid to tackle it. The ending is ambiguous about whether it's the Punisher or not. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think even the show's Punisher would be pro-crooked cop. But he is perfectly capable of getting things wrong and killing who he thinks is a cop killer who "got away with it." He always works best as the foil for Daredevil about how you can't be judge, jury, and executioner as a vigilante. I'd also point out that he doesn't wear a mask or hide his identity, which puts him in the camp of the police instead of White Tiger.
Overall, very positive episode. Looking forward to the next one.
Precisely. The episodes are not about the White Tiger, they're about how the White Tiger relates to Matt's current inner struggle with himself in the wake of Foggy dying. It's exceuted really well
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