Shameless

[Travesty]

Heh, if she loved Lip so much, she wouldn't have slept with Frank. Who loves someone so much that they sleep with their farther?

The show has made it incredibly obvious that she doesn't love Lip. Lip, on the other hand, was(and most likely still) in love with her.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Heh, if she loved Lip so much, she wouldn't have slept with Frank. Who loves someone so much that they sleep with their farther?

The show has made it incredibly obvious that she doesn't love Lip. Lip, on the other hand, was(and most likely still) in love with her.

Does Kev not love V?

Karen was trying to hurt her father, and possibly even Lip. I also think Lip had already called her a ****e, which she took very badly. When os the last time you watched the scene or the last few episodes of the first season? She realized what she did to Lip too late, which is why she is so upset about the "I Love you" stuff and Lip's reaction. Her reaction completely flies in the face of her not caring. There is a reason she asked them what they actually were earlier in the season. It also didn't help Lip's case that he was talking about keeping it casual while falling in love with her and thus took the Frank thing to heart.

Oh, and the actress has made it very clear Karen is in love with Lip.

 

[Maximus One]

I don't care what the actress says. She didn't write the part. Actions speak louder than words. You can argue all you want man but it isn't gonna change my opinion about the situation. It's blatantly obvious that Karen is only out for Karen. Look how she abandoned her kid! And I don't see how you can sit there and justify and rationalize away about Karen ****ing Frank, if that **** happened to me, it's straight to jail cuz I'd beat them both within an inch of their life. At least Lip got to pee on Frank though lol

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't care what the actress says. She didn't write the part. Actions speak louder than words. You can argue all you want man but it isn't gonna change my opinion about the situation. It's blatantly obvious that Karen is only out for Karen. Look how she abandoned her kid! And I don't see how you can sit there and justify and rationalize away about Karen ****ing Frank, if that **** happened to me, it's straight to jail cuz I'd beat them both within an inch of their life. At least Lip got to pee on Frank though lol

You don't think they discuss this stuff at table readings or on set?

Also, why do people ignore all that happened in the first season with Karen?

Karen not wanting her kid falls in line with her upbringing, where she has never been put first. It also matches up with her relationship with Shelia. Plenty of people do not want their children, but in her case it became a battle with her mother over whether she truly cared for her or not. Her mother and father constantly put themselves ahead of her emotionally. Shelia and her illness (which she proved she could over come if she truly wanted to) and her father and his own beliefs and reputation. She roped Frank in to taking her to Parent/Teacher night for Christ sake.

Shelia's apology in the last episode does not come from nowhere. Shelia picked the baby over her, just like she had put herself in front of Karen her whole life. It is extreme, but that is the way of Shameless.

What do I have to rationalize or justify? Lip was the one denying their relationship, without realizing he was already in love with her. If they aren't together, it doesn't matter who she sleeps with. She bangs Frank out of clear spite, and then suddenly Lip realizes it matters who she sleeps with. She also gave a BJ to Ian, and he didn't seem to mind. There is nothing to rationalize. It just proved Lip cared, and more importantly it proved it to himself.

I am not saying she isn't selfish, manipulative or self-destructive. She clearly is. But that doesn't mean she doesn't love Lip or her mother. He actions and reactions say the exact opposite.

 

[Travesty]

Yeah, if you show me a quote that the writers and directors say that she's still in love with Lip, I may be able to believe you. Because other than that, nothing in this show has shown any piece of evidence that she is even able to love anybody besides herself.

And where is this quote from?

 

[DACrowe]

Actually he was the only who actually tried to do something after. He just enjoyed it as well. And it has less to do with morals, and more to do with messing with someone he cares about. Like it or not, he cares for Karen.

You are actually going with "I hit her because she is mouthy" defense.

Karen is far from a monster. Is she manipulative? Yes. Is she self-centered? Completely. But there is some clear reasoning for how she is, and she most certainly isn't a killer.

Mandy is manipulative, self-centered and a lunatic. Horrible things have happened to her, but that doesn't suddenly entitle her to kill someone because she knows Lip doesn't care for her like he does Karen. Before Karen even showed up this season Mandy decided she was Lip's wife and was going to run his life.

Karen manipulates people to get what she wants. Mandy kills people to get what she wants.

Let's see Karen has:

1) Slept with a drunk Frank to piss her dad off.

2) Took a crap on her dad's grave...mind you, I thought the guy was a jerk and do not think this is a deal braker for the character, but she certainly does not come off as likable in that moment.

3) Married Jodie just because she was bored and wanted to take a dig at Lip, which is confirmed when she grows bored with Jodie and throws him out.

4) Forces her mother to choose between herself and a special needs grandchild who Karen would leave to the system, even though Sheila wants to take care of him. She then runs away when she doesn't get her way like the spoiled brat she is.

5) Only returns home when she lyingly and manipulatively has Hymie taken away from Sheila.

6) Manipulates Lip (who also has very little respect from me) into banging her in the bathroom while still dating Mandy.

7) Tells Mandy about it when Lip chooses Mandy, because she is a spiteful, evil woman.

8) Says, quite honestly, she plans to make Lip impregnate her with a sabotaged condom, so that he takes her with him if he goes to college.

9) Encourages Lip not to go to college.

All around, Karen is the most vile and unlikeable character in the series. That is saying something when Frank called Child Services on his own kids this season.

She does not love Lip, she only loves how she can control him and use him for her own entertainment, like she did with Jodie before she got bored and like she did with Sheila and is now doing again after she took Hymie away from her mother. Karen is a horrible, horrible human being. And in a show where your protagonists steal, intimidate and use violence when they can (did you hate Fiona for paying Mickey to beat the **** out of Cousin Patrick or for Lip planning to beat/maybe kill a child predator until he learned it was a hot woman teacher?), it makes Mandy running her over seem almost justified.

Granted, in real life something like that is horrible and Mandy was in the wrong. But how is Mandy a horrible girl when she ENCOURAGES Lip to go to college, even if he doesn't take her?! She wants Lip to make something of his genius and to do something with his life. Karen is a cancer who is only intent on sucking the life out of Lip, like Monica and Frank did to each other. If he stays in the South Side, which he will, that is his future on the show.

 

[Ultimatehero]

I'm going to have to line up with everyone else on Karen. She only looks after herself. And Lip shouldn't give her any more chances. She sleeps with his Dad. She leads him into believing the baby is his. She runs out even when Lip tells her she's going to regret it. He's given her enough chances.

Karen is clearly Karen particularly in how she reacted to the baby. There she didn't care about anyone but herself. And I don't see how "upbringing" can be called into action there. Her Mom might be a little crazy, but she's anything but a manipulative ***** lol.

 

[Maximus One]

None of what you said excuses her behavior. **** her upbringing. She is a piece of **** as a human being plain and simple. I used to like Karen in the first season actually but after seeing the emotionless monster that she is I just can't sympathize with her at all. She doesn't do anything to try and change and she does nothing but continue to manipulate Lip through Mandy and she got fed the **** up as would any sane person. You can't make excuses for an emotional vampire like her. She is how she is and that is just an absolutely deplorable human being. Do you forget that the whole time she was with Lip she was ****ing Himey's dad? And probably half the damn school. Lip never had any doubts as to what kind of person she is but just like every young man he fell in love. And in case you didn't watch this last episode Lip finally came to accept his feelings for Mandy that he's been denying and fighting all season long and he finally realized that Karen is nothing but bad for him. That being said, I do think Mandy might have messed things up with Lip now but I symapthize a **** ton more with her than Karen. I don't really wish death on Karen and I think hitting her with a ****ing car is harsh, she should've just gave her a good beat down honestly which was what I was expecting. I get that Karen wants to change and maybe this will be the catalyst for that change but as for now that's all hypothetical

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm going to have to line up with everyone else on Karen. She only looks after herself. And Lip shouldn't give her any more chances. She sleeps with his Dad. She leads him into believing the baby is his. She runs out even when Lip tells her she's going to regret it.

Why do you care that she slept with Frank? Why did Lip care? They weren't together right, so why does it matter?

Karen is clearly Karen particularly in how she reacted to the baby. There she didn't care about anyone but herself. And I don't see how "upbringing" can be called into action there. Her Mom might be a little crazy, but she's anything but a manipulative ***** lol.

If she doesn't care about anyone else, explain her reaction to her father, mother and Lip? If she doesn't care, they couldn't hurt her. But they have all done it.

There is a clear problem with Karen. It isn't simply that her mother was a little crazy, or that her father was a POS. Her relationship with them and how they treated her and her selfishness have plenty in common. She seeks attention because of it, and in a household where it is 2 parents who each only seem to care about themselves, a kid does that.

And Shameless, it goes to the extreme, just like everything else.

 

[Maximus One]

Couldn't have said it better myself DAcrowe

 

[DarthSkywalker]

None of what you said excuses her behavior. **** her upbringing. She is a piece of **** as a human being plain and simple. I used to like Karen in the first season actually but after seeing the emotionless monster that she is I just can't sympathize with her at all. She doesn't do anything to try and change and she does nothing but continue to manipulate Lip through Mandy and she got fed the **** up as would any sane person. You can't make excuses for an emotional vampire like her. She is how she is and that is just an absolutely deplorable human being. Do you forget that the whole time she was with Lip she was ****ing Himey's dad? And probably half the damn school. Lip never had any doubts as to what kind of person she is but just like every young man he fell in love. And in case you didn't watch this last episode Lip finally came to accept his feelings for Mandy that he's been denying and fighting all season long and he finally realized that Karen is nothing but bad for him. That being said, I do think Mandy might have messed things up with Lip now but I symapthize a **** ton more with her than Karen. I don't really wish death on Karen and I think hitting her with a ****ing car is harsh, she should've just gave her a good beat down honestly which was what I was expecting. I get that Karen wants to change and maybe this will be the catalyst for that change but as for now that's all hypothetical

You do realize Lip knew this right? He didn't know the specifics, but he knew she got around. She was engaged to Jody and he was still hitting it.

Also, since when was Mandy not guilty of the exact same thing?

Lip "accepting" Mandy was him doing his duty, doing what he thought was right. He doesn't love her and she knows it. That is why she hit Karen with the car. At this point, I think it is most likely that Lip ends up with neither of them, but I also think he isn't leaving anytime soon either. So there is the real possibility that Karen dies or is left a vegetable and Mandy either goes to prison or is is killed.

It is cute that so many act as if she some monster on this show with murders and the like. Does she use people? Yep. Everyone on this show does, including Deb. Does she lie, cheat and steal? Yep. So does everyone else on this show.

Mandy is every bit the vampire, she just works in a different way and it is hilarious how it is just ignored. There is a reason Fiona doesn't like her.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Let's see Karen has:
1) Slept with a drunk Frank to piss her dad off.

Why do people have such a problem with this? It is clear what she did and why she did it.

2) Took a crap on her dad's grave...mind you, I thought the guy was a jerk and do not think this is a deal braker for the character, but she certainly does not come off as likable in that moment.

Never said it did. But I don't know exactly how this makes her emotionless. If anything, it shows the exact opposite.

3) Married Jodie just because she was bored and wanted to take a dig at Lip, which is confirmed when she grows bored with Jodie and throws him out.

So she wanted to take a dig at Lip. Doesn't sound emotionless to me.

4) Forces her mother to choose between herself and a special needs grandchild who Karen would leave to the system, even though Sheila wants to take care of him. She then runs away when she doesn't get her way like the spoiled brat she is.

5) Only returns home when she lyingly and manipulatively has Hymie taken away from Sheila.

And? It is clear she is forcing Shelia to choose, and Shelia chose. She left.

And lets be real for a second. Sheila should not be raising a kid. She thought leaving him with Frank was okay. Sheila is horrible at raising kids. That he was taken from her was good thing.

6) Manipulates Lip (who also has very little respect from me) into banging her in the bathroom while still dating Mandy.

Manipulated?

7) Tells Mandy about it when Lip chooses Mandy, because she is a spiteful, evil woman.

8) Says, quite honestly, she plans to make Lip impregnate her with a sabotaged condom, so that he takes her with him if he goes to college.

Two girls fighting over a man, using outrageous words to hurt others? Not sure why this is a big deal. Even if it happened, it would be on Lip.

9) Encourages Lip not to go to college.

Lip does not need to go to college. I know it seems to be the "right thing", but there is a reason Lip keeps pushing back against it. It isn't what he wants. It might be best for him, but it isn't what he wants.

All around, Karen is the most vile and unlikeable character in the series. That is saying something when Frank called Child Services on his own kids this season.

Frank, has killed, so I am going to go with no. But if that is how you feel about her, that doesn't change her character.

She does not love Lip, she only loves how she can control him and use him for her own entertainment, like she did with Jodie before she got bored and like she did with Sheila and is now doing again after she took Hymie away from her mother. Karen is a horrible, horrible human being. And in a show where your protagonists steal, intimidate and use violence when they can (did you hate Fiona for paying Mickey to beat the **** out of Cousin Patrick or for Lip planning to beat/maybe kill a child predator until he learned it was a hot woman teacher?), it makes Mandy running her over seem almost justified.

I hate Fiona's whining and double standards. I hate Lip's self-pity. I hate both of their self-righteous behavior. The rest I just take as the extremes of the show. Except for murder.

The only "good" person on this show is Deb, and even that is starting to wavier a bit.

And yeah, she loves Lip and Shelia.

Granted, in real life something like that is horrible and Mandy was in the wrong. But how is Mandy a horrible girl when she ENCOURAGES Lip to go to college, even if he doesn't take her?! She wants Lip to make something of his genius and to do something with his life. Karen is a cancer who is only intent on sucking the life out of Lip, like Monica and Frank did to each other. If he stays in the South Side, which he will, that is his future on the show.

If you are going to throw around using people and violence, then yeah, you are a horrible person. Michael Corleone encouraged good things for his family. That didn't make him any less of a horrible person.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am not saying anyone has to like her. I do, but that is just me. I just think people ignore a lot of her storyline that doesn't paint her as an emotionless devil, who cares about nothing other then herself. The whole thing with Frank is something that many just take out of context. They went extreme in the second season overall, but I do think that it still fits with her first season characterization.

 

[CB Fan]

Yeah I definitely don't think that Karen is emotionless however she is a spoiled bratty **** and I can't believe she doesn't have AIDS or HIV yet.

Mandy isn't innocent in all this either however she has made her intentions quite clear about why she is so taken with Lip he is her ticket out and Darth whether you like it or not Lip doesn't choose Mandy just cause he feels its the right thing to do he does it because he loves her too and knows its the right thing for him and that as pushy as she is she only wants the best unlike Karen who discourages him from achieving his max potential in life.

None of these kids have been raised properly so to expect them to make rational decisions when emotionally compromised is a bit much Mandy handled her situation the best way she's been taught and Karen only acts out to get the attention she wants from those she loves.

 

[Maximus One]

I never said it didn't fit. Mandy has been faithful to Lip. Mandy has a heart. Karen does nothing but destroy everything and everybody around her to make herself feel better. That's her whole character. She's a little ****e. That's how ****s are in real life. They have a piece of them missing that the only way they know how to cope with being so damaged is to fill that hole with dick. That's how the world works. She may love Lip and she may even realize what she's done wrong (rewatching the scene as I type this) but that in no way excuses her behavior. Nothing excuses it. She's damages, boo ****ing hoo. Most people are. Maybe you've never had somebody like that in your life. Maybe you've never had an unhealthy relationship. I dunno but it kinda sounds like that because anybody that has ever been blinded by their love of a girl would understand all of this. That being said, it doesn't excuse Mandy's actions either but I can sympathize with Mandy waaaaay before I can Karen

 

[Maximus One]

Just like CB fan said, Lip does love Mandy. He may not have liked her pushiness but he does love her and realized that in this episode. I'm actually sad now though because I think Mandy may have destroyed anything they could ever have.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You do realize that Mandy has done the exact same thing right? She has slept with countless guys, and when they wouldn't sleep with her, she accuses them of rape.

 

[Maximus One]

Not Lip though! She may be a bit of a ****e but she has a heart and hasn't cheated on Lip. I don't care if a girl is a ****e, if she's a good chick and takes care of you and wants what's best for you then she's a keeper, plain and simple. Not only is Lip Mandy's ticket out, she's his ticket out as well because Karen don't give a ****. Karen just wants what she wants. She wants to control people. Maybe she was on the precipice of real change maybe not but as of right now and her established characterization she is a text book malignant narcissist and emotional vampire. She feeds off of attention, her sense of self is so warped that she doesn't even realize she does any of this. It's called Borderline Personality Disorder bro, it's real ****. Her characterization is spot on and quite brilliantly written and portrayed to be quite honest. But that's the difference between these two characters, Mandy knows what she wants and who she is and who she cares about and she is willing to fight and even kill if somebody threatens that. Karen would just mope and manipulate and lash out if she was in Mandy's shoes. Mandy keeps it real son! Karen is a two faced fake ass ****. I don't see how anybody could argue any of these points tbqh

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Not Lip though! She may be a bit of a ****e but she has a heart and hasn't cheated on Lip. I don't care if a girl is a ****e, if she's a good chick and takes care of you and wants what's best for you then she's a keeper, plain and simple. Not only is Lip Mandy's ticket out, she's his ticket out as well because Karen don't give a ****. Karen just wants what she wants. She wants to control people. Maybe she was on the precipice of real change maybe not but as of right now and her established characterization she is a text book malignant narcissist and emotional vampire. She feeds off of attention, her sense of self is so warped that she doesn't even realize she does any of this. It's called Borderline Personality Disorder bro, it's real ****. Her characterization is spot on and quite brilliantly written and portrayed to be quite honest. But that's the difference between these two characters, Mandy knows what she wants and who she is and who she cares about and she is willing to fight and even kill if somebody threatens that. Karen would just mope and manipulate and lash out if she was in Mandy's shoes. Mandy keeps it real son! Karen is a two faced fake ass ****. I don't see how anybody could argue any of these points tbqh

I love the idea of Mandy as honorable, because she knows what she is doing.

Also if Karen has a legit disorder, how does that make her bad person? If she doesn't know she is doing these things because she is so warped and cannot possibly understand what she is doing, how is that her being evil? It means she needs help.

Oh, and this might be were keeping it real goes wrong.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Any guy would be pissed if a girl they were at the very least friends with went behind their back, made a sex tape with their dad and hosted it online.

Sociopath. She cares about no one but herself. She only is hurt because what others want goes against what she wants. And if she doesn't get what she wants instantly, she becomes upset. That's not showing caring, that's showing it's her way or screw everybody else under the bus. She has yet to show one person that she loves them. She has yet to show any caring side towards one person at all. You can say anything you want about the other character manipulating - people manipulate all the time, it's just what we do - but at least the characters and most people show that they care about others and aren't just working to get what they want all the time. Karen is "me, me, me" taken to the extreme that no other character - not even Frank - has fallen to.

The writers are writing her as a ***** for a reason, she's an antagonist. We're supposed to hate her, we're not supposed to root for her. Karen is more or less a measuring stick for how low someone can go.

And this new thing? Karen's back in town, she wants to come back into Lip's life and act like nothing's happened since she's back again and wants a guy in her life. Lip's just -- there -- for her. The second he walks away from her she tries to throw his life into disarray not because she cares about him and loves him, just because she wants him. And there's a big difference between the two. Overall, she views people as objects that can be bought, sold, and bartered with not as anything else.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Is it possible to just talk about the show without the discussion devolving into a "Who's Better For Lip?!" debate?

 

[Maximus One]

Hi, welcome to the Internet! Can any discussion about a show or comics or a movie be anything but irrational?? Come on now man

 

[Maximus One]

Anyways, I'm not gonna argue anymore about it. I'm in no way acting like Mandy is a saint. Everything I've said is just how it is. Karen is a piece of **** plain and simple and how anybody on this planet could defend such a person is beyond me.

 

[Travesty]

Hah, this thread barely has life to it, and when people are actually engaging in discussion, someone complains.

 

[Maximus One]

Lol that's exactly what I was thinking man.