Should more villains have more expanded back stories?

The Overlord

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In a recent issue of Daredevil, Mole Man's back story was expanded upon and it made his character seem a little more developed and compelling.

Should they do that with more villains? It seems like a lot of villains just showed up back in the Silver Age and just started robbing banks for no reason.
 
Well it really depends. Not every bad guy needs to have some sob story. If it's relevant to the plot then tell it.
 
They did it in Spider-Man 2 with Doc Ock and it worked great. Then they went overboard and made the Sandman Uncle Ben's killer in S-M 3
 
Well it really depends. Not every bad guy needs to have some sob story. If it's relevant to the plot then tell it.

Not all villains need a sob story persay, but they need a good reason why they are villains.

I think a villain's motive makes sense if their objectives are illegal, killing people is illegal, so a villain who likes to kill people for fun has goals that naturally make him or her a criminal. Likewise trying to take over the world, will often involve several illegal actions, so there the goal conflicts with the law. A villain who feels wronged and wants revenge on someone will often break the law to achieve that goal.

But with the robbing banks, the end goal is simply to make a lot of money. Society has no problem with people who want to make a bunch of money and a lot of these villains have tech or powers that would allow them to make a ton of money legitimately. So have they have the ability to become millionaires legitimately, why are they making their lives harder by robbing banks in a city full of super heroes?
 
Well it really depends. Not every bad guy needs to have some sob story. If it's relevant to the plot then tell it.
I agree with that.

It's long as its necessary to the story, and is, y'know, good, it's a good idea.

At the same time, they shouldn't start scrambling to humanize every villain they can think of, either.
 
yeah.. i think some characters like Nightmare, we almost have got too much backstory
 
Maybe
Joke villains should remain jokes
 
Eh, tech powered guys robbing banks with stuff they could easily make money off of if they sold it is a phenomena that exists due to many factors. Take the Vulture for instance. He lost all his money (Made off of said inventions) too a snake who embezzled millions from him. So, he took the tech he had and decided to turn to a life of crime. Sure, he coulda used that flight harness of his to make his money back by selling to the Military, but instead, he went for the glitz and glamor of super villainy. One of the key motivators for the costumed villain set is a thirst for fame. Not focused upon that much, but it's there. Toomes was a nobody all his life. Sure he made some money, played by the rules, and lost everything. More than money, he wanted respect. He wanted to be feared. No reason to go any further for his motivations. Guy just wanted respect. But, he didn't get it. Got his ass kicked a lot by a teenager who reminded him he was a nobody at every juncture. Which then turned to revenge, and a flat out need cuz he was already arrested. A felon. Couldn't make any money legally anymore. It was all he had. Doesn't need to be that deep. Sometimes, it's all a person has left.
 
I think all characters, period, usually benefit from an extended back story. It helps get into their perspective and understand them better. Some of the more hum-drum villains could easily do with a little more padding out.

I mean, look what Christos Gage did for a Z-List Dazzler villain like Johnny Guitar in roughly half an issue of AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE. I barely knew who he was at the start, and by the end I was feeling sorry for him. That isn't to say that EVERY villain need some tragedy or sob story, but rare is the character who doesn't benefit from some more knowledge about where they came from to help explain where they're going and why.

I do agree that some characters are OVER-explained, but that usually happens for the more popular ones. Wolverine's once mysterious past is now an overdone mess, for example, and that was BEFORE the whole Romulus stuff with Danial Way.

I feel villains should not only have extended back stories when possible, but some attempt should be made to evolve them, have them at least try to get better every time, to force the hero to be better. There's room for stubborn or gag villains, but the problem with many rogues galleries is you have a few at the top (who get overused, made into heroes, or both), and you have bottom feeders with little in between.

Also, Marvel having events that didn't focus so much on hero infighting would help. :p
 
Eh, tech powered guys robbing banks with stuff they could easily make money off of if they sold it is a phenomena that exists due to many factors. Take the Vulture for instance. He lost all his money (Made off of said inventions) too a snake who embezzled millions from him. So, he took the tech he had and decided to turn to a life of crime. Sure, he coulda used that flight harness of his to make his money back by selling to the Military, but instead, he went for the glitz and glamor of super villainy. One of the key motivators for the costumed villain set is a thirst for fame. Not focused upon that much, but it's there. Toomes was a nobody all his life. Sure he made some money, played by the rules, and lost everything. More than money, he wanted respect. He wanted to be feared. No reason to go any further for his motivations. Guy just wanted respect. But, he didn't get it. Got his ass kicked a lot by a teenager who reminded him he was a nobody at every juncture. Which then turned to revenge, and a flat out need cuz he was already arrested. A felon. Couldn't make any money legally anymore. It was all he had. Doesn't need to be that deep. Sometimes, it's all a person has left.

But Vulture does have a back story, you just mentioned it. There are lots of tech villains out there who just showed up one day and started robbing banks. Trapster could make more money simply selling his glue rather then trying to use it to commit crimes. There was a non canon story in a novel released in the 90s where Trapster tried to reform and sell his glue under a false identity, with Wizard trying to ruin his new life out of spite. To me that is more interesting then another story where Trapster tries to rob a bank or joins the Frightful Four.

I also think you can often make more stories with a villain who has a expanded back story then one who doesn't and just seems to rob banks for no reason. Magneto became more interesting when he was made into a victim of the Holocaust. Let's take some random D-list villain like say Jester from Daredevil. In the Silver age Jester was a terrible actor who tried to improve his craft by studying tumbling and fencing, instead of taking acting lessons and then he was mad people didn't like his bad performances. I think I would retcon then that, so Jester was originally a good actor, but was screwed over by a director or another actor. That gives Jester a legitimate reason to hate someone else, instead of just being too stupid to realize that acting lessons are needed to become a good actor. Plus DD having protect a very unlikable person would be an interesting story.
 
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I'd be fine with more villains getting backstories, but it doesn't seem overly necessary to me. In a few cases, it can actually be a major detriment to the character: Taskmaster kind of sucks now that Fred Van Lente gave him such a stupid backstory, for example.
 
But Vulture does have a back story, you just mentioned it. There are lots of tech villains out there who just showed up one day and started robbing banks. Trapster could make more money simply selling his glue rather then trying to use it to commit crimes. There was a non canon story in a novel released in the 90s where Trapster tried to reform and sell his glue under a false identity, with Wizard trying to ruin his new life out of spite. To me that is more interesting then another story where Trapster tries to rob a bank or joins the Frightful Four.


Actually, Pete tried to sell a stolen American Missile to some Russians as his first venture. He was always a criminal. Some people are just criminals. Getting his ass handed to him by the Torch turned it into a revenge thing, and as I said, like most costumed villains, he craved the attention.
 
I think better-developed villains can make a hero's rogue gallery better. I think Geoff Johns had overhauled Flash's rogue gallery for the better, and if the villains are great, the hero will be the beneficiary of that. Writers should take a good look at Superman, Batman, and Spider-man's villains and take some lesson from those characters and why they work so well.
 
In a recent issue of Daredevil, Mole Man's back story was expanded upon and it made his character seem a little more developed and compelling.

Should they do that with more villains? It seems like a lot of villains just showed up back in the Silver Age and just started robbing banks for no reason.
No. Fred Van Lente ruined Taskmaster by doing this.
 
Fact is, it's good to add to a villains back story, when it's a good addition. Mister Freeze in BTAS? Good. Norman Osborne having kids with Gwen Stacy? Bad. Captain Cold and his sister being physically and mentally abused by his hero cop father? Good. Dr Light being a rapist who got lobotomized by the League? Bad.
 
Actually, Pete tried to sell a stolen American Missile to some Russians as his first venture. He was always a criminal. Some people are just criminals. Getting his ass handed to him by the Torch turned it into a revenge thing, and as I said, like most costumed villains, he craved the attention.

But he made his glue before he tried to steal that missile, he could have made millions legitimately. There was never an indication that he had a criminal record before he became a super villain, we cannot assume and wanting revenge on the Torch for foiling his poorly thought crimes, when he could have made millions legitimately, is a very stupid motive. None of this makes him threatening or compelling, it just makes him seem pathetic and not in a sympathetic way.

Why couldn't he have gotten attention as a eccentric millionaire? Richard Branson pulls crazy stunts to get attention, but he never goes jail or gets beat up at the end of the day. Plus the attention Trapster gets is never positive, he is not a famous and feared villain like Dr. Doom. Most people just seem treat with mild contempt, is that attention, to the be the punchline in a joke?

In Trapster's criminal career, he has been beaten up, humiliated, gone to prison, treated with no respect, was exposed to Ghost Rider's penance stare, was the subject of a nation wide man hunt and two people he considered his friends tried to murder him. Frankly the reasons you mentioned are not enough to justify him staying a villain after all that, he needs a better motive to stay a villain after all that. Also the story I mentioned, with Trapster reforming was really well done, so its shame it is not made official canon, so they can do more cliched stories with him robbing banks or joining the f'rightful Four again. If trapster tried to reform and failed or tried to market his glue before becoming a criminal, goes that he grow and change as a character, not just make the same mistakes over and over again and not learn from them.


No. Fred Van Lente ruined Taskmaster by doing this.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Just because giving a back story to one villain didn't work, doesn't mean it won't work for others. Wasn't Magneto a better character, once they gave him the Holocaust victim back story? I think there some villains who don't need a big back story, I don't really care about Bullseye's back story for example, but think there a lot of others who could use one and that giving them one would lead to more story possibilities, not less.
 
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At the same time, because of all that, he can't not be a villain anymore. Hell, his first bit was technically high treason. No eccentric Billionaire crap with that. Ship has sailed already. So, what else is he supposed to do? That's right. Rob banks, join up with an abusive father figure to get some payback against the FF, and the occasional wet work.

Everybody doesn't have to be a guy with a tragic past that coulda went either way. You need the bums. The nobodies. The why bothers. So the special ones can stand out. If everybodies special, then nobody is.
 
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At the same time, because of all that, he can't not be a villain anymore. Hell, his first bit was technically high treason. No eccentric Billionaire crap with that. Ship has sailed already. So, what else is he supposed to do? That's right. Rob banks, join up with an abusive father figure to get some payback against the FF, and the occasional wet work.

Everybody doesn't have to be a guy with a tragic past that coulda went either way. You need the bums. The nobodies. The why bothers. So the special ones can stand out. If everybodies special, then nobody is.

Trapster got a pardon for his high treason crime when he helped the Avengers foil Baron Zemo and the first incarnation of the Masters of Evil. He could have walked away then, but he didn't, despite his villainous career being a failure at that point.

Also why did that ship sail? Why did decide becoming a villain was a good idea in the first place? I'm not saying he needs a tragic past, but maybe a better explanation of why he is who he. If they aren't going to do that, they should just demote to him comic relief villain and stop putting him on the Frightful Four. If Trapster is just a bum, I don't see how he works as a villain, his gimmick just is not threatening. He doesn't really work as generic goon villain, one because he supposed to be intelligent and thus shouldn't be just a goon and two because there a villain thug villains who are far more threatening then he is. I don't see why we need so many bums and losers, given a character the occasional chance to shine doesn't diminish other characters. No one would want a super hero to just be a bum and nobody, why do we need so many villains to fill that role, just so the same A-list villains can continue to hog the lime light and continue to be over exposed? How does one decide why villains should be special and which ones should be nobodies? Villains like Magneto and Kingpin became "special" then they were revamped by Claremont and Miller. Even some obscure villains like Gladiator (Melvin Potter) got more of a push as a character, compared to other villains. What makes Gladiator more special then Trapster?

His life as villain brought all that unhappiness to him and we never got a decent explanation as to why he decided to become a villain in the first place. All that stuff should motivate him to change his life, not continue on a path that brought him nothing but sorrow in the first place. Unless he is a masochist, him staying a villain makes no sense. Its like he has some sort of anti common sense, even a total idiot like Rhino makes fewer mistakes then he does and Trapster is supposed to be intelligent.

Even most super villains are sane enough not to intentionally pick a fight with Ghost Rider and yet he decided that was a good idea. He wanted revenge on Ghost Rider for foiling a robbery, when most villains would happy that they survived a fight with Ghost Rider in one piece. Most Trapster's revenge schemes don't make any sense. Trapster wouldn't have been exposed to the penance stare if he hadn't tried to get revenge on Ghost Rider for a very pointless grudge. It seems like that experience should have scared him straight, at least a little, but other writers seem to have ignored it and the psychological implications it would have. If there is some sort personal demon that forces him to do these insanely self destructive things, that should be explored. To me Trapster trying and failing to reform would explain his actions better. At least his failure at reforming could explain why he continues on this path, he tried to change his life, but since he failed, he feels he cannot change it.

I do think the fact that Trapster seems determined to stay on this path, despite all the evidence saying it is the wrong path for him, needs more exploration then the reasons you have given, they just don't explain this level of insane determination to engage in completely self destructive behavior. If you read the novel story where Trapster tries to reform, you may think its a good story.
 
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Taskmaster kind of sucks now that Fred Van Lente gave him such a stupid backstory, for example.

I wholeheartedly disagree on that one. I greatly enjoyed the TASKMASTER mini series from FVL and I think the tragic back story works for him. Especially since as part of it, Taskmaster will often forget it and return to his usual morally ambiguous ways. I thought it worked better than him being a nameless bad-ass. He's still a bad-ass but there's more to him. Taskmaster can still be written as a smart, cunning, and dangerous operative even with the back story.
 
Honestly I doubt the back story will ever be mentioned again.I enjoyed the story but it's quite easy to ignore.
 
I wholeheartedly disagree on that one. I greatly enjoyed the TASKMASTER mini series from FVL and I think the tragic back story works for him. Especially since as part of it, Taskmaster will often forget it and return to his usual morally ambiguous ways. I thought it worked better than him being a nameless bad-ass. He's still a bad-ass but there's more to him. Taskmaster can still be written as a smart, cunning, and dangerous operative even with the back story.
Yeah, I know you liked it. We argued about it while the series was coming out. Personally, I think Taskmaster as one of Marvel's few true blue-collar villains who just realized he had a skill and decided to put it to use making himself rich was backstory enough. He's a simple villain with simple motivations and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The fallen SHIELD agent thing just adds a tragic dimension that's entirely unnecessary and serves to clutter up a previously streamlined formula that worked perfectly. The constant forgetting thing came off as a stupid gimmick to me, too.
 
Yeah, I know you liked it. We argued about it while the series was coming out. Personally, I think Taskmaster as one of Marvel's few true blue-collar villains who just realized he had a skill and decided to put it to use making himself rich was backstory enough. He's a simple villain with simple motivations and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The fallen SHIELD agent thing just adds a tragic dimension that's entirely unnecessary and serves to clutter up a previously streamlined formula that worked perfectly. The constant forgetting thing came off as a stupid gimmick to me, too.

The beauty of it, though, is that Taskmaster can still be a blue collar villain with simple motivations regardless. You could almost argue that FVL made that origin tailor made to be omitted or not mentioned much or even ignored by subsequent stories, and that's okay. You could argue the most essential cog is the source of Taskmaster's power and a real name, which, again, doesn't have to come up again.

For the record, Christos Gage has played with that angle in AVENGERS ACADEMY, especially since Finesse is heavily suspected as being his daughter. Of course, Echo from DAREDEVIL and NEW AVENGERS has essentially the same ability without a similar source, so who knows.
 

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