Snyder's NOT a "visionary"

[블라스]

I :heart: Fenrir.

 

[The Guard]

Care to mention a few films that had a structure like Memento? Because I find your response contradictory in the sense that you say Memento's structure is different yet at the same time maintain that it's been done before. So which one is it?

You want me to mention a few films that have a structure like MEMENTO? I can't. MEMENTO is the only film that I can recall that has this particular structure.

But non linear films? Films that play with timelines? Dozens.

I don't find turning the film around in an obvious way to be brilliant. Different? Sure. Clever. Sure. Brilliant? No.

Then you simply weren't paying attention. Angier's twist was obvious the very first time Tesla tested his machine on the hats and the cat.

Yes, that was fairly obvious.

I don't even consider Angier's "twist" a twist in the usual sense, as it was broadcast a little more than halfway through the film.

And the Chinaman's "trick" alongwith Cutter beating it into the audiences head that Borden uses a double, Borden's trick was completely laid bare just like Angier's.

The Chinaman's trick talks about living your life for your trick.There's no reason to believe at this point in the movie that Alfred Borden has a secret brother.

And yes, the movie keeps flat out telling the audience what is going on. That's all well and good. It isn't particularly brilliant, either.

You dismiss the explanations the film gives you throughout (and repeatedly at that) because like Angier we were all expecting some crazy humongous and utterly remarkable feat behind The Transported Man of both illusionists, instead of settling for the obvious. "You want to be fooled".

I want to be fooled...how?

I wasn't expecting anything terribly remarkable (other than in terms of character, because it's obvious Bale was "living his magic").

I figured Borden had a double, because he wasn't using Angier's sci fi methodology, and he must have had one. Did I suspect he had a twin brother, which ended up being the true, less obvious to audiences twist?

No. Why would I? At what point in the film was a brother even mentioned or hinted at? Why would I, in a film that is not loaded with cliches, suddenly hit upon the most "cliche" way of doubling up oneself there is as the reasoning behind Borden's duality?

If you were fooled or were thinking that Nolan was even trying to fool the audience, then I feel sorry for you.

I sort of thought the sarcasm in the "Boy, Nolan sure fooled us" would have been apparent. There is no "fooling". There's just a reveal at the end of the movie of a twist element that, to the best of my knowledge, was never actually introduced prior in the film.

The scene where the imprisoned Borden says "I'm sorry about Sarah" was a dead giveaway.

Yes. That WAS a dead giveaway. I'm not saying I was confused by the meaning of that element. I'm saying Nolan's big "reveal" that Borden had a twin brother wasn't brilliant. Nor was his execution of the "dual identities/double" theme.

The entire third act is filled to the brim with clear revelations to the audience about both magicians.

This is true.

The final "reveal" was simply reaffirming those suspicions. That's what magic is all about. The magicians don't deceive the audience. They do the whole act right in front of their eyes. What they actually do is simply redirect the audience's focus away from where it should be. And that's what Nolan did.

Yes, that's all well and good. You don't need to explain this to me, because again, the movie is not brilliant. It does not require hours of thought to figure out. I'm not talking about the moment of "reveal" not being brilliant. I'm talking about the entire method behind the twist, and the way it was built up not being brilliantly executed. It's clever enough. But not brilliant.

That's exactly what The Prestige did! Weren't you paying attention? And it not only just gave clues, but almost flat out gave away the entire reveal at times. Cutter was damn right. "You are not really looking"

Where was the clue that Borden had a twin brother?

Oh, that guy they told us was his assistant wasn't? Oh. Because you know, the natural assumption, faced with a new character, is that it must be a secret twin brother.

Obviously you all think I'm referring to "the moment of reveal". I am not. I am referring to the plot's gradual reveal of the "twist". I should have chosen my words more carefully, but I maintain my belief that the twist and the method of revealing it, while clever, is not particularly brilliant.

 

[roach]

Also, I find it really annoying that its suddenly become hip and cool to talk down about Chris Nolan's achievements now that he has become a "populist director" just because he has made two Batman films and a billion dollar blockbuster. It's such a childish, juvenile attitude. I mean, go through the web archives circa 2004 or earlier to see the kind of superlative praises these 'connoisseurs' of cinema showered at Christopher Nolan before he was signed to direct Batman Begins. It is downright laughable how their tone changed from "Revolutionary!" back then to "meh, nothing special". Ah, the stuck up hypocrisy of the self-proclaimed elite in trying to set themselves apart from the likes of us lowly common folk never ceases to amaze me.

dude its all cycles. One year they are on George Lucas nuts the next he is a hack. Same Spielberg. Watch in a few years Nolan will be the new pariah talked about in the same sentence as Michael Bay. The same people worship Ledger's Joker will be scorning it in a few years.

 

[Anita18]

That said I do plan to go see Watchmen. But I find 300 lame. People talk about it like it's f'n Spartacus or something.

I don't get people who talk about 300 like it's the best or worst of anything. The marketing made it clear it was going to be a fun, ridiculous romp with macho guys and action. (What else can you expect from Frank Miller? ) I thought it had cool visuals, and I enjoyed it for all it was. Not to knock Snyder or anything - the source material didn't really have a lot to it anyway.

Snyder is visionary in the same way Burton is visionary. Both have a particular visual style, but it's not like their work is necessarily inspiring other filmmakers the way, say, Kurosawa's or Spielberg's did.

Nolan isn't as visionary in that definition, but I've never seen anyone consider structure so deliberately in their storytelling. His films practically invite you to watch them again to pick the storyline apart and see how it's constructed.

The way Memento or The Prestige reveal their twists is not the same as the way Shyamalan revealed the twist in The Sixth Sense. For The Sixth Sense, there are certain clues that appear repeatedly and can be obvious when you see it again. Like, Dr. Malcolm wears the same clothes throughout the entire film, and he only converses with Cole after the shooting. For those who notice those things, the twist may be obvious, but all Shymalan needs to do is not mention those two things and most people won't notice.

For the Nolan films, he has the character say or do certain things that may invite suspicion, but it's not something that he necessarily gets in front of the camera repeatedly. Like, Borden doesn't remember which knot he tied and Sarah can tell when he really loves her and when he doesn't. Even Borden's reaction to Sarah's pregnancy ("We should tell Fallon!") is a clue that Nolan gives the audience. There's a very deliberate system of reveal there.

 

[Fenrir]

You want me to mention a few films that have a structure like MEMENTO? I can't. MEMENTO is the only film that I can recall that has this particular structure.

But non linear films? Films that play with timelines? Dozens.

I don't find turning the film around in an obvious way to be brilliant. Different? Sure. Clever. Sure. Brilliant? No.

Way to bring up a tangent that no one ever mentioned or even hinted at. Who said that Memento is a brilliant film because it was the FIRST to play with timelines or the first non-linear film? I said Memento is a brilliant film because of its unique structure and how seamlessly it is integrated in the story to reflect the protagonists own state of mind thereby putting the audience right in his shoes.

And yes, the movie keeps flat out telling the audience what is going on. That's all well and good. It isn't particularly brilliant, either.

No, that part of my post wasn't about brilliance. It was a refutation of your ill-conceived point that the film doesn't give any hints or clues to the audience. Your unintended admission in this regard is hilarious.

I figured Borden had a double, because he wasn't using Angier's sci fi methodology, and he must have had one. Did I suspect he had a twin brother, which ended up being the true, less obvious to audiences twist?

How is Borden having a twin brother and him using a double any different in terms of explaining the secret to Borden's transported man?

No. Why would I? At what point in the film was a brother even mentioned or hinted at? Why would I, in a film that is not loaded with cliches, suddenly hit upon the most "cliche" way of doubling up oneself there is as the reasoning behind Borden's duality?

Because that was the bloody point. "The secret impresses no one". It's unflattering, simple and obvious.

Yes. That WAS a dead giveaway. I'm not saying I was confused by the meaning of that element. I'm saying Nolan's big "reveal" that Borden had a twin brother wasn't brilliant. Nor was his execution of the "dual identities/double" theme.

Why don't ever try and keep up with the points you're addressing? In terms of content alone, The Prestige is hardly anything special. Just like Memento. It's their unique structures and how deeply they are integrated to the plot that makes them brilliant.

Yes, that's all well and good. You don't need to explain this to me, because again, the movie is not brilliant. It does not require hours of thought to figure out.

Why would you require hours and hours of thought to figure out something that the film already makes obvious a number of times? Unless of course, you're a colossal dumbass.

You want to spend hours of thought into The Prestige? Try figuring out which Borden brother is in which scene of the film and how many aspects one is different from the other.

I'm not talking about the moment of "reveal" not being brilliant. I'm talking about the entire method behind the twist, and the way it was built up not being brilliantly executed. It's clever enough. But not brilliant.

I'd call it brilliant when Nolan manages to bring the entire story to its 'revealing' climax and maintain the surprise, despite almost completely giving away the 'twist' a number of times before in the film.

Where was the clue that Borden had a twin brother? Oh, that guy they told us was his assistant wasn't? Oh. Because you know, the natural assumption, faced with a new character, is that it must be a secret twin brother.

The 'twist' was about the secret of these two magicians, about HOW they did their tricks. And Borden's secret was given away countless number of times when the film states he uses a double. Borden clearly hints at this in his interactions with other characters. Cutter and especially Olivia come right out and say it. Borden having a brother was the EXPLANATION for his double, which would logically be revealed at the end. You are asking for the writer/director to explain the twist to the audience before revealing it, which is a dumb demand to begin with.

Even Angier says "Cutter knew, but I said it was too simple, too easy". Is he saying that Cutter knew Borden had a brother? Of course not. He knew that Borden was using a double. That's what Borden's secret (and the reveal) was all about :whether or not he was using a double. And the film honestly gives clear hints that he was.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I think the problem here is, none of you even really know what "visionary" means. You are giving it waaaaaay to much credit, acting like its the title for a god of cinema. Its not. At all.


Visionary:
noun
1. a person given to fanciful speculations and enthusiasms with little regard for what is actually possible
2. having the nature of fantasies or dreams; illusory

 

[Spider-Who?]

All this talk about so-and-so's brother...you shoulda been putting spoiler tags...I (and I'm sure others) have yet to see that flick...

 

[WeaponXProject]

What's the point of arguing over what film is "brilliant" or not? It's a point of view. It could be simply explained that Memento was impressive enough to carry Nolan to where he is now and he is a top tier director.




As for Snyder being a visionary...we'll that's a stretch. He makes good comic to film translations. Considering you get 2 to 3 hours of film length that's pretty impressive. If anything, he should be credited for making films for fans which is why I like and respect him. He's done good job so far and Watchmen looks promising. But back to Visionary...he made one visual film and did so well but that's just one. I don't know, it was too early to judge him as a "visionary"...

Edit: Spike Jonze is a visionary, Michele Gondry is a visionary and Tim Burton can also be considered visionary...they are leaps ahead of Snyder on the visionary aspect.

 

[luke1234]

Yeah i dont know yet about Zack being a visonary. the director needs to have his own look his own interpretation that really stands out with artistic vibrancy. Spike Jonez is up there, I would say Guimerro has his own look, Terry Gilliam, Tim Burton, and maybe Peter Jackson.

 

[Anita18]

You want to spend hours of thought into The Prestige? Try figuring out which Borden brother is in which scene of the film and how many aspects one is different from the other.

The 'twist' was about the secret of these two magicians, about HOW they did their tricks. And Borden's secret was given away countless number of times when the film states he uses a double. Borden clearly hints at this in his interactions with other characters. Cutter and especially Olivia come right out and say it. Borden having a brother was the EXPLANATION for his double, which would logically be revealed at the end. You are asking for the writer/director to explain the twist to the audience before revealing it, which is a dumb demand to begin with.

Even Angier says "Cutter knew, but I said it was too simple, too easy". Is he saying that Cutter knew Borden had a brother? Of course not. He knew that Borden was using a double. That's what Borden's secret (and the reveal) was all about :whether or not he was using a double. And the film honestly gives clear hints that he was.

Figuring out which brother is in which scene is actually quite do-able, which is incredibly fun.

And yeah, the film goes right out and SAYS it several times. What Angier refuses to believe is the extent of the sacrifice the two men make because of it.

All this talk about so-and-so's brother...you shoulda been putting spoiler tags...I (and I'm sure others) have yet to see that flick...

 

[dark_b]

to be a visionar to me you will need to make a movie that stands out.

maybe bad example but something like seven? maybe Guimerro? Burton in the 80's and 90's?

Snyder made an entertaining movie with 300. with watchmen? i see very cliche hero poses and tons of slowmotion. nothing wrong with that but nothing new to me.

 

[WeaponXProject]

maybe bad example but something like seven? maybe Guimerro? Burton in the 80's and 90's?

I think those are good examples. Maybe Alex Proyas should be in this talk to even though Knowing looks like I'll pass on that.

 

[Doomed_hero]

Notreally sure why people find him to be a visionary. He has taken a graphic novel which was driven by movie and from I have seen made it into a popcorn action flick with Matrix moves. That is really not visionary. Wehn Lucas put out a movie everyone thought was going to fail in a era when that kind of movie was unpopular, thats a visionary, not copying someone elses work and adding some action scenes.

 

[Fenrir]

Figuring out which brother is in which scene is actually quite do-able, which is incredibly fun.

Of course it is doable, but it also takes a little bit of time since some scenes aren't as obvious as the others. It also shows just what a goddamn amazing actor Christian Bale is. It's clearly his best and most unappreciated role. He was given the enormous task to play two completely different persons in a way that would make them seem as a single character to the audience at first sight, yet upon subsequent viewings would reveal subtle layers of varied performances beneath the same look.

If you pay attention, you can notice that Alfred/Borden is the quieter, more down-to-earth brother. He speaks in a calmer and hushed tone, cared more about his wife and kid. Even though he seemed less concerned and obsessed over the rivalry with Angier, he was in all probability the superior magician of the two brothers. Fallon was the brother who used to f**k everything up. Like ruining the lives of both Alfred and Angier's wives, nosing around and sabotaging Angier's tricks. The more impulsive and obsessive twin.

God, I love The Prestige.

 

[Octoberist]

I think those are good examples. Maybe Alex Proyas should be in this talk to even though Knowing looks like I'll pass on that.

Ever since Dark City, he's been struggling to find that 'autheurship' that he once has.

For a while, I was rooting for him for a movie like Green Lantern but as of late, I've been losing faith in him.

If Knowing sucks, then that would be a shame. I was p*ssed that they changed the format of 'Knowing': It was suppose to be crayon pictures of world evens that occured, not numbers. Number decoding has been done to DEATH already.

 

[BlackLantern]

2+2= OMG Disasterz!!!!!!11!!!!

 

[JP]

Snyder is not a visionary and he also lacks any ounce of creativity.

 

[BlackLantern]

Id like to see how he does on a film that isn't an adaptation....I have no issue with the guy and I really don't get a lot of the internet hate he gets, because that's where Ive seen all criticism of him come from....the INTERNET

I want to see what he does with just a script....no comics, no GNs

 

[Episode29]

Snyder is not a visionary and he also lacks any ounce of creativity.

...Says the anonymous dude on the internet.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Snyder is not a visionary and he also lacks any ounce of creativity.

True, and False

 

[WeaponXProject]

2+2= OMG Disasterz!!!!!!11!!!!

Hahahahaha

Snyder is not a visionary and he also lacks any ounce of creativity.

See I agree he's not a visionary but he is still creative to take on the task of bringing 300 and Watchmen to life. He is creative that he doesn't cast big names and great actors but rather fuels on the story and the visuals. I'm still surprised 300 was good and I am still shocked that Watchmen is about to hit theaters. Not that it's impossible to do...it's just a big risk.

He's not a visionary but maybe he will be some day.

 

[Episode29]

Anyone who has seen the opening of Dawn of the Dead can tell that Snyder is a pretty creative visual stylist.

 

[WeaponXProject]

Anyone who has seen the opening of Dawn of the Dead can tell that Snyder is a pretty creative visual stylist.

It's the best scene in the movie by far. I remember when the first 10 minutes were released on T.V. and I was astonished as the camera zoomed out to show the aerial view and all the chaos all over.

 

[Gilpesh]

Anyone who has seen the opening of Dawn of the Dead can tell that Snyder is a pretty creative visual stylist.

What did he do with it afterward? Absolutely nothing but cliches.

 

[Episode29]

What did he do with it afterward? Absolutely nothing but cliches.

Notice that I said "creative VISUAL stylist".