So, exactly how much music is Chris Young composing?

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Based on the 7 minute preview, the only original composition I heard was the Peter vs. Harry fight. And, even that featured some Elfman stuff. I also heard the Peter/MJ love theme. Didn't Young say he was composing a new love theme? So, why is Elfman version featured?

Interesting.
 
I'm pretty sure all the established themes that have relevance for the movie will be re-used by Young.
 
Translation: Not much original music.
 
I'm not too proud of the Tom and Jerry music that played with Harry and Peter.:down
 
The music was much better than any action scene music from the first film. Elfman doesn't know how to compose action music. For the first time, I was watching Spider-Man and didn't once think of Batman or Beetle-Juice. It's refreshing.
 
I agree with Visionary on this one. The train sequence in Spidey 2 was written by Young himself.

I don't think Elfman has ever been good with fighting music, and I think Young has all ready proven himself with a lot of Spidey 2 *which he was uncredited for a lot*.

I liked this music way better then the action music in 2 or 1, not saying their bad, but this was great music.
 
Young is composing the entire score based on Elfman's themes (you can hear the goblin theme many times in the Harry/Peter's fight). Elfman is not involded in any way anymore.
Although, you can count on Raimi to use some cues from the previous films...:whatever:


I'll have a question for Visionary : I agree, the cue for the Harry/Peter's fight is nice though heavily repetitive and also EXTREMELY close to the music Young composed for the train sequence in SM2 (at first, I though it was just temp tracking). I guess you didn't notice that ?
Because if you accuse Danny Elfman of being always repeating himself, you possibly CAN'T deny that Young is already quoting himself while he only wrote two cues for SM2.

Don't get me wrong, Young is a fine composer (the cue represents his style) and I'll buy the score cd. But what makes Elfman (and others composers like Williams, Shore or JNH) what he is, it is his ability to propose a great diversity in his writing. For a chase scene like this one, he would have change the tempo all the time, quote briefly the themes and modulate on all their possible harmonics, underline the crucial moments, etc. Here, it's basically : nervous chase music (with some strings and brass ostinati), silence when something important happens on screen, then music, then a huge brass blast when the music comes back, then nervous chase music again, etc.


I know how hard it is to discuss with Elfman haters, but it's a honest question. I'm basing myself on the music itself, I hope you will too...
 
The music is fine, both composers are good, it's still Spider-man.
 
Young is composing the entire score based on Elfman's themes (you can hear the goblin theme many times in the Harry/Peter's fight). Elfman is not involded in any way anymore.
Although, you can count on Raimi to use some cues from the previous films...:whatever:


I'll have a question for Visionary : I agree, the cue for the Harry/Peter's fight is nice though heavily repetitive and also EXTREMELY close to the music Young composed for the train sequence in SM2 (at first, I though it was just temp tracking). I guess you didn't notice that ?
Because if you accuse Danny Elfman of being always repeating himself, you possibly CAN'T deny that Young is already quoting himself while he only wrote two cues for SM2.

Don't get me wrong, Young is a fine composer (the cue represents his style) and I'll buy the score cd. But what makes Elfman (and others composers like Williams, Shore or JNH) what he is, it is his ability to propose a great diversity in his writing. For a chase scene like this one, he would have change the tempo all the time, quote briefly the themes and modulate on all their possible harmonics, underline the crucial moments, etc. Here, it's basically : nervous chase music (with some strings and brass ostinati), silence when something important happens on screen, then music, then a huge brass blast when the music comes back, then nervous chase music again, etc.


I know how hard it is to discuss with Elfman haters, but it's a honest question. I'm basing myself on the music itself, I hope you will too...
I happen to like the train scene music very much, and I wasn't once reminded of it once during that energetic fight scene. This music shifted accordingly everytime the action did and stopped on a dime when need be (Ex.: The Window/Ring drop scene). Most importantly, it fit everything you were seeing on screen.

I never really liked the original Goblin theme, but I know for continuity sake with the Goblins it must be used. And even here it was made to sound a bit grander than the original. I'm hoping he can find a way to make the main theme music a bit grander, as well.

As I said before, I've alway like the Peter Parker, Aunt May and the MJ/Peter romance themes from Danny Elfman--and those themes still work well in this film. As I mentioned above, not once was I reminded of another movie, especially Batman, during this entire fight scene. Is that too much to ask?
Translation: Not much original music.
Not much original music, Young is creating original music for Gwen Stacy, The Symbiote, Eddie/Venom, Marko/Sandman and other action scenes consisting of these characters (this includes the construction site battle)--how is that not original music? :dry:
 
Vis is spot on and as for the, "tom and jerry" music :whatever: It fits and matches the scenes perfectly. I too wasn't reminded of batman or even the red dragon for that matter, Elfman's music is just annoyingly repetitive and pretty much sound the same in all the movies he scores.
 
i think he'll be composing the cowbell
 
Ever stop to think that the old themes may be "temp" music until the newer themes are completed ?

Just saying.............
 
One question, what exactly is "temp music"?
 
Ever stop to think that the old themes may be "temp" music until the newer themes are completed ?

Just saying.............

Three themes are kept, it's official : Spider-Man, Peter Parker and the Green Goblin.
I'm not sure about the romantic theme : its presence in the clip may be just temp tracking like you said (with Young bringing a new one for the actual film) but I doubt it, the reason being that it's a really important theme that Raimi's seems to love a lot; we all remember how he heavily temp-tracked the second film with it (even when it made no sense : the Aunt May Packs scene). So I wouldn't be surprise that he'd use the cues from the previous film for the romantic "moments" - after all, what Elfman wrote for these partes is very ethereal and could work with in many ways...

But, we won't be sure until May ! :yay:
 
The music was much better than any action scene music from the first film. Elfman doesn't know how to compose action music. For the first time, I was watching Spider-Man and didn't once think of Batman or Beetle-Juice. It's refreshing.

Agreed, I said last night it was nice not to hear circus music during a Spider-man action sequence. Elfman is absolutely TERRIBLE at composing music for those type of scenes. Just watch any Spider-man action sequence from the first movie (especially the Time Square battle) and listen to how pedestrian his music is and how none of it accentuates what's on screen. I was ecstatic the day I heard he wasn't coming back.
 
First of all : What I'm asking you is to STOP mixing up your taste in terms of music with facts you can't prove.

Elfman is not able to write music for an action scene ?
Ok. I'm an editor and I write music for short films; of course, it doesn't mean that my point of view is more elaborate than yours but it means that I know what I talk about when it comes to rhythm in a film (though I still have many things to learn, let's stay modest ! :cwink:).



Let's take an example here from Spider-Man 2 : Doc Ock throwing the car in the restaurant and taking MJ as an hostage. I'm referring to the original music here, written by Elfman and not to what you can hear in the film, even though it is almost the same cue. I'll try to upload this to youtube to make my analysis more understandable.

It starts with very low strings in tremolo and col legno announcing the danger to come, in a very classic horror fashion. Then the "Action Theme" of Doc Ock, the one you're calling "circus music" kicks in in all its grandeur, the brass section literally screaming the notes. It's not a very melodic theme (Doc Ock main's theme is a much more elaborate musical sentence) but it is the point: it goes with Doc Ock's steps. It's not circus music; it's a march because it is the essential visual element of the villain. The theme can be analysed as an 8-notes modulation around their octaves; it is NO accident: 8 notes ("legs") for 4 octaves (Doctor Otto Octavius). So not only, Elfman finds the musical signature of the villain’s march but he even manages to actually represent the character in the musical writing. You can also note that the beginning of the musical sentences matches with the evil arms of Doc Ock touching the ground.

After this impressive establishment of the Action theme, we come to more quiet moments but fill with tension and mystery. First, there's a sort of aerial part as Doc Ock lands to the ground. Next, we get the the Main theme of the villain, the more melodic one. Basically, it's a very brief diminished motif followed by a dark, twisted sentence, mainly descending, an expression of the disorder in Octavius' mind. While the Action theme only works with the images of Doc Ock moving, the main theme can be modulated in many harmonics, getting heroic, dark, tragic, intense, weak, mysterious as much as Elfman wants to; as a matter of fact, the composer doesn't delivers this theme twice the same way, always changing the orchestration, the tempo or the harmonics.
After that, there's an "ending motif" that usually closes Doc Ock's musical world. Here it is played in a very dark way, like a representation of the Armageddon to come. Elfman is actually saying to us what is coming up in a very subconscious way. He also mislead us, letting us think that a Spider-Man theme will come up saving the situation... but the timpani kicks in, to bring us to a second statement of Doc Ock's Main theme by the brass section, very heroic and stable : this time, the villain is winning. Elfman brings back again the ending motif but the this time reverse it's original intention: it's not closing but opening to the second part of the cue, the escape of Doc Ock with MJ.
The strings are getting nervous, establishing the rhythm of Ock's plans. As they're getting more wild and aerial and as MJ screams, Elfman comes up with a variation of the Main Theme that goes with the moments where Doc Ock disappears in the immensity of the city (right after the hospital scene or after his little chat with Harry on the roof, etc.). Here, the brief initial motif is replaced by horns and trombones screaming two notes representing the plans of the villain coming to life and the wind blowing on his face while he escapes quickly through the buildings.

Finally, we come back to Peter stuck in the restaurant. As the camera flies close to ground, rushing to Peter, the strings accelerate, giving the movement of the camera more strength. Peter emerges and Elfman chooses, instead of quoting any Spider-Man theme or motifs, to quote for the last time Doc Ock's Main theme as a warning to Peter: you'd better act fast or everything will be lost.
When Peters comes out of the restaurant, he realises that he can see without his glasses. While he’s wondering what is going on, Elfman writes a very ethereal variation on the Peter Parker/Responsibility Theme. He does quote it at first with its usual orchestration (mainly horns and strings) but moves very quickly to a more undefined take, as Peter tries to figure out what is happening. Being totally able to see now, he understands that he’ll have to fight again and that he’s ready. The music slowly grows to that direction and while Peter let his glasses fall, Elfman proposes a very simple but effective variation of the ending of the Main Title (and not a direct quote of the “Revenge” cue from the first film; that’s Raimi playing with the temp track again). It’s a very logical choice: Elfman always summarize in his main titles the entire main plot, giving us hints of what we are going to experience. The ending of the main titles was, in the development of the cue, the hero’s birth, the moment where Parker, at the end of the first film becomes Spider-man (this idea is quite obvious in the main title of the second movie, where the visual and musical moment are linked by Elfman and Ross’ drawings). It is only logical that Elfman decide to use a variation around this musical ending for the end of the restaurant sequence: at that moment Parker IS Spider-man again.



And I could analyse every single sequence of the film the same way and also every other Elfman’s score. Besides, I’m not the only one doing that, you should check out Halfyard’s book “Danny Elfman’s Batman”. You’ll understand how complex Elfman’s writing is.

Do you understand now the difference between not liking Elfman’s style (which I understand perfectly) and saying that he can’t write film score without being repetitive or out of context ? Because, that’s just not true : not only he does write a huge variety of scores in many genres, always trying to fit the action (and that means sometimes underlining it, sometimes letting the images do their job because they’re good enough on their own) but he’s one of the best doing this job out there.

I don’t like Young’s music for the Harry/Peter chase but you won’t hear me say that he can’t compose or that he’s unable to follow what’s happening on screen because it’s not true. His music works; it just doesn’t represent to me what makes film music so exciting. A huge difference.
 
Hes composing all of it, Raimi is reusing all the elfman themes to keep continuity. im pretty sure the new romance theme will be the gwen peter theme, he wont replace the m.j peter one.
 
Hes composing all of it, Raimi is reusing all the elfman themes to keep continuity. im pretty sure the new romance theme will be the gwen peter theme, he wont replace the m.j peter one.

You're probably right.
Sorry I'm not really following the release of the film and forgot about the character of Gwen. Like you said, Raimi will most likely use the cues from the previous films concerning Peter and MJ and Young will come up with a new theme for Gwen.

But if you ask me, that's musical patchwork, not really film music. I hope Young we'll be able to develop his approach unlike Elfman on SM2.
 
I don’t like Young’s music for the Harry/Peter chase but you won’t hear me say that he can’t compose or that he’s unable to follow what’s happening on screen because it’s not true. His music works; it just doesn’t represent to me what makes film music so exciting. A huge difference.

Thats interesting because to me, Young's score made the peter/Harry chase very exciting. Someone coined it as, "tom and jerry music" and imo it realy reflects and emphasises whats on the screen.
 
@ Danny Elfman: Thumbs up, your analisis was a great read! You def know ya thing!

I was quite upset when I heard Elfman was not going to return for "Spider-Man 3" but I liked what I heard from the clip. And, it's funny that someone said it sounded like "Tom & Jerry" music. Actually, the chase scene itself reminded me a lot of that and other classic cartoons and Sam Raimi was def inspired by them. You can clearly see that in his other movies such as "Evild Dead 2" and "Army of Darkness", too!
 
Well, nice analysis too concerning the Evil Dead series fabman ! :-)

As for the "Tom and Jerry" feel, I'd have to agree. As I said before, I don't like it but it does work with the images.
The main difference with Elfman is in fact that Elfman is generally much more closer to the action, underlining what's happening very precisely, the way Carl Stalling did (a musical hero for Elfman and who heavily influenced the way score are written in Hollywood even though he's mainly known for his scores for Warner Brothers cartoons - yes, cartoons again !). That's called "mickey-mousing".
So, Elfman prefers to write segments of 10 to 15 seconds then move to something else while Young tends to write for the general feel of the scene. There's not a really a method that works better than the other, both can work...
 

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