Comics So what books of Stracsynski's run on ASM makes people hate him?

[Dangerous]

Basically ASM#509 onwards the begining of SP.
That arc just trashed Gwen, a pivitol character and it also trashed continuity.
It was basically a huge F-you to the fans, then came The Other and now Spidey is not even Spidey anymore.
He is just a ***** comparred to who he used to be, Tony Stark's lapdog whopee!

 

[shinlyle]

DISCLAIMER: This is a mixture of fact and my opinion.

Okay, first off, I don't hate JMS. I hate what he's done to Spidey, and I hate his writing on Spidey since ASM#509....that's it.

His first strike wasn't the totem/Morlun Arc. I liked that arc. It presented us with a question, and it was interesting. We all thought this could lead to some potentially awesome stories, and villians and new cast members attempted to convicne Spider-Man what his origin was, when he knew what it was. That wasn't the problem. His first arc was the first readable issue of ASM is a long time, and it didn't mess with continuity....it just messed with Peter's head, and I found that to be fun.

His first strike was Sins Past. As soon as it was revealed that Gwen had children, it started going downhill. When it was revealed they were children that were produced from consencual sex with Norman Osborn while Gwen was supposed to be dating Peter, it was over. This was the first real strike against him. Then, he explained away the pregnancy by the most asanine means possible....attempting to work it into continuity by making up gaps in it. We all caught on, and alot of people were dissillusioned with JMS then.

Then came the "Skin Deep" arc. It wasn't tha tit was terribly bad, just that it was overly mediocre. It introduced a new version of an old villian, and it managed to accomplish nothing to repair the damage don in the previous arc...which we were all more than willing to forget.


The next step was the "Hydra" arc, which was simply one of JMS's best Spidey arcs since he began. Despite the fact that the fan reaction to Spidey being a member on the New Avengers was mostly negative (at least, it is now), this arc really managed to shine. It actually had MJ being a viable character, and we got to see Wolverine totally OWNED by Spider-Man...which we all love to see. This arc was good enough to get those who might have walked away to come back.....just in time for "The Other".

"The Other" was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I clung to the hope that this arc would be great. It's been so long since there was a major SPIDEY event, that I thought, "Certainly, it will be great"....well, I was wrong.

There is now ay around it, this storyline changed Peter's origin, after turning him into a killer. Then....he died. The character most people in the comics community can relate to, dies. It's over. We die, we don't come back (well, until Jesus raises us on the day of judgement, but I'm not going ot force my beliefs on you. Still....go to Church)

He made a deal with a Spider-Demon, and was resurrected[b/] as "More Spider than Man". He is now no longer the Spider-Man we've always known.

The Iron Spider suit is simply a tool to aide in Civil War. That doesn't excuse the poor design, though. Yes, it is a crappy suit, but this isn't JMS's fault. The first ASM story featuring the suit, however, is his fault. I didn't buy it, as I said, the "Other" was the straw, but I read it in the shop, and it fell far short. It was a sub-standard arc that has made the loner hero we all know and love, nothing more than a gullible side-kick with little or no common sense. He calls Tony "boss", and does whatever he says. On top of all this, the book seems to be more about Tony Stark/Iron Man than it is about Peter Parker/Spider-Man nowadays.

That's stupid. Iron Man has his own book (late as though it may be). Let that book showcase Iron Man. He should only have the occasional guest appearance in ASM, despite them living in the same place. I mean, doesn't Iron Man fight any villians?!?!

Anyway, this is my timeline of how JMS's writing on Spidey went from cool, to total pooch-screw. Take it as you will.

 

[Gregatron]

Where to begin?

At the very beginning (ASM Vol. 2 # 30), with the introduction of Ezekiel and the stupid, fanboy-esque, tilt the mirror, "What if the spider that bit Peter did it on purpose?" revisionist garbage.

Then the mystical villains. Then the 9-11 issue (and Victor Von Doom CRYING). Then the Gangster Hulk. Then a Dr. Strange story jammed into Spidey's book (along with Loki and hot dogs). Then the deplorable 500th issue, with the inaccurate time-travel nonsense and the "cathartic realism" of Peter talking to Ben's ghost. Then Sins Crap. Then the Molten Man rip-off. Then The Other. And then...

And then...


And then...


And then...

 

[Captivated]

DISCLAIMER: This is a mixture of fact and my opinion.

Okay, first off, I don't hate JMS. I hate what he's done to Spidey, and I hate his writing on Spidey since ASM#509....that's it.

His first strike wasn't the totem/Morlun Arc. I liked that arc. It presented us with a question, and it was interesting. We all thought this could lead to some potentially awesome stories, and villians and new cast members attempted to convicne Spider-Man what his origin was, when he knew what it was. That wasn't the problem. His first arc was the first readable issue of ASM is a long time, and it didn't mess with continuity....it just messed with Peter's head, and I found that to be fun.

His first strike was Sins Past. As soon as it was revealed that Gwen had children, it started going downhill. When it was revealed they were children that were produced from consencual sex with Norman Osborn while Gwen was supposed to be dating Peter, it was over. This was the first real strike against him. Then, he explained away the pregnancy by the most asanine means possible....attempting to work it into continuity by making up gaps in it. We all caught on, and alot of people were dissillusioned with JMS then.

Then came the "Skin Deep" arc. It wasn't tha tit was terribly bad, just that it was overly mediocre. It introduced a new version of an old villian, and it managed to accomplish nothing to repair the damage don in the previous arc...which we were all more than willing to forget.


The next step was the "Hydra" arc, which was simply one of JMS's best Spidey arcs since he began. Despite the fact that the fan reaction to Spidey being a member on the New Avengers was mostly negative (at least, it is now), this arc really managed to shine. It actually had MJ being a viable character, and we got to see Wolverine totally OWNED by Spider-Man...which we all love to see. This arc was good enough to get those who might have walked away to come back.....just in time for "The Other".

"The Other" was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I clung to the hope that this arc would be great. It's been so long since there was a major SPIDEY event, that I thought, "Certainly, it will be great"....well, I was wrong.

There is now ay around it, this storyline changed Peter's origin, after turning him into a killer. Then....he died. The character most people in the comics community can relate to, dies. It's over. We die, we don't come back (well, until Jesus raises us on the day of judgement, but I'm not going ot force my beliefs on you. Still....go to Church)

He made a deal with a Spider-Demon, and was resurrected as "More Spider than Man". He is now no longer the Spider-Man we've always known.

The Iron Spider suit is simply a tool to aide in Civil War. That doesn't excuse the poor design, though. Yes, it is a crappy suit, but this isn't JMS's fault. The first ASM story featuring the suit, however, is his fault. I didn't buy it, as I said, the "Other" was the straw, but I read it in the shop, and it fell far short. It was a sub-standard arc that has made the loner hero we all know and love, nothing more than a gullible side-kick with little or no common sense. He calls Tony "boss", and does whatever he says. On top of all this, the book seems to be more about Tony Stark/Iron Man than it is about Peter Parker/Spider-Man nowadays.

That's stupid. Iron Man has his own book (late as though it may be). Let that book showcase Iron Man. He should only have the occasional guest appearance in ASM, despite them living in the same place. I mean, doesn't Iron Man fight any villians?!?!

Anyway, this is my timeline of how JMS's writing on Spidey went from cool, to total pooch-screw. Take it as you will.

Oh, goodie... you saved me a lot of writing!

JMS is such a mixed bag... good stories... HORRIBLE stories... I HATE what he did with Gwen (making them Peter's kids would have been 10 times worse!) but I love the way he writes MJ and Peter.

The only thing I have a different take on is the Tony Stark relationship... I don't think it belittles Peter.

With his supporting cast either dead, or constantly misunderstanding him It's natural for Peter be open to a friendship with Tony... they have mutual interests and Tony, by his interest and support has given Peter RESPECT (at least on the surface, and as far as Peter knows...) which I think Peter gets starved for.

Peter is in a different place... more mature... and the Avengers are different... they are humbler. I can see him trying his hand at being an Avenger at this point in time.

After the fire, Tony became a port in a storm, when he gave them a place to stay... just think of how vulnerable they were feeling... And then, when the reporter attacked MJ he gave them a great cover story and "took care of it".... major brownie points. Tony saved his life when Peter had literally sacrificed it on the back of that missle. When Peter was sick, Tony flew him to the best doctors and gave him use of his armor and a plane. When Peter "died" and MJ could barely put one foot in front of the other, he took care of things. I'm sure she told Peter.

And now after the many times Peter has admired Tony's armor, Tony has made him a "new" suit, and asked him to be his protege[SIZE=-1] (defined: a person who receives support and protection from an influential patron who furthers the protege's career) I think the whole "blood oath" thing might have given Peter pause, but I can see him forming a unique relationship with Tony. And I don't hate the design of the new suit (except for those three arms... what is up with THAT) but Spidey isn't "Spidey" without the red and blues...

I think Peter calling him "boss" is done a little tongue in cheek... Peter is not kissing up or being a lackey, but he has CHOSEN to ally himself with Tony for now... and in a sense Tony is his boss. He is also older and has been at this longer... Peter is respecting his "elders".[/SIZE]

BUT, WE know that all is not as it seems... and while Peter may tend to be trusting, he's not stupid. He already suspects that something is "off" with the questions he was asking of Tony last issue... He'll figure it out.

JMS has been writing Peter as much more intelligent than Bendis, who has done a complete hack job on the character in the New Avengers.

 

[Eye Doc]

Like so many others here, I don't hate JMS. I just "hate" some of the things he's done on the book and some of the things he hasn't done.

We constantly debate on the poor creative decisions he's made (Sins Past, The Other, etc), but I'm actually more disappointed in what he hasn't done. He grew up when Spidey when the character was at his creative peak. I've heard him talk about how cool it was to read the book in the 60's and early 70's because new characters were constantly created....especially during the Ditko/Romita era. When he started the book he said that he wanted to keep the book fresh and bring in new foes for Spidey to fight. Yet, almost five years later, all JMS has really got to show for his run is Morlun and Digger. I just expected more from a guy who wrote Risiing Stars and has worked in the TV industry.

I also "hate" that he hasn't done anything with the supporting cast outside of MJ and May. The Bugle characters have all but vanished from AMZ. When is the last time Jonah, Betty, or Robbie played an important role in an AMZ story? It wouldn't hurt to see them from time to time. I'd also like to see some new people introduced there or at least have some of the older people show up. In the past we had people like Ned Leeds, Kate Cushing, Joy Mercado, Lance Bannon, and Glory Grant. They may not have had a major role, but all of the above have been prominently featured in the book even if only for a shot spell. The Bugle should be made a more important aspect of Peter's life.

If JMS wanted to de-emphasize the Bugle, why hasn't he built up the role of the Peter's co-workers and students at the high school? Can anyone here name a co-woker there? I sure can't. Joe Q says he wants to keep Peter young. Why not have him interact with the students more? Peter, even in Marvel time, isn't that much older than the students.

Who do Pete and MJ hang out with? JMS has pretty much ignored Flash, Liz, and Randy for his entire run. When's the last time anyone saw Anna Watson? In 5 yrs time he should've used these older supporting characters more or at least created a new one. I can't think of anyone new outside of the Lamont the cop.

I had high hopes when JMS came aboard. I've liked some of his work but overall it's been a let down. It's laughable to hear Quesada say the book needs a better supporting cast when they've been there all along. If those guys couldn't see what was wrong with Spidey in all this time, I have little faith their new miniseries is going to "fix" the character.

Eye Doc

 

[Dragon]

Oh, goodie... you saved me a lot of writing!

JMS is such a mixed bag... good stories... HORRIBLE stories... I HATE what he did with Gwen (making them Peter's kids would have been 10 times worse!) but I love the way he writes MJ and Peter.

The only thing I have a different take on is the Tony Stark relationship... I don't think it belittles Peter.

With his supporting cast either dead, or constantly misunderstanding him It's natural for Peter be open to a friendship with Tony... they have mutual interests and Tony, by his interest and support has given Peter RESPECT (at least on the surface, and as far as Peter knows...) which I think Peter gets starved for.

Peter is in a different place... more mature... and the Avengers are different... they are humbler. I can see him trying his hand at being an Avenger at this point in time.

After the fire, Tony became a port in a storm, when he gave them a place to stay... just think of how vulnerable they were feeling... And then, when the reporter attacked MJ he gave them a great cover story and "took care of it".... major brownie points. Tony saved his life when Peter had literally sacrificed it on the back of that missle. When Peter was sick, Tony flew him to the best doctors and gave him use of his armor and a plane. When Peter "died" and MJ could barely put one foot in front of the other, he took care of things. I'm sure she told Peter.

And now after the many times Peter has admired Tony's armor, Tony has made him a "new" suit, and asked him to be his protege[SIZE=-1] (defined: a person who receives support and protection from an influential patron who furthers the protege's career) I think the whole "blood oath" thing might have given Peter pause, but I can see him forming a unique relationship with Tony. And I don't hate the design of the new suit (except for those three arms... what is up with THAT) but Spidey isn't "Spidey" without the red and blues...

I think Peter calling him "boss" is done a little tongue in cheek... Peter is not kissing up or being a lackey, but he has CHOSEN to ally himself with Tony for now... and in a sense Tony is his boss. He is also older and has been at this longer... Peter is respecting his "elders".[/SIZE]

BUT, WE know that all is not as it seems... and while Peter may tend to be trusting, he's not stupid. He already suspects that something is "off" with the questions he was asking of Tony last issue... He'll figure it out.

JMS has been writing Peter as much more intelligent than Bendis, who has done a complete hack job on the character in the New Avengers.

There are numerous problems with these points.

First Peter turning to Tony as "A port in the storm" is just the problem. Peter has always been self-sufficient. At this point in his life, he should be moreso. Growing stronger and wiser. Especially because he has to look out for MJ and Aunt May. He's always going to have problems. That's the credo of the character. How he deals with them is what's important.

Second, Peter purely out of his independence and self-sufficience should not accept the role as "protege". Maybe back when he was in high school or early college. Not at this point in his life. Losing Gwen, getting married- Aunt May learning his secret- surviving near-death countless times- Peter is simply too advanced in his life to take a back seat to anyone. Remember the way he handled Ezekiel, with all of his money and power? He showed Zeke respect, but was never beholding to him. But that's how he's written with Tony.

The same deal with the suit. It does nothing but weaken Peter's individuality.
The enhancements it gives are minor. Does Spidey need to fly? No. Does he need armor? He's fast enough to dodge a barrage of bullets- What can hit him? Yes I know he takes hits- but that's more the writer's fault as far as staging. Short of a Quicksilver, almost no one should really be able to lay a glove on Spidey unless he slows down for whatever reason or gets too close to the villain.

And considering that there are so many story avenues that they're missing to tell this story, it's a waste of time. I see so many people coming out about the possibility of Marvel ending the marriage- but for me- this is far more important. Just as some believe that the marriage is integral to who Spidey is (Which I don't) I do feel that how Peter reacts to the given circumstances, and the expression of his abilities IS integral to the character.