Comics Back in Black & Aunt May

Who says that Back in Black didn't happen?

According to Marvel, everything is pretty much canon up until OMD (which technically, is canon as well... just that nobody remebers it)...

And exactly how many times has "Peter gone go back to living with her and eating wheatcakes"?... Once. And he quickly moved out.

Peter has no family other than his "mom"... so to suggest that the plethora of supporting cast members is enough to do away with his "mom"?...

Yikes...

:wow: :wow: :wow:

:csad:
 
Plenty of superheroes don't have their moms anymore though. The fact is there's only so much you can do with May.

I mean how many times have we seen what Slott's doing with her with Mr. Negative? A BUNCH. I mean sure the majority of her negative comments towards Peter have been at his Spidey persona, but still, Aunt May breaking Peter's heart has been done before.
 
...Peter Parker has a plethora of friends who could support him and be there in his time of need.

In fact i would go so far as to say Aunt May is holding Peter back from becoming a man. How many times is Peter gonna go back to living with her and eating wheatcakes? Spider-man is supposed to be a book about a boy's journey through the natural trials of life from boyhood to manhood...

Great post.
 
Aunt May represents something unique in comics...a grounding to a family life that was taken...and a reminder--a constant reminder--of his initial failure to stop the thief who killed Uncle Ben.

Spider-Man is NOT really a story about a young man's journey to adulthood, because Pete can never truly reach adulthood given the limitations of the medium. We either freeze him in high school...freeze him in college...freeze him as a single slap-happy guy...freeze him as a married guy without kids...freeze him as a married guy with a baby...freeze him as a widower...etc. You get the picture. In an on-going story where characters never truly age, there really can be no easy journey from adolesence to adulthood (except in "What If" and "Alternate Universe" stories). That's the fundamental problem with all criticisms about Pete's "failure to change" as a character. Pete was 15 back in 1962, which would make him 62 or 63 today. He ought to be dating a woman Aunt May's age, who seems eternally in her mid-sixties. Unless Marvel is willing to let the character age and grow (which it is not), we're going to be stuck with somewhat repetitive stories. What is important then, at least to me, is to have well told tales accompanied by interesting art. DC has had the same problems with its heroes. Bruce Wayne debuted as a thirty-something crime fighter back in 1939--over 70 years ago. Continuity was never DC's strong suit, so they instead have re-engineered the character for different generations and tried to tell interesting stories. I suspect, particularly as the Marvel characters truly begin to age, we may see Marvel focus less on chronalogical continuity and more on stories. But unless you're dealing with an immortal (Thor) or a near-immortal (Wolverine), it's pretty tough to have characters exist in anthing approximating real-time.

I have always believed, unless Marvel decided to "age" Pete, the most interesting version of him was as a single, college age student. For many, many reasons which I have explained in other posts, I hated the married (especially to MJ) Pete. It didn't fit what Marvel was trying to do with the character. That's only my opinion and i recognize that many others disagree.

But I want to keep Aunt May around. She's more important than any other single character in Pete's life.
 
Aunt May represents something unique in comics...a grounding to a family life that was taken...and a reminder--a constant reminder--of his initial failure to stop the thief who killed Uncle Ben.

Spider-Man is NOT really a story about a young man's journey to adulthood, because Pete can never truly reach adulthood given the limitations of the medium. We either freeze him in high school...freeze him in college...freeze him as a single slap-happy guy...freeze him as a married guy without kids...freeze him as a married guy with a baby...freeze him as a widower...etc. You get the picture. In an on-going story where characters never truly age, there really can be no easy journey from adolesence to adulthood (except in "What If" and "Alternate Universe" stories). That's the fundamental problem with all criticisms about Pete's "failure to change" as a character. Pete was 15 back in 1962, which would make him 62 or 63 today. He ought to be dating a woman Aunt May's age, who seems eternally in her mid-sixties. Unless Marvel is willing to let the character age and grow (which it is not), we're going to be stuck with somewhat repetitive stories. What is important then, at least to me, is to have well told tales accompanied by interesting art. DC has had the same problems with its heroes. Bruce Wayne debuted as a thirty-something crime fighter back in 1939--over 70 years ago. Continuity was never DC's strong suit, so they instead have re-engineered the character for different generations and tried to tell interesting stories. I suspect, particularly as the Marvel characters truly begin to age, we may see Marvel focus less on chronalogical continuity and more on stories. But unless you're dealing with an immortal (Thor) or a near-immortal (Wolverine), it's pretty tough to have characters exist in anthing approximating real-time.

I have always believed, unless Marvel decided to "age" Pete, the most interesting version of him was as a single, college age student. For many, many reasons which I have explained in other posts, I hated the married (especially to MJ) Pete. It didn't fit what Marvel was trying to do with the character. That's only my opinion and i recognize that many others disagree.

But I want to keep Aunt May around. She's more important than any other single character in Pete's life.

Great post.

:yay:
 
The fact is Aunt May, Charles Xavier, Alfred Pennyworth, and Jarvis.

All of em were born with a purpose, they've all sense outlived that purpose (save perhaps Alfred and Jarvis), they are kept around because they are ''needed (not really)." and classic to the franchise. However, they all have someone who can take their place.
 
Actually, neither aunt may nor alfred is replaceable. Each represents a unique connection to the past for pete and Bruce. And each serves as a reminder of the obligations the characters have taken on. No one in either of these characters respective universes can function in the same way. Now, that doesn't mean they can't be gotten rid of, but neither character is replaceable. Jarvis and Prof. X, on the other hand, are both replaceable-at least more so than may and Alfred.
 
First let me start by saying GREAT post Meehaul. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with the problems that marvel is having with Spiderman and Peter Parker as a whole. Marvel feels like they cannot age Peter in order to preserve his like-ability for years and years and years. Thats fine.

BUT, here's the thing. Its one thing to "Freeze" a character and keep him that way forever, but its another to have the character progress and actually GO BACK and regress him to an earlier status quo that was done already. The thing is, you say Spiderman is NOT about a boy's journey to manhood but let's face it, for 40 years thats what marvel was doing with the character. Every decade Peter was growing a little older and going through natural phases of life. So, marvel may not have wanted peter to grow old but THATS WHAT THEY WERE DOING TO THE CHARACTER FOR YEARS.

Thats what made spiderman such a great comic book character. We saw him grow and evolve, thats why everybody relates to peter parker. Not because he's some broke, single loser, but because he was growing up and facing the same issues that we all face as we grow up. We never saw Bruce Wayne grow up so you can get away with not aging him, nor Tony Stark, or Steve Rogers, or Matt Murdock, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan etc etc etc. Spiderman was unique because we got to see a character on a journey.

Now with that said can you really blame fans for being angry that marvel basically said " Ok guys well Peter's journey is pretty much over, its time to rewind." I completely understand marvel's fear of Peter growing too old, but there has to be a middle ground somewhere. Look at what they're doing with Cyclops. Cyclops has arguably shown the most growth out of ANY marvel character and he started out like Peter, a teenager. Marvel says that his marriage to mary jane constrained him, yet, when they got a writer that handled the marriage well (JMS) we were getting the best spiderman stories told in years and the sales figures were reflecting that at the time. So what if he's married, how exactly does that restrict storytelling? Because you cant have peter sleeping with Black Cat? OR Michelle Gonzales?

All i'm saying is a large appeal of Peter Parker was his journey through life. One More Day told us in plain english that Peter's journey is over.
 
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Just out of curiosity, but what would you say has been Peter Parker's journey through life from when he married MJ to OMD?
 
Well for one thing, he was a about to have a child with MJ. That was the natural next step but Marvel changed their minds at the last minute. He finally said goodbye to Aunt May in Amazing #400 and learned that she always knew he was spiderman and was proud of him. But marvel changed their minds with that too. Then later on, JMS finally let Peter have a decent job that played to peter's strength as a scientist and a person, a science teacher. Lots of story potential there and it was the natural next step for the character...but marvel changed their minds on that.

I dont get it man, if marvel never wanted Peter to grow then why did they allow for all these stories to take place in the first place?
 
I agree. Marvel made a significant mistake having Pete marry and then throwing in the whole "baby" thing if they didn't plan to have him age. It's the Simpson's conumdrum. The show's been on, what, twenty years or so? And how old are Bart and Lisa? Does Maggie talk or walk? Grandpa Simpson is still alive?

This is the problem of creating ageless characters. There's a good reason in fiction that marriages and babies happen at the END of the story, not the beginning. Marriage marks a certain passage, as does the birth of a child. WHile those stories were certainly poignant, they were never sustainable unless Marvel wanted to take a different course with Pete. DC, facing the aging of its Golden Age Heroes, allowed them to age (sort of) and brought new characters onto the stage. Alan Scott as GL? Forget it! He's old, we have Hal Jordan now! Jay Garrick as the Flash? Screw it! Bring on Barry Allen!

About the only two DC characters, if you notice, who did NOT get replaced were Superman--but he's an alien and, well, super, so you could explain away his failure to age. But Bruce Wayne? He's a normal guy. But his sustained popularity (unlike the earlier versions of GL and the Flash) maintained even when the super hero genre, generally, fell out of fashion. So, with continued popularity came a desire NOT to replace Bruce, but to string him along as a non-changing albeit mortal, man.

Since comics' silver age, it's even proved hard to replace established heroes. Even after all the horrible things Hal Jordan did, they brought him back. Even though Barry Allen seemed to have joined Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben as the only two truly dead people in comics, they brought him back. Captain America got around the whole "age" thing by conveniently being frozen. But now...did anyone doubt they'd bring Steve Rogers back at some point? Thor's a God, so immortal. Wolverine has morphed into this unkillable creature, so maybe he gets by as well, but the other non-ridiculously-superheroes? Leave their aging to What Ifs and Alternate Worlds tales.

If Marvel had been committed to allowing Pete to progress along a natural arc, none of us would have been reading Pete as Spidey. We'd be reading about Mayday as Spider-Girl or some other dude who would have taken up the mantel as Pete likely would have retired back in the 90's. But given that Marvel is shooting for a specific demographic group, teen and 20's males, it was hard to let him age. Even the 40-something readers are probably more interested in reading about a swingin' single Petey than a married Mr. Parker with mortgage on a house in Queens and a mini-van (having traded in the Spider-Buggy). While that might be interesting to read about, that's not Marvel's vision--nor was it Raimi's in creating the film version of the character.

So, I don't view what Marvel's done as a "regression" so much as an inevitable re-boot. While I wish Pete never would have gotten married (for reasons I have expressed elsewhere) and especially to MJ (ditto), once Marvel did it, I wish they'd have stayed clear of babies and done the decent thing and killed MJ off. I would have enjoyed reading stories about a guy who, because of his own mistake, "caused" the death of his Uncle Ben, who inadvertently killed his one true love (Gwen), and who then lost his wife because of responsibilities as SM. Now that would have been a trully messed up, internally tormented dude to read about. As I've said, I didn't like HOW Marvel handled OMD/BND, but I'm glad Pete's back and recognizable to me. And I'm glad Aunt May is there as well. And, just as an aside, while JMS is a teriffic writer, I so hated the Other story line and the Sins Past storyline, and making Pete a teacher at his old high school, that his whole run is a disaster in my view. He messed up the whole origin story and he sullied Gwen's memory. So, I dug him on Thor, but he wrote about a Peter Parker (of course the "Benjamin," while a nice tribute, was a later addition to canon) I neither recognized nor truly enaged with. I know that plenty of others, who joined the stories later than I, feel differently because they've always known a married Pete, always believed that MJ was "the one." But folks who pick up the character now, post-BDN, will have their own, different take on the character. That crowd, especially if they came to the character through the movies, probably would much prefer organic webbing as well. Or, to those horrified by Pete's drinking or sleeping around, what if THAT turned out to be the character's "evolution"? That's change. That's arguably an evolution of the character. He was a conservative, nerdy dude and now he's a swinger. Maybe Wolverine and Ben Grimm get him to start smoking cigars too. Maybe, without Aunt May to remind him of his responsibilities, Dead Pool and Luke Cage get him into the "Hero for Hire" business so he can support MJ's lavish lifestyle. Thats all change, evolution.

I think the reality is that tastes change. None of us can lay claim to being a "real" fan or having the "definite" understanding or interpretation of the character. We can just express our preferences.
 
Good post Meehaul, i cant really argue with anything you've said. I grew up in the 90's when Peter Parker was already an adult and married and all that so thats the peter parker i grew to love. Its weird but, I think what drew me to him was how different this Peter Parker was to his animated series counterpart in the 90's tv show (which i was a HUGE HUGE fan of). It kinda felt like i was looking into the future of the animated series show.

Anyway, your right tho, its all specific preferences. I'm sure if i grew up in the 70's or 80's i might have a different view of things. I just really really wish that of marvel absolutely had to reboot spiderman that they would have handled it better. Personally i've always longed for the day where we'd see Spiderman swinging above New York city with a baby nap-sack on his back with his child in it. BUT, i do understand why that can never happen. I just wish there was some sort of middle ground where they dont necessarily have to age peter but not have to recycle the same stories over and over again. All the other marvel characters seem to be progressing and doing different things, why not Spiderman?
 
Great posts guys... :up:

I just wanted to add that the Bruce Wayne we've known since 1939 is not the same guy as he is today.. that was the Earth-2 Batman that was in the JSA with Alan Scott & Jay Garrick and he eventually married Selina Kyle and they gave birth to the Huntress... he retired in the late 60's (to be replaced by "our" Batman, of Earth-1) and eventually died in an issue of Adventure Comics circa 1979...

So like the Golden Age heroes, the Golden Age Batman was a different person, just with teh same name...

:yay:
 
Right THOTB, and al that "Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 97" stuff was a retrofit for the DCU. I also think we don't see a lot of "progress" in characters--what we see are major changes to which characters respond (The Death of Jean Grey); "events" (Pete's marriage, Civil War); charater redefinitions (Stark's alcoholism or Thor's switch in alter egos); or charater "re-boots" (Wolverine's 30 different origin stories, Hank Pym's constant metamorphosis). We get precious little character progression. Look at the FF, even the birth of Franklin Richards didn't "change" much about Reed & Sue. babies have a funny way of being born and then shunted to the side. The Hulk had to go off-planet to have his son--and, honestly, the Hulk has gone through so many re-characterizations, it's hard to keep up. None of the stories are true over-arching "character journeys." In effect, they can't be. Marvel is trying to keep the characters viable over time.

Just think--you say how cool it would be to see Pete web swinging with an infant. What about a toddler? Or a teen? Does the kid stay a baby forever? If the child ages, does Pete? Even if radioactive blood ******s aging, does MJ age? Aunt May? Or do we have Pete and MJ and Bart and Lisa, and Maggie all over again?

I thought ASM 400 where JM De Mattis killed off Aunt May was a beautiful writtern story with considerable emotional impact. But I remember, even as I read it, knowing that it could not last because May was too important a character to kill off. I wish Marvel had the guts to kill off MJ like they did Gwen, but now that the movies have been made and MJ has become fixed in the minds of non-fans (but movie go-ers) it will be tough to kill her off. If Gwen were alive today, no way would Marvel kill her. The BND/OMD team even had editorial authority to revive Gwen! Probably the only reason Martha and Thomas Wayne and Uncle Ben stay dead is because they were "inciting events" to get the characters going.

I suspect part of the reason so many comics fans "grow out of" the characters is because there really IS no progression in the characters and the stories DO get rehashed so often. I will not be surprised if I live to see a Tony Stark clone and an alcoholic Pete!
 
The last time I really liked May and thought she added something good to the plot was when she was dating Jarvis, smack talking wolverine and poisoning the chameleon while knitting. That May "I know who my nephew really is thereby making me actually seem like someone with a brain and I accept my new life and want to help make a real difference rather than living in some strange denial state" I was definitely digging. I also liked seeing her stick up for Jarvis, Jarvis deserves a ****ing vacation.
 
Originally posted by Meehaul

Right THOTB, and al that "Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 97" stuff was a retrofit for the DCU. I also think we don't see a lot of "progress" in characters--what we see are major changes to which characters respond (The Death of Jean Grey); "events" (Pete's marriage, Civil War); character redefinitions (Stark's alcoholism or Thor's switch in alter egos); or character "re-boots" (Wolverine's 30 different origin stories, Hank Pym's constant metamorphosis). We get precious little character progression. Look at the FF, even the birth of Franklin Richards didn't "change" much about Reed & Sue. babies have a funny way of being born and then shunted to the side. The Hulk had to go off-planet to have his son--and, honestly, the Hulk has gone through so many re-characterizations, it's hard to keep up. None of the stories are true over-arching "character journeys." In effect, they can't be. Marvel is trying to keep the characters viable over time.

Just think--you say how cool it would be to see Pete web swinging with an infant. What about a toddler? Or a teen? Does the kid stay a baby forever? If the child ages, does Pete? Even if radioactive blood ******s aging, does MJ age? Aunt May? Or do we have Pete and MJ and Bart and Lisa, and Maggie all over again?

I thought ASM 400 where JM De Mattis killed off Aunt May was a beautiful writtern story with considerable emotional impact. But I remember, even as I read it, knowing that it could not last because May was too important a character to kill off. I wish Marvel had the guts to kill off MJ like they did Gwen, but now that the movies have been made and MJ has become fixed in the minds of non-fans (but movie go-ers) it will be tough to kill her off. If Gwen were alive today, no way would Marvel kill her. The BND/OMD team even had editorial authority to revive Gwen! Probably the only reason Martha and Thomas Wayne and Uncle Ben stay dead is because they were "inciting events" to get the characters going.

I suspect part of the reason so many comics fans "grow out of" the characters is because there really IS no progression in the characters and the stories DO get rehashed so often. I will not be surprised if I live to see a Tony Stark clone and an alcoholic Pete!
Once again, beautiful post man. Some excellent points made here. You know its funny tho, these "progression" problems seem to pertain to marvel much more than DC. I mean Batman has pretty much been doing the same old thing since the 30's and yet people dont mind it. You dont hear people saying "why doesnt Bruce get married or have kids" or whatever. I think its because marvel focuses more on the actual people behind the masks that the readers notice the recycling of the stories more than at DC where Green Lantern is Green lantern and Superman is Superman and they will always be fighting Sinestro and Lex Luthor forever. You sort of expect that more whereas over at marvel, its not just spider-man's adventures, its peter parker's as well. Same Bruce Banner and the hulk, matt murdock and DD, tony stark and Ironman.

See, i bet a million dollars that marvel would have NEVER been able to get away with a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" story where the whole universe is reset. If marvel did that they would be committing suicide but DC got away with it because they're emphasis was always on the superheroes themselves and not the alter egos. You could have multiple green lanterns or flashes or a brand new batman. That would ever work with marvel. Hell, look at what happened with One More Day, that was only a quasi-reboot and look how the fans reacted, could you imagine if marvel were to reset their whole line? The marvel readers have become invested in the character's personal lives and journey's just as much as their superhero adventures. So much so that when they start to recycle stories, its much more noticeable than over at DC. For that I admire DC alot, because let's face it, there WILL come a day in the not too distant future where Marvel will have reset their line like DC did with "Crisis" and i wonder how well thats gonna go over.
 
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Personally, with all the reboots, it's why I don't care for DC anymore... :csad:
 
That's right, kguillou, I think you've hit the nail on the head, as it were. Marvel has focused far more on the characters of Pete & Tony & Ben, et al than DC has on Clark & Bruce & Hal. As a result, when a fan picks up the Marvel books, they like Pete at the stage of his life he's in, and they tend to want to see the character "grow" with them. I started reading ASM when I was a kid, and Pete wasn't (at least in my imagination) wildly older than I was. It was kind of fun to see him age--although I noticed I started aging at a much faster rate than Pete! Pretty soon, Aunt May was going to start looking good to me. ;) In one respect, we'd all like to see our favorite characters follow an arc in life not unlike our own--at least to a point. I suspect at some time, we yearn for our more youthful days, so we want to see Pete not as a 45 year old guy with teen-age kids and a mini-van, but as a youthful adventurer.

But for a company that has intellectual property interests in a character, and that expects to make a lot of loot off those characters, aging them is death. So is changing them too much. Marvel can fiddle around with Hank Pym, after all, he was never that popular. And they do the fiddling to come up with a more successful format for the chacter--just look at Wolverine. Weirdly, even Thor spent a lot more time as Donald Blake at first...it wasn't until later that Thor as TRUE Immortal Thunder God developed--so Don Blake became the alter-ego to the true personna (sort of like Superman...he's REALLY Superman, Clark Kent is the disguise). But Marvel can't afford to screw up the winning Spider-Man formula--and it's only when that formula starts to sag that Marvel has to step in and shake things up a bit.

When the Ultimate Comics came out, I honestly thought we were going to see a Crisis on Infinite Earths kind of thing. I thought Galactus would munch down the "616" earth and the Ultimate line would become the successor titles with an already established "re-boot" in place. I figured we'd get "he Ultimate Amazing Spider-Man" for a year or two, then we'd be back to "The Amazing Spider-Man" again (although following the Ultimate continuity). I was actually a bit surprised when that didn't happen.
 
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It really bugs me that it has never been explained/shown how Aunt May came out of her coma and re-adjusted to life. Sure "Mephisto made it so" but surely there's a story in there in how the characters reacted and reasoned it. Did Peter think it was a miracle, and cherished her return to health so much that he hung up the webs for those few months between OMD & BND? Compelling possibilities...

The lack of resolution on this issue makes that whole Back In Black arc feel like a time waster (which JMS basically admitted it was) and completely irrelevant to the mythos, which is a shame, because it seemed to be more of the life-changing story in Spider-Man's life that The Other wishes it were...
 
It really bugs me that it has never been explained/shown how Aunt May came out of her coma and re-adjusted to life. Sure "Mephisto made it so" but surely there's a story in there in how the characters reacted and reasoned it. Did Peter think it was a miracle, and cherished her return to health so much that he hung up the webs for those few months between OMD & BND? Compelling possibilities...

The lack of resolution on this issue makes that whole Back In Black arc feel like a time waster (which JMS basically admitted it was) and completely irrelevant to the mythos, which is a shame, because it seemed to be more of the life-changing story in Spider-Man's life that The Other wishes it were...

Exactly! OMD was clearly an agenda to make things the way Joe Q wanted them. The whole situation set up by the unmasking had no real resolution. It's poor storytelling. It's like, we have no real ending for this, let's just skip over and say everything is fine, Aunt May's better and no one knows Pete's id.

And, Meehaul, again nice posts. Even though I don't agree with you, I understand where you are coming from and have valid points. We've argued before on this, mainly in the Steve Ditko thread, so I won't go into it right now.

Only one point about people liking Pete based on when they jumped on the title. I started right at Gwen's death (my second issue of ASM), so it was college age single Pete who had just lost his love. But, I was against the whole marriage reboot. Heck, I was mad when they ended the baby story, but I understand the problems associated if a baby is added to the title. But, I didn't want ASM reverted back to when I first started.
 
I spoke to Wacker briefly on a newsarama/twitter Q & A and he said that sometime this year the whole BnB/mindwipe thing will be explained...

And methinks it was more than just what "JQ wanted"... I think it's what Marvel Comics Inc. wanted...

:yay:
 
Eh. I very much doubt that. Joey Q was pretty much the only vocal one against the marriage and the status quo pre-BND.
 
Yes... JQ's bosses... he has to answer to someone... after all...

:yay:
 
I understand that maybe Marvel in general wanted Spidey single, but as JustABill said, Joe Q was pretty vocal when saying the marriage was a problem. He is pretty much the face and voice and EIC of all this.

Marvel may have an answer to the whole BnB/mindwipe thing, but as it stands now, it really looks like a deus ex machina crappy solution. Or should I say devil ex manchina?
 

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