Homecoming Spider-Man Homecoming (2017) General Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 101

[Flint Marko]

My issues/concerns will always exist until proven otherwise.

Your issues/concerns about Uncle Ben have consistently been proven 100% wrong yet you still spout the same unfounded nonsense about it on a regular basis. The rest of your arguments have been addressed and dismantled to varying degrees by me and several other posters yet you still stir the pot here on a regular basis, derailing the thread and causing us all to have the same arguments we are always having.

 

[harryoscop]

I will say this. If harryoscop is right and Uncle Ben basically doesn't exist or provide any motivation for why Peter is doing what he's doing, I'll be right there complaining along side him.

Peter's treatment towards his aunt and uncle is a big issue I had with his character in the ASM films as well.

However, thus far, I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate that this is actually the case with this film. It isn't like Fant4stic where there was tons of evidence that they were bungling it.

*Samuel L. Jackson Nick Fury voice* I still believe in traditionalists.

 

[harryoscop]

Your issues/concerns about Uncle Ben have consistently been proven 100% wrong yet you still spout the same unfounded nonsense about it on a regular basis. The rest of your arguments have been addressed and dismantled to varying degrees by me and several other posters yet you still stir the pot here on a regular basis, derailing the thread and causing us all to have the same arguments we are always having.

Point me to a post where they were 100%. debunked, please? Because if I'm still arguing against it, that means I never will. Just because you guys say it's untrue or delusional does not make me suddenly change my tune. I'll have these issues until Marvel proves otherwise or/and I see the movie & I'm wrong. As of right, there's nothing out there that blows a hole in my argument.

 

[ImSGirl95]

I'll have these issues until Marvel proves otherwise

... or you will still have those issues even when Marvel proves otherwise. Because it's the easier way.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Problem is oscop usually states everything as fact. As if he knows without a shadow of doubt the stuff he rants about is true. Which is not against anyones rules but is intensely annoying

There is neither any news nor really anything to discuss. If it weren't for these derailing posts, this place would probably be dead.

Hell, it's busier than Guardians of the Galaxy 2, which comes out first.

 

[harryoscop]

That's true but there has been a lot of activity contrary to when an, um, debate is happening. We were discussing Green Goblin until somebody (once again) engaged my opinion on this interpretation of Peter Parker/Spider-Man.

And these posts aren't really derailing anything. This is a discussion board on Spider-Man: Homecoming. We're discussing Spider-Man: Homecoming.

 

[TheWallCrawler]

all right, here's my two cents on the harryoscop's issues-conversation, mainly the:
"Spider-man is not affected by Uncle Ben's death, he's just obsessed about becoming an Avenger"

In this movie Peter wishes to become an Avenger, that much is obvious. But how is he obsessed? There's 1 line in the trailer where he asks Tony how one could apply for a place in the team, hardly proof for obsession. Still, the bigger question is: how is Spider-man wanting to become an Avenger a bad thing?

The function of the Avengers is to protect earth against global level threats; going by the movie history and what's to come, Avengers are needed about once every 3 years. So, between those events, Spidey will still stop street level crime (judging by his core motivation he stated in Civil War). And another thing that's stated in Civil War, despite Avengers having stopped those threats, there's always civilian casualties, often tons. Is Spider-man more heroic if he stays at New York during the events and stops some person from robbing a cash register, or if he goes to where there are masses of people in immediate danger and tries to save as much as he can?

Lastly about Uncle Ben. Where's oscop's proof that he isn't Peter's motivation? Peter hasn't outright said that "Uncle Ben is my reason for doing this", I guess that technically means that there's no 100% proof for him being the motivation, but that is extremely nitpicky. Peter just met Tony, it's entirely natural that he wouldn't spill all his guts to him. He still said a version of the "with great power" spiel, and Feige said that this universe had an Uncle Ben, so common sense tells us that the part of the mythos is still extremely likely intact. So why all the worry?

 

[Dark Raven]

Of course Peter is not affected by Uncle Ben's death in this version. In fact, it was Peter who killed him because he didn't like this whole "with great power comes great responsibility" speech. He staged the whole burglary and blamed it on the thief who stole from the wrestling match, who also stole from the convenience store where Peter was buying milk. So that was two times Peter saw him. Seeing him as an easy patsy, he thought it was easy to frame him because the burglar would look like he was stalking Peter, so it was not a stretch to imagine he'd also be stalking the Parker family.

 

[Flint Marko]

Point me to a post where they were 100%. debunked, please? Because if I'm still arguing against it, that means I never will. Just because you guys say it's untrue or delusional does not make me suddenly change my tune. I'll have these issues until Marvel proves otherwise or/and I see the movie & I'm wrong. As of right, there's nothing out there that blows a hole in my argument.

Here are two posts that flat out disprove your claims using actual evidence from the films. Anyone thinking rationally would see that this 100% blows a hole in your argument, that argument, for the record, being that Ben "has no affect on Peter". You flat out ignored them because you have no rebuttal.

We know for a fact that Peter was affected by Ben's death because they flat out say as much in Civil War. This has been pointed out by harry on a number of occasions.

I couldn't disagree more.

Not affected? He still suited up didn't he? Didn't you see the subtle and distant way he recounted the Great Responsibility speech? He wasn't using the same tone and pep from the earlier part of scene I like that they did it this way since EVERYONE knows it. In real life, when people have pain and a loss and a bit of time has passed, they don't immediately go on about said tragedy in a monologue at the drop of a hat.

He's trying to maintain composure, but also you can see it in his face that it's there.

Where on earth are you getting "more obsessed with the Avengers than saving lives", dude? I get that you don't want him to be around Tony, but you're beyond stretching. He was featured only a bit in Cap 3, but Tony's entire basis for finding him was seeing that he fights crime. He's making a difference without knowing that he was noticed by the Premier Superhero group of the MCU. He just goes out and stops crime.

In the trailers he wants to prove himself and not just be treated like a starry eyed kid; it's probably because he's being handed the kid stuff when he knows he can do better and wants to risk that . Heck he's even doing the straining moment of heroism by preventing civilians from dying.

 

[harryoscop]

I couldn't disagree more.

Not affected? He still suited up didn't he? Didn't you see the subtle and distant way he recounted the Great Responsibility speech? He wasn't using the same tone and pep from the earlier part of scene I like that they did it this way since EVERYONE knows it. In real life, when people have pain and a loss and a bit of time has passed, they don't immediately go on about said tragedy in a monologue at the drop of a hat

He's trying to maintain composure, but also you can see it in his face that it's there.

It's realistic but it's a movie. If they wanted people to know he had an Uncle Ben they would've said so. As for evidece there's no Uncle Ben, I'll say what I said to Flint--

Ummm, that could've easily just been Marvel's way of respecting/referencing Ben without actually including him. "Because we've already seeeeennn it " What is your 100%. confirmation he was talking about Uncle Ben? There honestly is none. You're suppose to assume because he says something similar to "With Great Power' he MUST be talking about Ben. But that's exactly that, an ASSUMPTION. And May doesn't seem to be bothered at all by her husband's death. She's up-and-about flirting with Tony Stark. You'd think she'd be reluctant because she JUST lost her husband 6 fricking months ago! The fact that Tony is flirting with her is FURTHER prove he's trying to replace Uncle Ben.

Where on earth are you getting "more obsessed with the Avengers than saving lives", dude? I get that you don't want him to be around Tony, but you're beyond stretching. He was featured only a bit in Cap 3, but Tony's entire basis for finding him was seeing that he fights crime. He's making a difference without knowing that he was noticed by the Premier Superhero group of the MCU. He just goes out and stops crime.

Because he said so in the trailer and it blatantly states it in the synopsis. He's tired of being a small-time her and doesn't want to be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man anymore. We have no confirmation he wants to be an Avenger to save lives. What did he do the entirety of his appearance in Civil War? Talk about how awesome the Avengers and kiss up to Tony. He wants to be one of them because he thinks they're awesome. Why does that seem to be his character arc? Why isn't he happy just saving people's lives in NYC? He still saving lives! It's the opposite of the comics (Amazing Spider-Man annuel #3) where they actually came to Spidey to ask HIM to join. He was happy because he knew he was making a difference, he knew that he didn't need to be an Avenger to be a great hero.

In the trailers he wants to prove himself and not just be treated like a starry eyed kid; it's probably because he's being handed the kid stuff when he knows he can do better and wants to risk that . Heck he's even doing the straining moment of heroism by preventing civilians from dying.

I really hope he wants to prove himself a legitimate hero and not a fricking Avenger. If I had powers and was helping people every single day, I would not need to be an Avenger unless I wanted more recognition and popularity for my heroic deeds.

 

[Airnick]

I posted this before, but I do think Uncle Ben was pretty much alluded to during this scene. Now sure he wasn't actually mentioned during Civil War, but I'm sure we'll either see some sort of flashback or at least a mention in Homecoming.

https://instagram.com/p/BFVLqbTPbHK/

 

[Flint Marko]

Here's Harry admitting that they were referencing Ben with that bit of dialogue:

Ummm, that could've easily just been Marvel's way of respecting/referencing Ben without actually including him.

Now here is Harry asking for confirmation that they were referencing Ben with that bit of dialogue:

What is your 100%. confirmation he was talking about Uncle Ben? There honestly is none. You're suppose to assume because he says something similar to "With Great Power' he MUST be talking about Ben. But that's exactly that, an ASSUMPTION.

Here's a quote from Joe Russo flat out confirming what we all know to be true:

Joe Russo: And he’s not a kid who would necessarily come to that kind of profound realization yet. He still has a journey to go. You’re correct. It shouldn’t be in this film that he comes to that. However, we were intimating that there is a complicated history that this kid has, that there is an Uncle Ben in his past, and that’s something that clearly happened.
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Read more at http://www.craveonline.com/entertai...rothers-spider-man-gambit#lPsPbGh9ryfSxFrQ.99

Let's get to the fun part. Here's Harry claiming that May is flirting with Stark, further "proving that he's trying to replace Uncle Ben.":

And May doesn't seem to be bothered at all by her husband's death. She's up-and-about flirting with Tony Stark. You'd think she'd be reluctant because she JUST lost her husband 6 fricking months ago! The fact that Tony is flirting with her is FURTHER prove he's trying to replace Uncle Ben.

Let's take a look at that flirty exchange between Stark and May:

Stark: "It's so hard to believe this is someone's Aunt."
May: "We come in all shapes and sizes, you know"
Stark: "This walnut date loaf is exceptional. Can I have five minutes with him?"
May: "Sure."

This is what Harry is using to "prove" that Stark is flirting with May, therefore Stark is trying to replace Uncle Ben.

The earlier bit of "proof" that was provided where Peter all but flat out mentions Ben as the reason why he gets out of the twin bed in the morning, that even Harry flat out admits is them referencing Ben, and that even the director confirmed was them referencing Ben, wasn't enough proof for Harry. But that brief exchange I just posted between May and Tony is enough proof for him to say that May is oblivious to Ben's death, and that Stark is going to replace Ben. Unbelievable

 

[harryoscop]

Oh, well Joe confirmed it I guess.. Why didn't you just post that info before? We could've avoided ALL of this

 

[harryoscop]

TASM1 references the wrestling ring aspect of Spidey's origin by having him fall into the wrestling ring and stare at the luchador mask. Does that mean the wrestling happened? NO. It's a reference, meant to remind you. Same thing could have been applied here

 

[Flint Marko]

Oh, well Joe confirmed it I guess.. Why didn't you just post that info before? We could've avoided ALL of this

Silly me for assuming that you had seen Civil War and watched that scene between Peter and Stark. The intention of that scene could not have been clearer, but I guess needed the film-maker's confirmation to prove something that we all know to be true.

Anyways, tell us more about May flirting with Stark.

TASM1 references the wrestling ring aspect of Spidey's origin by having him fall into the wrestling ring and stare at the luchador mask. Does that mean the wrestling happened? NO. It's a reference, meant to remind you. Same thing could have been applied here

Garfield's Spider-man happened to just fall into a wrestling ring as a little wink to the audience, whereas Holland's Peter was straight up referencing something that he had directly experienced. We all knew what he was talking about, save for you simply because you are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[harryoscop]

Silly me for assuming that you had seen Civil War and watched that scene between Peter and Stark. The intention of that scene could not have been clearer, but I guess needed the film-maker's confirmation to prove something that we all know to be true.

Anyways, tell us more about May flirting with Stark.



Garfield's Spider-man happened to just fall into a wrestling ring as a little wink to the audience, whereas Holland's Peter was straight up referencing something that he had directly experienced. We all knew what he was talking about, save for you simply because you are being deliberately obtuse.

Okay. Uncle Ben exists. But why is Peter obsessed with Tony then? He should know responsibilty because of what happened to Uncle Ben. And May was totally into Stark. Look at the history between MT and RDJ.

 

[ImSGirl95]

And May was totally into Stark. Look at the history between MT and RDJ.

Is this really your proof for the argument? Really?
LMAO!
You killed me, harry!

 

[Flint Marko]

Okay. Uncle Ben exists.

Harry's finally on board with something everyone knew since day one.
I give it a week or two before you're claiming that Uncle Ben doesn't exist again.

But why is Peter obsessed with Tony then?

Even if Peter is "obsessed" with Tony, that doesn't even slightly negate Ben's impact on him.

He should know responsibilty because of what happened to Uncle Ben.

What in the world are you going to try and use to claim that Peter doesn't know responsibility? Whatever it is, I'm looking forward to everyone here being able to easily dismantle it just as your previous arguments.

And May was totally into Stark. Look at the history between MT and RDJ.

And now you are pointing to external meta-knowledge of the film's cast to prove your point because your previous example was so flimsy. You're bad at this.

 

[harryoscop]

Harry's finally on board with something everyone knew since day one.
I give it a week or two before you're claiming that Uncle Ben doesn't exist again.

I mean, Joe said it so I'll take it as a confirmation. But then again, Feige said Spidey would undecided about his involvement in the Avengers & described Spidey differently than what we got..

Even if Peter is "obsessed" with Tony, that doesn't even slightly negate Ben's impact on him.

What does it say about him when he so eager to jump from one father figure to another?

What in the world are you going to try and use to claim that Peter doesn't know responsibility? Whatever it is, I'm looking forward to everyone here being able to easily dismantle it just as your previous arguments.

Well, for one thing he came as extremely immature in the CW Airport fight. Not caring about the conflict itself, concerning himself with impressing Tony than resolving the fight. Completely out of character for Spider-Man. For another he's more obsessive with the Avengers than his promise to Uncle Ben which I've already shown evidence for.

And now you are pointing to external meta-knowledge of the film's cast to prove your point because your previous example was so flimsy. You're bad at this.

Whatever, it's definitively something that could happened. They've already knocked Pepper out of the picture... I wonder why.

 

[Flint Marko]

I mean, Joe said it so I'll take it as a confirmation. But then again, Feige said Spidey would undecided about his involvement in the Avengers & described Spidey differently than what we got..

You'd maybe (but still probably not) have a leg to stand on if they didn't flat out put it in the movie.
You are arguing with something that was blatantly displayed by the movie and confirmed by the film-makers.

What does it say about him when he so eager to jump from one father figure to another?

Oh look, more hyperbolic nonsense.
There's nothing to imply that Peter is looking for a father figure in Stark, but I look forward to watching you flail to try and prove otherwise.

Well, for one thing he came as extremely immature in the CW Airport fight. Not caring about the conflict itself. For another he's more obsessive with the Avengers than his promise to Uncle Ben which I've already shown evidence for.

What "evidence"? Please show me this aforementioned evidence. We've already established how hilarious your definition of "evidence" is so this is something else I'm looking forward to. I'm about to have to spend most of this day away from the internet, but I'm really excited to read your response.

Whatever, it's definitively something that could happened. They've already knocked Pepper out of the picture... I wonder why.

Grasp for those straws, Harry. They're all you got.

 

[harryoscop]

Last reply until later today

You'd have more of a leg to stand on if they didn't flat out put it in the movie.
You are arguing with something that was blatantly displayed by the movie and confirmed by the film-makers.

Well, Feige, Watts ad everybody have been adamant they want to avoid Peter's origin story so not unfounded. I didn't come to this conclusion because I want to complain

Oh look, more hyperbolic nonsense.
There's nothing to imply that Peter is looking for a father figure in Stark, but I look forward to watching you flail to try and prove otherwise.

Uhhhhh, because they've been forcing it down our throats? Peter practically idolizes Stark. He gets his tech from Stark. He gets advice from Stark. He's clearly playing the father figure in his life right now

What "evidence"? Please show me this aforementioned evidence. We've already established how hilarious your definition of "evidence" is so this is something else I'm looking forward to. I'm about to have to spend most of this day away from the internet, but I'm really excited to read your response.

I already showed you some. Or pointed some out

Grasp for those straws, Harry. They're all you got.

I'm just saying, it's pretty odd

 

[Arachnerd]

Hey guys, what's going o-

*sees Harry being hyperbolic again for countless pages*

Welp, bye.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

I would really hope we wouldn't get Ultimate Goblin. As much as I love those comics, it works in that universe and that universe only IMO.

I agree with MBJ. I'm not a fan of skinny Venom & I think it'd be better for Marvel to go the hulk route simply because they've already tried human-sized Venom in SM3. Differentiation. That being said, I was introduced to Venom via Ultimate Spider-Man (that was my introduction to the comics) so the monstrous designs will always be my favorite look for Venom.

That was my first Venom too. I love it with the Bagley aesthetic, but like a lot of things, I think it really only works with the Bagley aesthetic.

I think they'll go that route. They might not have her with powers right away but I think she'll be a SHIELD or SWORD agent for sure.

Totally down with that.

That varies from character to character. There are obvious ones like Falcon, Nick Fury and Hawkeye but Iron Man (as well as his supporting cast), Thor (and his supporting characters like Loki and what not), Black Widow and Hulk all skew much closer to the Earth 616. In fact none of those films I just mentioned have very much, if any Ultimate influence. Captain America's outfits are visually based on his Ultimate look but his characterization is pure classic Cap. The Ant-Man and Doctor Strange casts are all largely 616 as well, as are the Guardians.

When they go with an Ultimate-style look it's usually (but not always) because the classic look would look stupid in live-action.

I really hope he wants to prove himself a legitimate hero and not a fricking Avenger. If I had powers and was helping people every single day, I would not need to be an Avenger unless I wanted more recognition and popularity for my heroic deeds.

I think most people would be happy to be picked up by the Avengers as affirmation that they're on the right path and giving them confidence to continue doing the right thing. Especially a hero as conflicted as Peter usually is portrayed as.

 

[PeterBenParker]

When they go with an Ultimate-style look it's usually (but not always) because the classic look would look stupid in live-action.

Right, so that would likely mean classic Gobby wouldn't work because it'd look stupid in live action.

If they didn't use this for Vulture:

Spoiler

Or this for Shocker:

Spoiler

Why on Earth would they use this for Green Goblin?

Spoiler

I find it much more likely to see the MCU go full-on Ultimate because:

• It hasn't been done before in its fullest form
• It fits along the likes of Hulk and Abomination
• It works much better with a younger Spider-Man

If by tee, you mean T for turd.

That costume looked nothing like classic 616 Goblin. It was armoured and stiff, unlike the classic costume which is a costume and not an armour, and looks like a Halloween outfit.

That was due to Dafoe wanting to do his own stunts and not feeling comfortable in the original suit.

Hate the suit all you want but there's no denying Dafoe's Gobby was very much classic Green Goblin.

I'd rather we get a faithful Green Goblin for once than now having some monstrous hulking Goblin.

A moderator doesn't have to get involved with harryoscop, he's not attacking anyone or trolling. He however has been ridiculed numerous times for his rants about NuSpider-Man. I don't see the issue, if you don't like what he has to say you may simply ignore him, or even put him on ignore. As far as I know, speculation regarding MCU characters is fair game, be it positive or negative.

 

[Shockdingo]

It's realistic but it's a movie. If they wanted people to know he had an Uncle Ben they would've said so. As for evidece there's no Uncle Ben, I'll say what I said to Flint--

Ummm, that could've easily just been Marvel's way of respecting/referencing Ben without actually including him. "Because we've already seeeeennn it " What is your 100%. confirmation he was talking about Uncle Ben? There honestly is none. You're suppose to assume because he says something similar to "With Great Power' he MUST be talking about Ben. But that's exactly that, an ASSUMPTION.

Occam's razor, dude. In EVERY Major Spider-man media adaptation that's referenced his origin, they've never gone the curvball route with Ben's ties to Peter. Either he's referenced, or it's implied, but it's never changed. I'd give you this point if it were the first and only Spidey appearance in cinema, but it's the THIRD movie franchise in less than a decade dealing with Spider-man intimately and the past two go for a combined 5 movies.

Spider-man is internationally known and beloved by people who don't even read comics. Uncle Ben is a corner stone of popculture references. There's a reason why that one gif of Spidey in the supermarket crying over a box of Uncle Ben's rice is an iconic meme -- Everyone knows it.

Okay. Uncle Ben exists. But why is Peter obsessed with Tony then? He should know responsibilty because of what happened to Uncle Ben. And May was totally into Stark. Look at the history between MT and RDJ.

He's one of the most popular and successful geniuses of the modern age, a billionaire, and in their world the first modern super hero. The tech connection alone would get a fellow inventor excited, but then throw in that Tony knows Spidey's deepest and pivotal secret, but isn't going to expose it, he's going to nurture it and encourage him to be able to do more.

You're telling me if a celebrity, writer, person you greatly admired from a far took a personal interest in you, you wouldn't be over the moon? It's a dream come true for a young teenager to be that recognized. It's a dream for anyone to be recognized in that way.

He never shows that he learns responsibility from Tony. He's already got it, and being excited by Tony isn't him replacing Ben. He's happy and excited, not turning over picture frames and worshiping at his tech altar.

She was charmed sure. It's similar to what I said above for Pete. A meteor of charm is in her living room and showing interest in her, she's happy and excited. She's not screaming that she wants a date, she's not making coy references that she's available.