Homecoming Spider-Man Homecoming (2017) General Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 89

[Michael Frost]

But Spider-Man vs. Vulture and nothing else, doesn't not sound like a very exciting climax, I never bought Vulture as a physical threat to Spidey in the comics. Really how is Vulture still in Spider-Man's league in the comics, it seems like he stays in groups of other villains to remain a threat to Spidey nowadays.

This is an interesting thought/problem for the filmakers to solve. But I'll say this - it's not necessarily about "power levels". It's about context, stakes and character drama. I think nowadays people always assume that we need to have these doomsday, epic final acts when in reality those types of things tend to get overblown for cinematic purposes doing no service to the story or characters and just overall feeling bloated. How many people thought it was a breath of fresh air that the story in Deadpool was really simple and downscaled to a small personal story?

I agree that, if we were going for serious physical matches for Spidey, we'd be looking at around 3 or 4 main villains, all of which were already done on the big screen in some form or other. But that's not really the point now is it?

I'd argue that, specially in Spidey's case, his villain roster isn't really made out of those main big threats but actually just people with superpowers that want to rob banks. In the big course of development and history for this character, he's not really about the people that he fights. I'd even go further into saying that, even if people assume that Goblin is his nemesis because he's the one that's done the most damage to his life, Spiderman doesn't really have that one nemesis that's the perfect yang to his ying, the Joker to his Batman, the one villain you think about when you think Spiderman. Goblin was graduated to that level because they needed something interesting to happen in the comics and they decided to kill Gwen. Otherwise he'd just be robbing banks like he started out.

No, Spiderman is actually about the everyday man struggling with his responsibility towards family, friends, school and his responsibility towards saving the city from some street-level threats. It's that conflict that's at the forefront of the character. Not the fact that Vulture is just an old guy that he can punch up in a quick fight. Villains are obstacles for him to overcome or juggle with his personal life drama as a normal dude. There's plenty of situations that they can create where Vulture becomes a real threat and makes for a compelling villain. We'll see how it goes

 

[Kurenai]

You guys think we'll get a trailer in front of dr strange?

A full trailer or a teaser; but it would make sense if we got something.

I'd rather have her in the movie than Stark

http://tinyurl.com/zcjksnr

I wonder if she's working on another project, I kind of don't care for the mcu version of the character but whatever.

 

[John Locke]

The lenses look great

The logo looks 3D. Maybe he presses it to activate stealth mode or the arm pit webs or something.

 

[Web-Head]

In regards to the Vulture not being a "threat" I'll share what I posted in the villain thread...

They're going to make Vulture much more of a threat than he is in the comics. According to Holland, we haven't seen anything yet, he's a real formidable foe and is scary. Exactly why he has the tech suit

Sounds great to me

 

[Xrated48]

I'd rather have her in the movie than Stark

http://tinyurl.com/zcjksnr

Yes yes yes

 

[The Overlord]

This is an interesting thought/problem for the filmakers to solve. But I'll say this - it's not necessarily about "power levels". It's about context, stakes and character drama. I think nowadays people always assume that we need to have these doomsday, epic final acts when in reality those types of things tend to get overblown for cinematic purposes doing no service to the story or characters and just overall feeling bloated. How many people thought it was a breath of fresh air that the story in Deadpool was really simple and downscaled to a small personal story?

I agree that, if we were going for serious physical matches for Spidey, we'd be looking at around 3 or 4 main villains, all of which were already done on the big screen in some form or other. But that's not really the point now is it?

I'd argue that, specially in Spidey's case, his villain roster isn't really made out of those main big threats but actually just people with superpowers that want to rob banks. In the big course of development and history for this character, he's not really about the people that he fights. I'd even go further into saying that, even if people assume that Goblin is his nemesis because he's the one that's done the most damage to his life, Spiderman doesn't really have that one nemesis that's the perfect yang to his ying, the Joker to his Batman, the one villain you think about when you think Spiderman. Goblin was graduated to that level because they needed something interesting to happen in the comics and they decided to kill Gwen. Otherwise he'd just be robbing banks like he started out.

No, Spiderman is actually about the everyday man struggling with his responsibility towards family, friends, school and his responsibility towards saving the city from some street-level threats. It's that conflict that's at the forefront of the character. Not the fact that Vulture is just an old guy that he can punch up in a quick fight. Villains are obstacles for him to overcome or juggle with his personal life drama as a normal dude. There's plenty of situations that they can create where Vulture becomes a real threat and makes for a compelling villain. We'll see how it goes

Except how relevant are bank robbers anymore? Cyber crime has replaced bank robbery as the crime of getting money easily, bank robbery is in serious decline as a crime. Not mention people don't like banks, the bank owners are more likely to screw you over then the people robbing them, its hard for Spidey to be an every man if all he does is defend the insurance rates of bank owners. Why should I care if Spidey stops a bank robbery or not, there are no stakes to that, if Spidey fails there are no meaningful consequences, the money is insured and the money will likely be ruined by an ink pack, it really doesn't matter whether Spidey stops a bank robber or not, that is filler stuff, not the stuff that should make up the main plot.

Spidey is supposed to have the second best rogues gallery in comics, how is that the case if so many of his villains have no personality beyond "greedy bank robber"? Its so generic and if almost all of Spidey's villains are like that, it makes them interchangeable.

Plus a movie is supposed to have 3 acts that build to a climax. You can't do that with a villain who just robs banks for 2 hours, that is not epic enough to be a movie.

Kligrave from Jessica Jones wasn't out to take over the world, but his crimes were far darker then simple robbery and Ajax ran a slave ring, that seems more important to stop then bank robbery, bank robbing doesn't cut it as the MO of a Big Bad of a film. If that all that Vulture is, how will he not be another dull Malekith style villain that the MCU loves to produce?

A good movie can have a good villain and good character drama for the hero at the same time, its not one or the other. Spider-Man 2 hit that balance and a weak villain can suck the energy from a story, look at Thor 2.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Except how relevant are bank robbers anymore? Cyber crime has replaced bank robbery as the crime of getting money easily, bank robbery is in serious decline as a crime. Not mention people don't like banks, the bank owners are more likely to screw you over then the people robbing them, its hard for Spidey to be an every man if all he does is defend the insurance rates of bank owners. Why should I care if Spidey stops a bank robbery or not, there are no stakes to that, if Spidey fails there are no meaningful consequences, the money is insured and the money will likely be ruined by an ink pack, it really doesn't matter whether Spidey stops a bank robber or not, that is filler stuff, not the stuff that should make up the main plot.

Spidey is supposed to have the second best rogues gallery in comics, how is that the case if so many of his villains have no personality beyond "greedy bank robber"? Its so generic and if almost all of Spidey's villains are like that, it makes them interchangeable.

Plus a movie is supposed to have 3 acts that build to a climax. You can't do that with a villain who just robs banks for 2 hours, that is not epic enough to be a movie.

Kligrave from Jessica Jones wasn't out to take over the world, but his crimes were far darker then simple robbery and Ajax ran a slave ring, that seems more important to stop then bank robbery, bank robbing doesn't cut it as the MO of a Big Bad of a film. If that all that Vulture is, how will he not be another dull Malekith style villain that the MCU loves to produce?

A good movie can have a good villain and good character drama for the hero at the same time, its not one or the other. Spider-Man 2 hit that balance and a weak villain can suck the energy from a story, look at Thor 2.

I don't think anyone wants him to be just a bank robber. And i'm fairly certain that's not the direction they're heading in.

 

[ImSGirl95]

Black Widow in the movie? Interesting!

 

[VelcroWallet]

I knew they'd shoehorn in another Avenger. lol

 

[Michael Frost]

Except how relevant are bank robbers anymore?

Not very. But that's the wrong question to what I said.

I didn't say he should be a bank robber. I said that he should be an obstacle and his real threat comes from the fact that he's a villain wanting to do *insert motivation here* ADDED to the fact that Peter also has to worry about mundane stuff like, random example, not letting his girlfriend down for the 3rd time.

Kligrave from Jessica Jones wasn't out to take over the world, but his crimes were far darker then simple robbery and Ajax ran a slave ring, that seems more important to stop then bank robbery, bank robbing doesn't cut it as the MO of a Big Bad of a film.

Again, you're focusing on the bank robber argument and that's not what I said but you do provide two beautiful examples of downscaled motivations and plots that are smaller in scope but feel just as personal and provide awesome character gravitas.

That's what I was saying. You can make it smaller scaled without it losing it's perceived impact just because Vulture is a B/C lister type of villain.

 

[The Overlord]

Not very. But that's the wrong question to what I said.

I didn't say he should be a bank robber. I said that he should be an obstacle and his real threat comes from the fact that he's a villain wanting to do *insert motivation here* ADDED to the fact that Peter also has to worry about mundane stuff like, random example, not letting his girlfriend down for the 3rd time.



Again, you're focusing on the bank robber argument and that's not what I said but you do provide two beautiful examples of downscaled motivations and plots that are smaller in scope but feel just as personal and provide awesome character gravitas.

That's what I was saying. You can make it smaller scaled without it losing it's perceived impact just because Vulture is a B/C lister type of villain.

But then answer my question, if Vulture is not robbing banks (which I think we established is an almost no stakes situation and not really suitable for the villainous plot of a major movie) what would Vulture be doing that is downscale in motives, but is still caries enough valid stakes to make for a compelling movie?

I think the core of Spider-Man's mythos is him having to choose between his personal life and the greater good, but the greater good has to be something real, something important, saving lives, rather then saving some bank's insurance rate. If the greater good doesn't seem important, why shouldn't he let some two bit villain rob a bank and go on a date instead, its not a big deal if he doesn't stop him, unless the robber is planning on killing tellers or something, because otherwise all that is going to happen is the bank's insurance rate will go up and the robber will see his money ruined by an ink pack, that doesn't seem like a sacrifice worth making for Peter's personal happiness. It seems like the cops can handle two bit bank robbing villains, there really is no need for Spider-Man to break any commitments for such no stakes affair.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

But then answer my question, if Vulture is not robbing banks (which I think we established is an almost no stakes situation and not really suitable for the villainous plot of a major movie) what would Vulture be doing that is downscale in motives, but is still caries enough valid stakes to make for a compelling movie?

I think the core of Spider-Man's mythos is him having to choose between his personal life and the greater good, but the greater good has to be something real, something important, saving lives, rather then saving some bank's insurance rate. If the greater good doesn't seem important, why shouldn't he let some two bit villain rob a bank and go on a date instead, its not a big deal if he doesn't stop him, unless the robber is planning on killing tellers or something, because otherwise all that is going to happen is the bank's insurance rate will go up and the robber will see his money ruined by an ink pack, that doesn't seem like a sacrifice worth making for Peter's personal happiness.

Because robberies aren't these smooth transactions like you make em seem. **** can hit the fan fast and innocent victims end up in the crosshairs. Spidey would be there to help the victims as well as the cops so that no one gets hurt. It's not about the bank.

 

[The Overlord]

Because robberies aren't these smooth transactions like you make em seem. **** can hit the fan fast and innocent victims end up in the crosshairs. Spidey would be there to help the victims as well as the cops so that no one gets hurt. It's not about the bank.

Actually most tellers are trained to give the robbers the money and not resist and many robbers are smart enough to try not to kill people, so they don't get a murder charge and don't get shot by the cops. Also bank robbery is a crime in decline, with most criminals realizing cyber crime gets you more money for less effort, only really stupid criminals rob banks nowadays. If Vulture is the villain, he would be pretty dumb to go around, robbing banks nowadays. Cyber Crime is also less violent, criminals don't have to deal cops or tellers or public, if they just hack the bank's mainframe.

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2013/04/26/bank_robbers_why_do_they_even_bother_anymore.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323926104578274541161239474

The whole super villain robbing banks to make a quick buck is an outdated cliche. You may as well have Spidey stop bootleggers well you are at it, bank robbery is one of many things being fazed out by the digital age.

Again why can't cops handle bank robbers in comic books? Do they not have ink packs in the Marvel universe, it seems like that would deter bank robberies? I hate it when heroes only seem necessary in the Marvel universe, because all the regular authorities and businesses are portrayed as morons.

A bank robbery should happen in the first or second act, an excuse for fun little action scene at the beginning of the film, but it should never be the main villain's end game and it should not be the climax of the film, it should not be the meat of the story and you are avoiding my question, if Vulture is the villain, what would the meat of the story really be?

It seems like stopping a villain who has plans to intentionally hurt people, is a bigger problem then a bank robber who generally won't end up hurting anyone, unless there is unusual circumstances involved (most bank robberies do end non violently, because most tellers and customers just let them take the money). The greater good is to stop the villain with more active hostile intentions and let the cops handle the bank robbers.

 

[harryoscop]

Really hope the BW news isn't true. Don't really see why she's need to be in this other than to have a tacked on Avenger cameo.

 

[Spidey_62]

This is an interesting thought/problem for the filmakers to solve. But I'll say this - it's not necessarily about "power levels". It's about context, stakes and character drama. I think nowadays people always assume that we need to have these doomsday, epic final acts when in reality those types of things tend to get overblown for cinematic purposes doing no service to the story or characters and just overall feeling bloated. How many people thought it was a breath of fresh air that the story in Deadpool was really simple and downscaled to a small personal story?

I agree that, if we were going for serious physical matches for Spidey, we'd be looking at around 3 or 4 main villains, all of which were already done on the big screen in some form or other. But that's not really the point now is it?

I'd argue that, specially in Spidey's case, his villain roster isn't really made out of those main big threats but actually just people with superpowers that want to rob banks. In the big course of development and history for this character, he's not really about the people that he fights. I'd even go further into saying that, even if people assume that Goblin is his nemesis because he's the one that's done the most damage to his life, Spiderman doesn't really have that one nemesis that's the perfect yang to his ying, the Joker to his Batman, the one villain you think about when you think Spiderman. Goblin was graduated to that level because they needed something interesting to happen in the comics and they decided to kill Gwen. Otherwise he'd just be robbing banks like he started out.

No, Spiderman is actually about the everyday man struggling with his responsibility towards family, friends, school and his responsibility towards saving the city from some street-level threats. It's that conflict that's at the forefront of the character. Not the fact that Vulture is just an old guy that he can punch up in a quick fight. Villains are obstacles for him to overcome or juggle with his personal life drama as a normal dude. There's plenty of situations that they can create where Vulture becomes a real threat and makes for a compelling villain. We'll see how it goes

Yeah, Kevin Feige said something last year after Age of Ultron came out that I really agreed with. He said how Inside Out came out that same summer and the stakes in that felt much bigger than their own Age of Ultron which had a city floating and extinction impending. Inside Out's big conflict was just about a girl and her own inner struggles. Feige said some more stuff later saying how they wanted to do something similar for Spider-Man: the stakes are smaller scale but if we care and relate to what's going on it hits home more than the artifice of the big world-ending events probably would. It feels like the right approach to take for Spider-Man right now, I think.

 

[SpideyJJ]

Really hope the BW news isn't true. Don't really see why she's need to be in this other than to have a tacked on Avenger cameo.

Same here

 

[Spider-man95]

If she's in the movie it will be a very small part. For all we know she could just be visiting.

 

[Silvermoon]

You guys think we'll get a trailer in front of dr strange?

The following is just my opinion, but - under normal circumstances, I wouldn't think so. Majority of the MCU movies tend to drop the first trailer/teaser trailer roughly between 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 months before the U.S. release date. With Doctor Strange would put it at about 8 months before Spider-Man's release date.

Now, I did say normal circumstances... it's possible they might do things differently here given the unique situation with Sony.

If they do keep with MCU trend, I could see the trailer dropping in time to be put in front of Rogue One as a stronger possibility.

Doctor Strange is more likely to have GotG vol. 2's first trailer.


(again, that's just my take on it)

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'd rather have her in the movie than Stark

Spoiler

http://tinyurl.com/zcjksnr

I'd rather have neither.

 

[Dark Raven]

Really hope the BW news isn't true. Don't really see why she's need to be in this other than to have a tacked on Avenger cameo.

If they also have War Machine and Nick Fury in it, then you can look at it differently. Spider-Man will just have been shoe-horned into Iron Man 2.

 

[Web-Head]

The Vulture will be 100% CGI, won't he?
Aunt Tomei was on set for 4 hours Monday https://twitter.com/AtlantaFilming/status/759022828532277248

 

[TheWallCrawler]

The Vulture will be 100% CGI, won't he?
Aunt Tomei was on set for 4 hours Monday https://twitter.com/AtlantaFilming/status/759022828532277248

some stuff will likely be shot with a physical suit with wings added later in CGI, like the do with falcon. but that all depends on how much time Vulture spends on the ground, which probably wont be much

 

[MbJ]

Really hope the BW news isn't true. Don't really see why she's need to be in this other than to have a tacked on Avenger cameo.

I'm hearing Black Widow and Iron Man are key to taking down the Vulture.

 

[Dark Raven]

I'm hearing Black Widow and Iron Man are key to taking down the Vulture.

Spidey will be knocked out for the duration of the battle so it will be up to those 2 to save the day.

Or he has a homework assignment so they tell him to make that his priority while they handle the Vulture.

 

[Kurenai]

Laura Harrier is back in NYC.

So from what we know:

- The high school scenes have all been shot (supposedly).
- The high school extras are seemingly done.
- Zendaya will resume filming at a later date.
- Laura is either on break or is done filming.
- Tony and Jacob are still in Atlanta.
- RDJ has arrived.
- Scarlett was spotted in Atlanta.
- Keaton has not started filming.