Star Wars prequels vs Star Trek reboot series

[dax]

Making Yoda dumb as a box of rocks in the prequels is not my idea of sticking to the original portrayal. Obi-Wan isn't likable either, which is a huge step backwards from the original portrayal. And the prequel portrayal of Anakin does not line up AT ALL with what Alec Guinness says about him in A New Hope. The prequel version of Anakin is arrogant, rude, and has a short fuse from the beginning.

At no point is it believable that Obi-Wan could consider the prequel Anakin a "good friend" as described in A New Hope. At no point is it believable that Padme could fall in love with him. George's biggest failure was in making Anakin such an unlikable character. If your goal is tragedy, you need a likable character to begin with. Michael Corleone in the Godfather is a good example of how you start with a likable character and gradually turn him into a monster.

Heck, Darth Vader in the original trilogy is more likable than Anakin in the prequels. That is how piss poor the characterization, direction, and acting was for this character in the prequel films.

Why do any of you still believe anything Obi-wan says about Anakin, especially after Darth Vader uttered the words, "I am your father" in ESB? Even if the prequels hadn't existed, Anakin wouldn't have betrayed Obi-wan or tried to kill him the first time if he was really a "good friend". Maybe, Anakin was never a likable character to begin with because otherwise, Obi-wan and Yoda wouldn't have hidden Luke and Leia from their father as soon as they were born.

He was always a bad character from the beginning. The way the character is written, he never deserves Padme. The two of them hook up simply because Lucas needed them to. He is an immature jerk and never shows enough likable characteristics to believe a good person like Padme would fall in love with him.

Not enough likable characteristics? How about the fact that Anakin saved Padme's home planet from the trade federation, he saved her from those poisonous worms, he helped her afford a new hyperdrive engine for her ship so she could go to Coruscant, and he shielded her from incoming blaster fire during the battle of Geonosis. Those actions are what made Padme fall in love with Anakin.

As for the Anakin/Padme subplot, I think he just used the Force to brainwash her into loving him.

I don't think so. During the picnic scene, Anakin told Padme that the Jedi mind tricks don't work on her.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Why do any of you still believe anything Obi-wan says about Anakin, especially after Darth Vader uttered the words, "I am your father" in ESB?

That doesn't contradict what Obi-Wan said. He said Vader killed Luke's father. If you believe Vader and Anakin are two separate personalities in the same body, then what Obi-Wan said is true.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Yup. Obi Wan was being symbolic. Being Vader 'killed' what little was left of Anakin. Only to be reborn, a 'return' of Anakin the Jedi when he kills the Emperor.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Yup. Obi Wan was being symbolic. Being Vader 'killed' what little was left of Anakin. Only to be reborn, a 'return' of Anakin the Jedi when he kills the Emperor.

Of course the flip side is that Lucas made up the whole thing after the first Star Wars and Vader indeed was a totally different person from Anakin in the original film. Even if he did make up the whole thing after the fact, it works pretty well until you get to the prequels and realize what a jerk Anakin is.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The prequels don't exist in my personal canon.

 

[redfirebird2008]

The prequels don't exist in my personal canon.

That is not the worst approach. There is a lot of stuff in them that directly contradicts what we see in the originals. Setting aside all the problems with Anakin, there is also the ridiculous prequel dialogue about how only a Sith deals in absolutes. Straight from Yoda in Empire Strikes Back: "Do or do not, there is no try." So is Yoda a Sith?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I would tolerate the contradictions if they were good films. But they are not. Look at First Class, that film also contradicted the X-men OT a lot, but it was a good flick.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I would tolerate the contradictions if they were good films. But they are not. Look at First Class, that film also contradicted the X-men OT a lot, but it was a good flick.

That's true. I think a lot more would be forgiven if the main characters were likable. McAvoy and Fassbender are very likable in First Class. The same is just not true of the supposed protagonists in the Star Wars prequels. It's a shame Lucas did not get some help from another writer and perhaps hire a producer who would not just be a "yes" man for him.

 

[Napoleon]

X-Men: First Class did Anikan and Oni-Wan's friendship and Anikan's fall to the dark side better in one movie than Lucas did in three.

 

[Broseph44]

X-Men: First Class did Anikan and Oni-Wan's friendship and Anikan's fall to the dark side better in one movie than Lucas did in three.

Truth

 

[BatLobster]

I think unfortunately due to how Lucas structured the prequels, you do miss a lot of Obi-Wan and Anakin being "good friends". Not only because of the time jump between TPM and AOTC but also because they're split up for much of AOTC.

However, I do think they did a good job selling their friendship in ROTS, and making Anakin more likable too. You get to actually see them do a daring rescue mission together and it very much feels like "another day in the life of Anakin/Obi during the Clone Wars". It's a very swashbuckling Saturday morning serial type of sequence. I know we probably should've gotten more of that, but you can't say it's totally absent. It's there in the Coruscant chase sequence in AOTC too.

Their relationship in ROTS is actually handled much better. There's a nice scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan where Anakin acknowledges that he's been arrogant and not appreciative of his training, and apologizes for it and Obi-Wan responds by telling him how proud he is of him. It's a warm moment that very much feels like the culmination of two guys who have been through a lot, had their ups and downs and at the end of the day are best friends. And it's their last scene together before the Sith hits the fan.

So personally I don't have a problem believing Alec Guinness when he refers to Luke's father as an old friend. It was not handled perfectly by any means, but it's also not like that element wasn't there. And Ewan was very likable as Obi-Wan, even most prequel haters acknowledge that. The flaw with the Jedi Order in the prequels is that they've become complacent and stuck in their ways, and Obi-Wan is very much a by the book Jedi that isn't looking to rock the boat too much. But you do sympathize with him because he had a radical teacher and a difficult student, and he's always sort of in the position where has to be the "saner" one. Ewan played it great though. Obi-Wan is the guy you can always depend on in the prequels. You need someone like Obi-Wan on your team, it's just that unfortunately for him in the prequels, the Jedi were f***ed from the start.

Anyway, I agree that the prequels aren't the best movies, but I do feel like there's this trend to break down literally every single choice made in the PT like it was some egregious misstep and I think that can get a little carried away. There's plenty there that does work, which makes the things that don't work stand out all the more.

They're flawed movies, nowhere near the originals, but I don't think they "ruined the saga", "raped my childhood" or any of that hyperbole. I'm still very much captivated by the mythology of Star Wars- including the area of the mythology that the prequels opened up.

 

[redfirebird2008]

X-Men: First Class did Anikan and Oni-Wan's friendship and Anikan's fall to the dark side better in one movie than Lucas did in three.

Well said!!! Depressing though.

 

[Lord]

The problem between their friendship was mostly in Episode II, i think Revenge of the Sith's intro did it well, but it felt like it lacked more set-up from previous films.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

If Episode I was Attack of the Clones, Episode II was the Clone Wars animated series, and Episode III was Revenge of the Sith, I think the films would be a lot more popular. There would still be some major issues, most notably the wooden performances and obvious CGI, but it would work far better as a story.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Which actor would you have guys have cast as Anakin in place of Hayden Christensen?

 

[Rowsdower!]

Which actor would you have guys have cast as Anakin in place of Hayden Christensen?

Ian Somerhalder comes to mind. He's about the same age and was actually in that movie Life as a House with Hayden. He's also better at playing darker and more complex characters. I don't know, maybe he would have sucked too, but I can't imagine anyone being worse than Heydon't Actagain.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Which actor would you have guys have cast as Anakin in place of Hayden Christensen?

DiCaprio or Ledger.

 

[Slushy]

The prequels don't exist in my personal canon.

They do in mine. I just like to pretend Jar Jar never existed and Anakin was a badass Jedi who was greedy for power that went to the dark side instead of being a whiny, little b*tch.

 

[Napoleon]

DiCaprio or Ledger.

Ledger would have been incredible. Seriously, why didn't Lucas give him a call (or more importantly, what made him thing Hayden was a good choice in the first place)?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I can see Ledger as Anakin especially if he used his natural, DEEP voice.

 

[Solidus]

I think unfortunately due to how Lucas structured the prequels, you do miss a lot of Obi-Wan and Anakin being "good friends". Not only because of the time jump between TPM and AOTC but also because they're split up for much of AOTC.

However, I do think they did a good job selling their friendship in ROTS, and making Anakin more likable too. You get to actually see them do a daring rescue mission together and it very much feels like "another day in the life of Anakin/Obi during the Clone Wars". It's a very swashbuckling Saturday morning serial type of sequence. I know we probably should've gotten more of that, but you can't say it's totally absent. It's there in the Coruscant chase sequence in AOTC too.

Their relationship in ROTS is actually handled much better. There's a nice scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan where Anakin acknowledges that he's been arrogant and not appreciative of his training, and apologizes for it and Obi-Wan responds by telling him how proud he is of him. It's a warm moment that very much feels like the culmination of two guys who have been through a lot, had their ups and downs and at the end of the day are best friends. And it's their last scene together before the Sith hits the fan.

So personally I don't have a problem believing Alec Guinness when he refers to Luke's father as an old friend. It was not handled perfectly by any means, but it's also not like that element wasn't there. And Ewan was very likable as Obi-Wan, even most prequel haters acknowledge that. The flaw with the Jedi Order in the prequels is that they've become complacent and stuck in their ways, and Obi-Wan is very much a by the book Jedi that isn't looking to rock the boat too much. But you do sympathize with him because he had a radical teacher and a difficult student, and he's always sort of in the position where has to be the "saner" one. Ewan played it great though. Obi-Wan is the guy you can always depend on in the prequels. You need someone like Obi-Wan on your team, it's just that unfortunately for him in the prequels, the Jedi were f***ed from the start.

Anyway, I agree that the prequels aren't the best movies, but I do feel like there's this trend to break down literally every single choice made in the PT like it was some egregious misstep and I think that can get a little carried away. There's plenty there that does work, which makes the things that don't work stand out all the more.

They're flawed movies, nowhere near the originals, but I don't think they "ruined the saga", "raped my childhood" or any of that hyperbole. I'm still very much captivated by the mythology of Star Wars- including the area of the mythology that the prequels opened up.

No. The thing is they are not "flawed" films. They are fundamentally flawed films. From the core out. So the "breakdown" usually stems from a central flaw which was poor film making, and did ruin a massive majority, even if there was great ideas. I don't usually hear people ask someone after seeing a film: "Were there good ideas?" No you hear:"Was the film good?"

But to many it did nearly ruin the saga. But using the "rape your childhood examples" is such a PT defense that just drives me up the wall. Most of us never screamed that, it was a vocal minority that started that and it became more of a joke. But I see it as such a knee jerk reaction that really has no merit on the actual argument being made. At all. Usually it breaks down to the five "rebuttals" that have nothing to do with the actual argument made.

1. You're just being haters
2. Your're just being nostalgic
3. You just were expecting something else.
4. The OT was not that great.
5. You just did not "get" the in depth intelligence of it all.

Of course I have rebutted these many times but none of them have to do with the central argument of these films being extremely poorly made from a very basic film making 101 standpoint.

Forgotten =/= vehemently hated for years to come

Not true. People can hate things, causing one to forget about it quickly. The vehemently hate comes from going to finely crafted films, to what was given, which was very subpar.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Not enough likable characteristics? How about the fact that Anakin saved Padme's home planet from the trade federation, he saved her from those poisonous worms, he helped her afford a new hyperdrive engine for her ship so she could go to Coruscant, and he shielded her from incoming blaster fire during the battle of Geonosis. Those actions are what made Padme fall in love with Anakin.

How romantic.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Which actor would you have guys have cast as Anakin in place of Hayden Christensen?

I don't think it matters. The performances were lousy across the board. The problem was the direction. THE big mistake of the prequels was George Lucas deciding to direct the films himself instead of staying in more of a producer/overseer role while bringing in someone else to do the actual shooting like he did with Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, and Indiana Jones.

 

[Napoleon]

^And even then he more or less shadow-directed RotJ.

 

[dax]

That doesn't contradict what Obi-Wan said. He said Vader killed Luke's father. If you believe Vader and Anakin are two separate personalities in the same body, then what Obi-Wan said is true.

Not even Luke buys that "certain-point-of-view" crap because he's still angry with Obi-wan for lying to him about Vader killing Luke's father. Like me, Luke knows that Vader and Anakin are the same person which is why he told Vader, "I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father".

The problem was the direction. THE big mistake of the prequels was George Lucas deciding to direct the films himself instead of staying in more of a producer/overseer role while bringing in someone else to do the actual shooting like he did with Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, and Indiana Jones.

I don't think George decided to be the director of the prequels right away. I heard reports that he tried to find another director to film the movies (he even begged Steven Spielberg to do it) but they all said, "no" because they feel that George is the only one who can do Star Wars properly.