Stargate SG-1/Atlantis/Universe

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That's why I think Camile should be shot in front of everybody for her failed coup d'etat. It would also make the others think twice about doing it again in the future. And Young would be legally justified in carrying out such a sentence.
 
That's why I think Camile should be shot in front of everybody for her failed coup d'etat. It would also make the others think twice about doing it again in the future. And Young would be legally justified in carrying out such a sentence.

he would not be legally justified in doing that, your statement is proposterous. Mutiny is not the same a civilians overthrowing the military.
 
LOL that is just stupid. If your going to argue at least make reasonable points. ;)
Obviously you do not understand anything about command, or structured order.

Now my point was very valid.. a group of people tried to take over (they wanted to be in command).. Young beat them back.. then said okay, everyone back to business as usual. They could still very well wake up one day and Rush has locked most military people in their rooms, to gain control from the military yet again, whats to stop him? No agreement was met, no punishment was handed out.

You seem to believe anyone can do anything, forget and forgive with no trust or loyalty lost. Does not work that way.

Not really going to argue this anymore :)

not to sound like a hall monitor, but could your posts on the last page be any more condescending? I mean what makes you an authority on such subjects?
 
How's SGU been since coming back from the break? I kind of got a bit bored of the characters (besides Rush)... but if its got some development going on, that might be interesting XD
 
How's SGU been since coming back from the break? I kind of got a bit bored of the characters (besides Rush)... but if its got some development going on, that might be interesting XD

the last two have certainly been better than the BS they were serving up before the break, that's for certain
 
Hmm... starts again over here in the UK, so I'll probably put it down for recording... gives me something else to watch while marking. Score.
 
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he would not be legally justified in doing that, your statement is proposterous. Mutiny is not the same a civilians overthrowing the military.

You are wrong.

Mutiny is a conspiracy among members of a group of similarly-situated individuals (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change or overthrow an existing authority.
Penalty

Most countries still punish mutiny with particularly harsh penalties, sometimes even the death penalty.


United States

The United States’ Uniform Code of Military Justice defines mutiny thus:
Art. 94. (§ 894.) 2004 Mutiny or Sedition. (a) Any person subject to this code (chapter) who— (1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition. (b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.I hope that clears it up for you.
 
You are wrong.

Mutiny is a conspiracy among members of a group of similarly-situated individuals (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change or overthrow an existing authority.
Penalty

Most countries still punish mutiny with particularly harsh penalties, sometimes even the death penalty.


United States

The United States’ Uniform Code of Military Justice defines mutiny thus:
Art. 94. (§ 894.) 2004 Mutiny or Sedition. (a) Any person subject to this code (chapter) who— (1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition. (b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.I hope that clears it up for you.

it doesn't matter what the rules say, excecuting civilians, that are your primary purpose for existing, if they revolt against your idiocy is not going to happen. And this is not a 'crew' of a ship for pete's sake. It's a handful of refugees, not a group of volunteers who have sworn allegiance to a chain of command.

The world is not absolute. Just because the rules say you can, does not mean you are legally justified. As they say, the punishment must fit the crime. Clearly the civilian uprising was a peaceful attempt to settle a major disagreement. This sort of thing would never warrant an excecution, which would be completely unjustified, legally or otherwise.

and if you really want to go 'by the book', Colonel Young, from the audiences perspective, lost all 'legal' authority to be in charge, the moment he left one of the people under his care on a distant planet to die, because he was an annoyance. And therefore, does not have the legal right to anything, except a court martial for himself.
 
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it doesn't matter what the rules say, excecuting civilians, that are your primary purpose for existing, if they revolt against your idiocy is not going to happen. And this is not a 'crew' of a ship for pete's sake. It's a handful of refugees, not a group of volunteers who have sworn allegiance to a chain of command.

Of course it matters what the rules say otherwise it would be complete chaos. And we know rules matter in the mythos of Stargate. The civilians are actually contractors working with the military. They therefore fall under the jurisdiction of the military rules.
The world is not absolute. Just because the rules say you can, does not mean you are legally justified. As they say, the punishment must fit the crime. Clearly the civilian uprising was a peaceful attempt to settle a major disagreement. This sort of thing would never warrant an excecution, which would be completely unjustified, legally or otherwise.

Umm, because the rules say you can DOES mean that it is legally justified. Otherwise how would it be legal to begin with? The civilian uprising was NOT a peaceful attempt by any stretch of the imagination. Lets see what what they did:
1. They took control of most of the vital systems of the ship. They would have taken all of the control if not for other circumstances.
2. They cut off the military from basic necessities (food, water, oxygen).
3. Used blackmail to provide the basic human rights they took away in the first place, to get what they want.
4. Intent to overthrow the rightful leadership, as confirmed by General O'Neil, because they didn't like the decisions that were being made.

It doesn't sound very peaceful to me. Even the more moderate voice of the military personel the medic Lt. Johansen said what the actions of Rush and Camile were an ACT OF WAR.

and if you really want to go 'by the book', Colonel Young, from the audiences perspective, lost all 'legal' authority to be in charge, the moment he left one of the people under his care on a distant planet to die, because he was an annoyance. And therefore, does not have the legal right to anything, except a court martial for himself.

lol, you don't lose your legal authority because some people disagree with your choices. The leader can lose his authority if someone higher ranking them him removes him from his station or an inquiry board or military court, in the case of a military leader. You statement must have been a joke because of its absurdity. lol, it still makes me laugh.

Colonel Young didn't leave Rush on the planet because of annoyance, he left him because Rush was a danger to everybody on the ship. Lets check the facts:
1. Due to Rush's manipulations he caused the death of a crewman in that chair. By law he is culpable in the death even though he didn't force him into the chair. It's like in a bank robbery if one person shoots someone and that person dies, the getaway driver is equally responsible for that death.
2. Rush framed Young for a murder he didn't commit.
3. Rush stole government property (the communication stone) for his own selfish purposes putting the crew in jeopardy from the aliens.

Oh and look at what that same guy does when he comes back on the ship. He colludes with Camile to stage a mutiny. Yup, he is an upstanding citizen and just the kind of guy we need hanging around the ship so he can undermine any semblance of order for his own selfish goals.

In conclusion, this is a military show and you can't just dismiss the rules just because you don't agree with them. The rules are there to create order and that is done through a chain of command. That chain of command has Colonel Young on top. He is recognized as the leader by the SGC and the IOA. Being on Destiny, and with the recent attacks by the aliens, is a case for martial law or in military terms a state of war. And in a state of war the military has near absolute authority.
 
...because the rules say you can DOES mean that it is legally justified...Otherwise how would it be legal to begin with?


let me explain this to you. What is the maximum sentence possible for murder? Excecution and Death. How often is that sentence carried out? Not as often as there are murders. This is because it is not legally justified to excecute all murderers.

likewise in this situation on SGU, excecution is the maximum penalty for mutiny. But that punishment is reserved for severe cases of mutiny... of which this situation on Destiny was not.

the rules may say excecution is an option for punishment, but only if other options of punishment have been exhausted/found useless.

I'm just harping on your use of legally justified. The rules may outline the course of action taken, but that action taken, must be justified under rational rules of expectation and behavior. To apply the maximum penalty to every crime, irregardless of the severity of said crime, is not legally justified.




and please, nothing Rush did warranted desertion on an alien planet zillions of lightyears from earth.

1)he didn't put buddy in the chair, just made the option available
2)framing young for murder, whoopedy doo? how much punishment does that really get you in the real legal world? certainly not gulag on a far off planet without hope of seeing another human ever.
3)yeah, Rush stole the communication stone... so would I, knowing that the commander of this mission doesn't have his head screwed on straight. Moreover, it was that stone which saved the ship in the following episode... and as chief scientist, he also has just as much rightful access to the stones, as anyone on the ship.
 
The reason why the death sentence isn't carried out is because of a backlog of cases. There just isn't enough time in the day for all the cases to be heard before the judges. Your example does not apply here because in a military situation the commanding officer can be judge, jury, and executioner.

I just see the situation on Destiny as a frontline scenario. You don't have time to debate things and put people in jail, because it wastes resources, it detracts from the mission, and it undermines the authority of the commander. This has happened on naval ships and it has happened in the all the wars.

But if the issue is the legal justification or irrational behavior on the part of Young, why hasn't SGC done anything about it? Why hasn't Camile reported Young and even Rush for irrational behavior? If Young never gets reprimanded or is relieved of duty then it would seem that the final authority, the SCG, is siding with Young and his decisions.

Let me reiterate that the failed mutiny was extremely severe. The mutineers didn't just sit down and protest, or some other non-violent means of showing their dissatisfaction of Colonel Young. They instead took extreme steps and:
1. Took control of most of the vital systems of the ship.
2. They cut off the military from basic necessities (food, water, oxygen).
3. Used blackmail to provide the basic human rights they took away in the first place, to meet their demands.

By doing so they had the intent to kill the military personnel they believed they had trapped. If it had not been for Young's brilliant plan to foil the mutiny, his people would be dead right now.
 
I'm really liking SGU, but it still pales in comparison to SGA and SG1.
 
Superfreak, lets move on to discuss other aspects of this show. After all, you are a Gramaton Cleric and can put aside your emotions and see things logically. Unless you aren't taking your medication. hahaha Equilibrium is one of my favorite movies.

I only watched parts of the first season of SGA, it just never did anything for me. SGU has a very different tone than SGA and SG1. Those shows had light moments to them and the people weren't wound up so tight. I also think having the entire show take place mainly inside a ship, with a bland dark color palette, gives it a more serious and dramatic stage. The show loses a bit of the element of dramatic intensity, between the individuals, when they are out in the open air of an alien world.
 
The reason why the death sentence isn't carried out is because of a backlog of cases. There just isn't enough time in the day for all the cases to be heard before the judges. Your example does not apply here because in a military situation the commanding officer can be judge, jury, and executioner.

and even so, said judge, jury and executioner must justify the punishment they have dished out. If I kill someone, who is beating my wife, should I be excecuted? Hell no, but by your reasoning: I killed someone, I should be excecuted, because that's the punishement perscribed by the law (without any thought given to situational analysis).

This is not the way the world, or the law works. There are varying degrees of crime, and likewise, there are varying degrees of punishment, defined by the law.

Young can't execute Wray for what is a peaceful attempt at mutiny, that caused no death, or put the ship at risk (the risk difference is irrelevant in this situation, as both Wray and Young have no way of reducing the risk of being attacked and surviving on Destiny, that lucky power resides with Rush). He may have 'legal authority' to execute her, but not 'legal justification'... and one can be sure, had he excecuted Wray, his civilian counterpart, he'd be replaced pretty damn fast by being perma stoned... but the stones have been retired, and no reports home have been made since Rush has been rescued (didn't watch last night, so that may have changed)


but as you say, lets move on, because your not understanding my perspective on absolutism, and it's idiocy. It's like the difference between rights and liberties. No one has a right to free speech, in any country... you have liberties of free speech. Where rights are absolute, and liberties can be limited.




again: I say that this is eerily familiar to the attempt they tried to make at civilian/military command conflict in Atlantis... and so far, this show actually feels like a second attempt at what they were trying to achieve with Atlantis. They failed utterly with SGA, and wasted a whole season on the concept... and I'm already bored of it on SGU.



as far as the show is concerned... I'd really like Destiny to catch up with the Gate factory ships. I think that will be one of the more interesting aspects of the mythos whenever they decide to deliver it.
 
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Either way the point is moot because by the rationale used some by some of the posters here, Young had every right of shooting TJ and Scott in the last episode for their attempt at mutiny.

Young: Come back on the ship.
Scott: Me and TJ want to stay sir.
Young: Put Greer on the line. Greer, shoot them traitors!

:p
 
I seem to have missed or forgotten about the Gate seeding ships and even Destiny.

If Destiny has been traveling for millions of years, how long have the gate seeding ships been traveling?

How old are the Ancients then? If the ships they sent out are traveling faster than light and for millions of years.

I really loved the idea of an alien race as great as the Ancients creating that solar system. I hope there is a way to revisit that mystery again. I think there will be given that beam of light, which looks like a signal of some sorts.

What the heck was in that box on Destiny? I couldn't make out what it was because it was so dark.

And wow, Lt. Johansen can change her mind on a dime. Scott must have felt like such a dope because I think he decided to stay on the planet because of her and she goes and changes her mind in a second when Young asks her to come with him. lol

I think everything worked well in this episode. I liked the tension from the previous episode but overall everybody worked well together. Oh yeah, that one guy who believed God put them on the planet was really creepy for some reason. For a minute I thought he was possessed by the aliens or something.
 
RIGHT! I was POSITIVE that guy would be an alien or possessed or smth because I don't remember him from before. The way he kept going on and on about how the aliens will provide for them. I was sure he just wanted them to stick around for another reason.
 
Yay! I'm gald somebody else felt the same about that guy. Especially how we first meet him sitting in the woods and Scott happens upon him.

It would have been cool if people are talking about that guy in the mess hall and the people that stayed on the ship look at them and say, "Who are you talking about? We don't have anybody by that name on the ship."
 
I didn't really find that guy creepy at all he just had faith.With good reason those aliens that created that solar system were near gods and provided whatever life that develops on that planet everything they need to survive. He was right in that regard but I can understand their mistrust of aliens who can create a whole solar system with a viable planet in it.
 
And wow, Lt. Johansen can change her mind on a dime. Scott must have felt like such a dope because I think he decided to stay on the planet because of her and she goes and changes her mind in a second when Young asks her to come with him. lol

Oh come on she didnt just change her mind, she was forced into coming back to the ship otherwise the people who still wanted to stay would have all been forced back as well.
 
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