Stargate SG-1/Atlantis/Universe

[C. Lee]

In my country he'd slap me on the back and say: "Good luck." Probably give me his gun for good measure. :P

Seriously though, that's a pretty weak comparison. IMO.

Not sure if you are kidding or not.

Here in the United States....they take threats to the president's life seriously. If you make a flat out statement that you plan on killing the President, there will be an official investigation started with the person most likely being taken into custody immediately to determine if he is an immediate threat, and most likely released in a few days. That is normal procedure during regular non emergency times.

Now....take the situation that the SU series is in. The military is in command of a small group of people in an extremely dangerous situation. It is under "martial law" during a "war time" like setting. They have a member of the group that has been exposed as self serving, manipulative, giving false information to his superiors, withholding information from his superiors, ignoring orders, talking up resistance to the authority among his fellow group, and now has been found to have actually tried to frame the commaning officer for murder and proclaims that he will continue to act this way.....he is a threat to everyone on board the ship...and must be removed from the opportunity to fulfill the threats he has made.

 

[LadyVader]

Slightly kidding. The military did kill Ceausescu and there was this communist joke during his regime.

You see, when the communists were around, there were massive queues forming outside shops to get food. And one thay a guy standing in queue since forever says: "That's it, I'm tired of this waiting crap, I'm going to kill the president". So he leaves and comes back the next day: "So, did you kill him?" the people asked.
"There was a queue there too..."

Now, back to what you said, I am unfamiliar with how martial law works, but does that mean that Rush not being a military officer has superiors all of a sudden? Further more, he didn't do half the things you listed. He has never lied or ignored direct orders, didn't talk up a resistance to Young with other people although he did undermine his authority. He is not a threat to everybody on the ship, just a threat to Young specifically. He has never acted in any way that would hurt anybody else on the ship.

Furthermore, when Young stepped down from command temporarily he didn't hand command over to another military figure, he gave it to Camille Wray. So if Young proves to be truely unfit to command, which in the end turns out HE IS, because he abandoned a valuable member of the group on another planet, then Camille Wray, a civil servant, would be in charge of the expedition.

Young was put on trial for being accused of doing something similar in the begining of the episode and Spencer was way more dangerous to the expedition, since he actually did all the things you mentioned. He stole food, lashed out on the others, tried to get on board that rescue ship when the Destiny was thought to explode (thereby disobeying a direct order, and he WAS a military officer).

 

[GhostPoet]

Personally, I think the way he handled Rush wasn't very smart. He should have kept Rush on the ship, but loosened the leash a little more. Someone wants to jump in the chair? Fine. Let them. Let Rush do what he has to to learn more about the ship. Keep him under watch, but let him have a little more freedom then he has had. Yes, he makes morally iffy decisions...but the times call for that.

Basically...use Rush to their advantage. Rush liked to manipulate situations...but they should have turned that around and manipulated him to a degree...let him do what he wants...but only so far.

 

[LadyVader]

Yeah, but Young isn't a smart person. He's a gritty realistic character, flawed both morally and emotionally.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

So... basically, forget the safety of the group as a whole and let Rush do whatever he wants? That's an odd way of 'manipulating' Rush.

 

[LadyVader]

Again, how the heck did he threaten the safety of the group? Is he the one that gave a proven emotionally unstable person like Spencer the gun in the first place? No, that was 100% the military's responsability. And Young KNEW that Spencer was unstable. He stole the food, tried to get on board the rescue ship and Young even told him he's sick of his whiney ass and proceeded to ram his face in the side of the ship. But thinking to cut his access to weaponry? No, that never came to him.

And yet Rush is the one abandoned on that planet... Sheesh.

 

[GhostPoet]

So... basically, forget the safety of the group as a whole and let Rush do whatever he wants? That's an odd way of 'manipulating' Rush.

Only to an extent. Rush may do things that seem dangerous...but even he doesn't want to see the ship blow up. He also realizes that he needs some of the people if he's going to accomplish anything, so he won't do anything so crazy as to lose the crew.

Keep him on a leash still, but just loosened enough to allow him to do a bit more. He may even be a bit more forthright about the goings on with what he's doing if he thinks the others are on "his side" with the extra freedom he is given.


or maybe i'm just an extremist

 

[SsM]

Brad Wright has stated in interviews that while everyone thinks Rush is crazy, there is always a good reason for everything he does. :/

 

[C. Lee]

Now, back to what you said, I am unfamiliar with how martial law works, but does that mean that Rush not being a military officer has superiors all of a sudden? Further more, he didn't do half the things you listed. He has never lied or ignored direct orders, didn't talk up a resistance to Young with other people although he did undermine his authority. He is not a threat to everybody on the ship, just a threat to Young specifically. He has never acted in any way that would hurt anybody else on the ship.

Furthermore, when Young stepped down from command temporarily he didn't hand command over to another military figure, he gave it to Camille Wray. So if Young proves to be truely unfit to command, which in the end turns out HE IS, because he abandoned a valuable member of the group on another planet, then Camille Wray, a civil servant, would be in charge of the expedition.

Young was put on trial for being accused of doing something similar in the begining of the episode and Spencer was way more dangerous to the expedition, since he actually did all the things you mentioned. He stole food, lashed out on the others, tried to get on board that rescue ship when the Destiny was thought to explode (thereby disobeying a direct order, and he WAS a military officer).

I'm not planning on rewatching all the episodes to get specifics to back up or refute all my original points....but the basic complaint can't be argued....Rush tried to frame Young for murder....in normal conditions that warrants decades in jail....in a martial law situation, being stranded and not executed means he was lucky.

 

[RetroNaz]

It's good to see some discussion on a topic as simple is this: who is right? who is wrong?

I'm hoping the show does a lot more of these...

 

[Superfreak]

So... basically, forget the safety of the group as a whole and let Rush do whatever he wants? That's an odd way of 'manipulating' Rush.

imo, that's already been forgotten, with Rush's exile. The people on the ship are screwed without Rush, stones or no stones. And that's because no one else knows diddly squat about the ship.

 

[Superfreak]

I'm not planning on rewatching all the episodes to get specifics to back up or refute all my original points....but the basic complaint can't be argued....Rush tried to frame Young for murder....in normal conditions that warrants decades in jail....in a martial law situation, being stranded and not executed means he was lucky.

I'm no lawyer, but a life sentence (for actually doing something really bad) is 25 years. Framing someone for murder (a murder that wasn't actually committed), is not gonna get you decades in prison. Even a decade would be extremely unlucky/unlikely.

That being said, Young is a *****e. Sure, Rush manipulated the situation to allow someone to volunteer to sit in the chair... volunteer being the most important word in that statement. Rush is Young's responsibility, subsequently Wray's. As in, they are supposed to be looking out for him too. (question: if Young was asleep in his quarters, how did Rush get in there to hide the gun?)

stranding someone alone in a far part of the universe is worse than a death sentence. This punishment hardly fits the crime. Moreover, in my judgement, as I said before, Young has doomed the whole crew of the Destiny. Without Rush, there really is no one apparent among the cast who is as well versed in the ancient science/culture as he is. In other words, in order to save the body, Young cut out the brain. One cannot function without the other.

 

[RetroNaz]

I'm no lawyer, but a life sentence (for actually doing something really bad) is 25 years. Framing someone for murder (a murder that wasn't actually committed), is not gonna get you decades in prison. Even a decade would be extremely unlucky/unlikely.

That being said, Young is a *****e. Sure, Rush manipulated the situation to allow someone to volunteer to sit in the chair... volunteer being the most important word in that statement. Rush is Young's responsibility, subsequently Wray's. As in, they are supposed to be looking out for him too. (question: if Young was asleep in his quarters, how did Rush get in there to hide the gun?)

stranding someone alone in a far part of the universe is worse than a death sentence. This punishment hardly fits the crime. Moreover, in my judgement, as I said before, Young has doomed the whole crew of the Destiny. Without Rush, there really is no one apparent among the cast who is as well versed in the ancient science/culture as he is. In other words, in order to save the body, Young cut out the brain. One cannot function without the other.

I think the gun would have been moved when Young first brought up the investigation to all the crew and Rush was no where to be found but "working".

 

[Dark Helmet]

I say let there be a couple of red shirts on the ship trying to do something on Youngs orders that require to understand Ancient & something happens & have a few of the unknown crew die on Young's orders because they did know understand Ancient & then slowly have Young realize that they needed Rush

 

[LadyVader]

I'm not planning on rewatching all the episodes to get specifics to back up or refute all my original points....but the basic complaint can't be argued....Rush tried to frame Young for murder....in normal conditions that warrants decades in jail....in a martial law situation, being stranded and not executed means he was lucky.

Again, I don't know how martial law works in real life, but this is the Stargate Universe. And we know that something like this would never have happened on a show like SG1 or SGA, but even in SGU's established universe, a commander making the decision to execute a member of the group has been established that it's WRONG. Young lost his command because he was just a SUSPECT of murder, and like I said time and time again, Spencer was a valid dangerous element.

In the "Light" episode he instigated the crowd to mutiny and all that happened was that he got a riffle butt to the head. After the crisis passed, nobody said anything to him. If Spencer, a proven dangerous element, gets a clean break several times (doesn't even lose his right to carry a weapon), why is Rush exiled on a deserted planet?

 

[GL1]

Rush was marooned (NOT killed) primarily because he messed with the wrong guy. Yeah, Rush was unrepentant and dedicated to causing trouble (as opposed to being unstable, or unpredictable) and Rush was certainly responsible for that man's coma, at least imho, but the clincher is that he went after Young, a man who is NOT stable or objective, merely professional and responsible. Rush thought he could predict Young's actions, or he wouldn't have done it, Rush didn't account for the extreme stress Young has been under, or how deeply responsible for everything Young feels.

Rush felt no danger when those others left, even though he knew what he did, and he knew he only had an hour to get back to the ship, and he was alone with the man he framed.

And then, when Young was willing to let it go, Rush would not. That is why Rush got left. It wasn't law, he just pressed the wrong button and relied on his invaluability. He expected everyone to be as coldly logical as he is, and they most certainly are not.

Now Eli's the head scientist. Lol. Honestly, the ship is no worse off than if Scott had to take over for Young.

Greer's still my favorite. It's evil to use your scary-blackmanness for personal gain though. That was dirty. Ming Na's character wasn't ready for that.

 

[C. Lee]

I'm no lawyer, but a life sentence (for actually doing something really bad) is 25 years. Framing someone for murder (a murder that wasn't actually committed), is not gonna get you decades in prison. Even a decade would be extremely unlucky/unlikely.

There are many different rules for sentencing, not only in the U.S. but around the globe....one thing I found said "Life sentencing for murder in the United States has a mean of 349 months (29 years one month) and a median of 480 months (40 years)".... another said ""Murder one", as the term was popularized by novels and television, carried a penalty of death, or life in prison, while the penalty for "murder two" was generally around 80 years in prison."....so there is a quite a difference in the sentencing of someone for that crime depending on how the crime was committed and so on. With that being shown....I believe that the framing of someone for murder could get you a sentance of 10 to 20 years....which would make it "decades".

That being said, Young is a *****e. Sure, Rush manipulated the situation to allow someone to volunteer to sit in the chair... volunteer being the most important word in that statement. Rush is Young's responsibility, subsequently Wray's. As in, they are supposed to be looking out for him too. (question: if Young was asleep in his quarters, how did Rush get in there to hide the gun?)

A *****e that tried to frame the commanding officer of murder. Rush could have very easily hid the gun in Young's room when Young was talking to everyone about the search for the gun...because it was shown that Rush was not there (he said he had better things to do with his time).

stranding someone alone in a far part of the universe is worse than a death sentence.

I would feel bad if it was done to an innocent person...but Rush admitted that he tried to frame Young for murder, and said he would continue to screw with him if allowed.

This punishment hardly fits the crime. Moreover, in my judgement, as I said before, Young has doomed the whole crew of the Destiny. Without Rush, there really is no one apparent among the cast who is as well versed in the ancient science/culture as he is. In other words, in order to save the body, Young cut out the brain. One cannot function without the other.

I believe Eli has helped with the technology as much if not more so than Rush. Rush has kept info from people, has misdirected them, lied to them.....depending on someone like that can get you killed.

 

[C. Lee]

Again, I don't know how martial law works in real life, but this is the Stargate Universe.

The Stargate Universe follows military law....and in it...during Martial Law, the highest ranking officer is given control....and summary executions can be ordered (this rarely has happened in the United States....but has occured around the world).

And we know that something like this would never have happened on a show like SG1 or SGA,

Not having seen all episodes of either previous series...I don't know if any episode dealt with someone framing the leader for murder...so can't say if it would or wouldn't have happened.

but even in SGU's established universe, a commander making the decision to execute a member of the group has been established that it's WRONG. Young lost his command because he was just a SUSPECT of murder, and like I said time and time again, Spencer was a valid dangerous element.

Young didn't LOSE command....he voluntarily stepped down because he was implicated in the crime. He did not have to do this...he wasn't forced to do it...he voluntarily did it. He could have stayed in charge.

In the "Light" episode he instigated the crowd to mutiny and all that happened was that he got a riffle butt to the head. After the crisis passed, nobody said anything to him. If Spencer, a proven dangerous element, gets a clean break several times (doesn't even lose his right to carry a weapon), why is Rush exiled on a deserted planet?

The LIGHT episode took place only days after they arrived on the ship....they were faced with the situation that they would most likely all be killed within a day or so...Spencer went off and was hit upside the head to calm him down. It was a tense situation that many people were "losing it" over. Many times in the military, if someone does something wrong, he is given punishment of extra duty or hard duty. Spencer was knocked out and left to lie there (with the expectation that they all would be dead within hours)....we were never told if there was further punishment given to him for this after they all didn't die, but it was alluded to in this episode when he didn't show up for KP duty (KP is often given as punishment...we don't know if other punishment duties were given to him). But it comes back to one simple fact...while Spencer committed several offences....he did not try to frame his commanding officer for murder....Rush did.

 

[LadyVader]

Well let's agree to disagree then. You say that it doesn't matter how valuable you are, or that other people did worse things than you to hurt the group's survival chances, or that you are a human being and still have rights. If you mess with the commander, you deserve to DIE.

Ok, I just don't agree with that. And since Young lied about what he did and feels the need to cover it up, then I have a feeling somewhere down the line, other characters won't agree with him either.

 

[wiegeabo]

In emergency conditions such as Destiny, a field commander has the authority suspend due process if he believe the threat or crime is severe enough, and can even order and carry out summary executions. What Rush did was at the very least mutiny, which is a crime punishable by death in the military. Young was well within his rights to leave Rush behind.

Now, once he gets back to Earth, he can still be prosecuted. And if they determine his actions weren't warranted, and he abused his authority, he will be punished. And if not, he'll be absolved of any crime (although it's a good bet that the Air Force would strongly 'suggest' he take early retirement and an honorable discharge so they don't have to deal with him anymore).

 

[carrrnuttt]

Young doesn't have the luxury of time nor supplies to try and keep Rush around (as in lock him up), whilst he tries to figure out Rush's endgame. The fact that Rush knows about the ship makes him even more dangerous as a prisoner, as no room in the ship is likely to contain him.

Beyond that, the bottomline is, if the commanding officer of an already shaky expedition, or one of his own fellow scientists means nothing more than an annoyance in the way of Rush's goals [whatever those may be], then Young has no reason to believe that Rush wouldn't sacrifice anyone else on the ship just as quickly, maybe except for Eli. Especially when Rush is willing to admit that he won't stop trying to do whatever he's trying to do...which he won't tell anyone.

LadyVader: What's with this, "mess with the commander" bull-crap? I take it you have never been in the military, nor in a pressure situation [like combat] such as the SGU personnel are in. I have been in both. You have NO idea how important a strong, commanding presence is in that situation. What I mean by that, by "messing with the commander," you ARE messing with the rest of the crew as well. Not to mention Rush HAS messed with everyone else in an uncountable number of ways...not just "the commander." Not the least of which is, the fact that he's the reason they're all even stranded where they are.

 

[Superfreak]

There are many different rules for sentencing, not only in the U.S. but around the globe....one thing I found said "Life sentencing for murder in the United States has a mean of 349 months (29 years one month) and a median of 480 months (40 years)".... another said ""Murder one", as the term was popularized by novels and television, carried a penalty of death, or life in prison, while the penalty for "murder two" was generally around 80 years in prison."....so there is a quite a difference in the sentencing of someone for that crime depending on how the crime was committed and so on. With that being shown....I believe that the framing of someone for murder could get you a sentance of 10 to 20 years....which would make it "decades".

A *****e that tried to frame the commanding officer of murder. Rush could have very easily hid the gun in Young's room when Young was talking to everyone about the search for the gun...because it was shown that Rush was not there (he said he had better things to do with his time).


I would feel bad if it was done to an innocent person...but Rush admitted that he tried to frame Young for murder, and said he would continue to screw with him if allowed.


I believe Eli has helped with the technology as much if not more so than Rush. Rush has kept info from people, has misdirected them, lied to them.....depending on someone like that can get you killed.

so I was off by a couple of years: you get the point, that is why criminals sometimes get multiple life sentences. My point being, that life sentences are not actual life sentences, they are finite periods of time that mess up a life. Framing someone for a murder that did not happen is not gonna get anybody 10 years in prison. Framing someone for an actual murder, might get you 10 years, as one is misdirecting authorities away from the actual criminal(not an issue in this case). This was more of a nuissance than an indictable crime.

Eli doesn't know squat, he may be gifted, but he is not schooled. And no 'The Last Starfighter' video game is going to make him ready for that. If it suddenly comes to 'Eli to the rescue' within this, or the next 2 seasons, I'm not going to be impressed, unless there is some underlying long run narrative that shows him learning about everything SG.

moreover, lets say Young exiled Rush before Mr. Wonderful sat in the chair... without Rush, they would have had to have someone sit in the chair, since Young gulaged the capable scientist aboard.

Rush may not be innocent, but the punishment hardly fits the crime. Young is psycho. Infact, I'm leaning towards that direction more and more. He's just blowing off the steam from his last violent outburst.

 

[LadyVader]

Young doesn't have the luxury of time nor supplies to try and keep Rush around (as in lock him up), whilst he tries to figure out Rush's endgame. The fact that Rush knows about the ship makes him even more dangerous as a prisoner, as no room in the ship is likely to contain him.

Beyond that, the bottomline is, if the commanding officer of an already shaky expedition, or one of his own fellow scientists means nothing more than an annoyance in the way of Rush's goals [whatever those may be], then Young has no reason to believe that Rush wouldn't sacrifice anyone else on the ship just as quickly, maybe except for Eli. Especially when Rush is willing to admit that he won't stop trying to do whatever he's trying to do...which he won't tell anyone.

LadyVader: What's with this, "mess with the commander" bull-crap? I take it you have never been in the military, nor in a pressure situation [like combat] such as the SGU personnel are in. I have been in both. You have NO idea how important a strong, commanding presence is in that situation. What I mean by that, by "messing with the commander," you ARE messing with the rest of the crew as well. Not to mention Rush HAS messed with everyone else in an uncountable number of ways...not just "the commander." Not the least of which is, the fact that he's the reason they're all even stranded where they are.

What is this I keep hearing about "combat situation". They're not fighting a war. What they are is stranded on a space ship. Yes you may need the military fire power to KEEP the people calm, but in order to survive on a FREAKING space ship, military regulations, the chain of command and weaponry are not gonna do diddly squat for you if you don't know how to operate the technology. And they just marooned the one guy who knew how to do that better than anybody, thereby lowering everybody's chances to survive.

And once again I feel the need to point out that Spencer SHOULDN'T have had that gun! He shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near a gun. Rush took advantage of a situation created by a military blunder. Sure, that doesn't excuse what he did but I'm just saying. If Young was such a great leader, he would've restricted Spencer's access to weapons and defused the situation before it happened.

 

[Superfreak]

What is this I keep hearing about "combat situation". They're not fighting a war. What they are is stranded on a space ship. Yes you may need the military fire power to KEEP the people calm, but in order to survive on a FREAKING space ship, military regulations, the chain of command and weaponry are not gonna do diddly squat for you if you don't know how to operate the technology. And they just marooned the one guy who knew how to do that better than anybody, thereby lowering everybody's chances to survive.

And once again I feel the need to point out that Spencer SHOULDN'T have had that gun! He shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near a gun. Rush took advantage of a situation created by a military blunder. Sure, that doesn't excuse what he did but I'm just saying. If Young was such a great leader, he would've restricted Spencer's access to weapons and defused the situation before it happened.

agreed and seconded

 

[RetroNaz]

I think it's safe and simple enough to say that both Young and Rush were both wrong with how they handled each individual situation that brought them to the end of the last episode.

But I kind of like that about this show. We don't have any black or white characters. There is no main "bad guy" so to speak of that the show can use as it's primary villain.

It's just the people, and the conflict that happens amongst people when a situation as bad as being stranded so far away from home comes into play.