World State your unpopular Spider-Man related opinion

[Doctor Octopus]

Understandable. However, for me at least, the story in TSSM gave purpose to their creations rather than being an accidental occurrence (Sandman). Unlike what we're seeing in the ASM film series, Oscorp isn't this breeding ground for evil creations. It's just Norman manipulating the system and his desire for power. He's creating both the villains and the prisons to hold the villains. "You're getting paid coming and going"--Hammerhead to Norman. He also creates a fake Rhino spec so he can get large amounts of money from that auction. Obviously he's using Oscorp as the front for the tech to make the villains but that's where it ends. IMO, this gives more connection for the story and it all ties together so well. The villains had a purpose to keep Spider-Man 'busy'--and it was only amplified because both Marko and O'hirn were consistently webbed up by Spidey prior to their conversion.

But that is not better origin just to have Norman make himself a couple of handy distraction villains to be puppets for him. I prefer Sandman and Rhino as accidental creations who come into their own as villains instead of being lab specimens.

Scorpion is best villain who was purposely created because it was done by Jonah to kill Spider-Man and then it backfires and it creates vendetta between Jonah and Scorpion, and Gargan gets tragic element where he is trapped in his Scorpion suit.

There is no good pay offs in story like that for Rhino and Sandman in SSM cartoon.

I think Weisman summed this up really well, "what do we know about Herman Schultz?" He's just a bank robber.

Without a doubt, the Spectacular version of Shocker is the single most out-there/original take on any of the villains; mostly, the show specializes not in strict originality, but in distillation and fine-tuning all the well-known villains of Spidey's rogues gallery. I think Weisman pretty much hit the nail on the head when he realized that the only appeal to Shocker was the suit itself, and never the man inside it, thereby allowing him the ability to make any character he wanted into Shocker. Using the Enforcers (and Montana, specifically) was a smart move because it gives Shocker a new style and a totally different mentality than we're used to seeing from him.

Weissman has his priorities wrong because Montana is just a thief too. Most of Spider-Man's villains are thieves. Changing it from Herman to one of the Enforcers didn't make Shocker a better character, it just gave him a funny accent lol. He also was given his Shocker suit to him by the Big Man. He did not make his suit and weapons himself.

Herman Schultz did. Herman was a career criminal who built a machine in prison that created vibrations that could be strong enough to bring down a wall or shake a vault open. After using the machine to escape, he miniaturized the device to hand held size and made gauntlets out of them. He is more impressive character to me than Montana just being given a Shocker suit.

 

[spider-neil]

But that is not better origin just to have Norman make himself a couple of handy distraction villains to be puppets for him. I prefer Sandman and Rhino as accidental creations who come into their own as villains instead of being lab specimens.

Scorpion is best villain who was purposely created because it was done by Jonah to kill Spider-Man and then it backfires and it creates vendetta between Jonah and Scorpion, and Gargan gets tragic element where he is trapped in his Scorpion suit.

There is no good pay offs in story like that for Rhino and Sandman in SSM cartoon.


I


Weissman has his priorities wrong because Montana is just a thief too. Most of Spider-Man's villains are thieves. Changing it from Herman to one of the Enforcers didn't make Shocker a better character, it just gave him a funny accent lol. He also was given his Shocker suit to him by the Big Man. He did not make his suit and weapons himself.

Herman Schultz did. Herman was a career criminal who built a machine in prison that created vibrations that could be strong enough to bring down a wall or shake a vault open. After using the machine to escape, he miniaturized the device to hand held size and made gauntlets out of them. He is more impressive character to me than Montana just being given a Shocker suit.

It wasn't about 'better' it was about being expedient. Montana was already developed so it was a simple matter of giving him the Shocker costume. Using the original Shocker would have meant another character to develop.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Here's one unpopular opinion, I still think Spider-Man should die, and all traces of him should be removed from Marvel's continuity.

Spider-Man's single best story arc is Kraven's Last Hunt and you don't get much darker than that. The Death of Jean DeWolff isn't far behind in Spider-Man lore. Spider-Man is so kiddy friendly these days I find myself buying the title less and less. I just read Batgirl (Batgirl for pete's sakes!!) and it was miles better than the current incarnation of Spider-Man. Is Batgirl 'supposed' to be a dark character?

He has sex with a different girl every few issues, that's not really kiddie friendly.

The Spot, Kingpin, Punisher and Mysterio were better in Daredevil then they were in Spider-Man.

Juggernaut was better in Spider-Man then he was in X-Men.

I disagree about Mysterio, he's one of my favorite Spider-Man villains because of what he can do.
And Juggernaut is an X-Men villain.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

It's funny no one decided to do more with him, until Bendis decided to do something with him in that one issue of Ultimate, having him catching Spider-Man and hanging him upside down, unmasked.

I'm not sure how many other people share this opinion, but I hated how Peter was constantly being unmasked in the USM comics.

But that is not better origin just to have Norman make himself a couple of handy distraction villains to be puppets for him. I prefer Sandman and Rhino as accidental creations who come into their own as villains instead of being lab specimens.

Norman was creating them as paid for by The Big Man aka Tombstone. And both Marko and O'hirn, imo, came into the roles as villains just as good as though they were accidents. Rhino was far more interesting a character here than he was in his early days in the comics. And I very much like how they made Doc Ock the one to develop the experiments--it really helped to show off his brilliance along with the invention of his arms.

Scorpion is best villain who was purposely created because it was done by Jonah to kill Spider-Man and then it backfires and it creates vendetta between Jonah and Scorpion, and Gargan gets tragic element where he is trapped in his Scorpion suit.

Sandman and Rhino were both created for the same type of purpose. Keep Spider-Man busy or get rid of him so Tombstone's criminal empire could continue to be profitable. IMO, that's a great reason and it fit the story. They did start to show the good side of Sandman and his turn towards being one of the 'good guys.' His redemption would have been a nice payoff.........

There is no good pay offs in story like that for Rhino and Sandman in SSM cartoon.

Sadly, we'll never know. The show was cut short of the proposed 65 episodes. I know that Scorpion was planned for the 3rd season--I would have loved to see that...so depressing. There may have been that payoff for Sandman or even one for Rhino, who knows. At least they were headed in that direction for Sandy.

Weissman has his priorities wrong because Montana is just a thief too. Most of Spider-Man's villains are thieves. Changing it from Herman to one of the Enforcers didn't make Shocker a better character, it just gave him a funny accent lol. He also was given his Shocker suit to him by the Big Man. He did not make his suit and weapons himself.

Herman Schultz did. Herman was a career criminal who built a machine in prison that created vibrations that could be strong enough to bring down a wall or shake a vault open. After using the machine to escape, he miniaturized the device to hand held size and made gauntlets out of them. He is more impressive character to me than Montana just being given a Shocker suit.

Montana was whatever he was needed to be, a thief, a hitman, an enforcer for the Big Man, he had multiple assets. But like I said, the only appeal to Shocker is the suit and not the man within the suit. Essentially they could have made anyone into the Shocker and it could have worked but making Montana into Shocker was the best choice. It was an interesting take on the villain.

The thing I really like about Montana is that even though he is this criminal, he has certain standards about the way he conducts himself. While most of the villains usually shift from their original goals to a vendetta against Spider-Man, he is still concerned largely with making a living and protecting his reputation. Montana behaves in a more professional manner than the majority of his peers or the other villains. He takes his job very seriously. His quote to Spidey was great, "If a man's a good man, he honors his responsibilities, and you're one of mine." That's what I was referring to with the change in mentality. And I could care less if he made the gauntlets or not, it doesn't have any affect on the story nor his personality.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'm not sure how many other people share this opinion, but I hated how Peter was constantly being unmasked in the USM comics.

This is why I thought "Maybe Bendis dislikes secret identities."

 

[OriginalMiles]

You know what I liked about the Ultimate Universe? The fact that whenever Peter was unmasked, they were like "who the heck is this guy?".

 

[spider-neil]

Here's one unpopular opinion, I still think Spider-Man should die, and all traces of him should be removed from Marvel's continuity.
He has sex with a different girl every few issues, that's not really kiddie friendly.

So sleeping around makes Spider-Man a 'mature' comic?
To be fair Spidey has to cater to kids and adults. Maybe they should do a 'kiddy' Spider-Man spin off and make the main title aimed more at adults.

I disagree about Mysterio, he's one of my favorite Spider-Man villains because of what he can do.
And Juggernaut is an X-Men villain.

My point is Mysterio is a Spider-Man character but Mysterio in Daredevil 'Guardian Devil' is better than he ever was in the Spider-Man title.

Juggernaut is an X-Men character but 'Juggernaut in Spider-Man 'Nothing Can Stop Juggernaut' is better than he ever was in the X-Men title.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Norman was creating them as paid for by The Big Man aka Tombstone. And both Marko and O'hirn, imo, came into the roles as villains just as good as though they were accidents. Rhino was far more interesting a character here than he was in his early days in the comics. And I very much like how they made Doc Ock the one to develop the experiments--it really helped to show off his brilliance along with the invention of his arms.

What difference does it make if someone paid Norman to do it? It still makes them lab specimen villains. They did not come into their own as villains, they working for a higher power.

They have just been lab made lackeys and the comic book versions had better origins than that,

Sandman and Rhino were both created for the same type of purpose. Keep Spider-Man busy or get rid of him so Tombstone's criminal empire could continue to be profitable. IMO, that's a great reason and it fit the story. They did start to show the good side of Sandman and his turn towards being one of the 'good guys.' His redemption would have been a nice payoff.........

Sandman and Rhino were created for distractions for Spider-Man. Jonah made Scorpion to kill him. And it had more interesting consequences. Two seasons and they never did anything like that with Sandman and Rhino.

Maybe they might have in future seasons, maybe they wouldn't. Don't know. Can only judge on what we got not what might have been.

Montana was whatever he was needed to be, a thief, a hitman, an enforcer for the Big Man, he had multiple assets. But like I said, the only appeal to Shocker is the suit and not the man within the suit. Essentially they could have made anyone into the Shocker and it could have worked but making Montana into Shocker was the best choice. It was an interesting take on the villain.

Herman Schultz as Shocker has been thief, hit man and enforcer for bigger villains too. There is nothing Montana Shocker was that they couldn't have done with Herman.

It was pointless weaker change of character.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

So sleeping around makes Spider-Man a 'mature' comic?
To be fair Spidey has to cater to kids and adults. Maybe they should do a 'kiddy' Spider-Man spin off and make the main title aimed more at adults.

Not that it makes it more mature, but it makes it less kid friendly.

You know what I liked about the Ultimate Universe? The fact that whenever Peter was unmasked, they were like "who the heck is this guy?".

LOL, true.
Like, were they expecting to see the butler?

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Rhino was a lab made lackey and they were trying to go through a different route with sandman since he was a punk from the beginning and as a result of his sand powers it just placed him at the wrong place at the wrong time. he can't even eat nor drink. all he eats are raw silicates. heck, it was even worth it almost dying from incineration.

Why are you telling me things I already know. How does any of that change the point I am making?

Rhino's just the same but instead of being a Russian immigrant for payment he is just some crook who had a price to pay.

Then that is not the same Rhino. Rhino doesn't have a price to pay.

this isn't a comparsion to what Jonah did. tombstone is a mob boss and norman obviously doesn't care. hell, even when flint "died" he felt no remorse. he even turned the scientist he abused into a megomaniacal criminal scientist and ruin the lives of his son and mark allen. he even tried to sacrifice his entire company for this and like the look on his face he just does not care.

It is a comparison to what Jonah did because it's a comparison of how a lab made villain like Scorpion worked well because it was written well and had exciting consequence and repercussions, where the Sandman and Rhino lab made villains were just paid goons and had nothing interesting come from that.

rhino and sandman are both criminals being hired as test subjects/muscle to either kill or distract spiderman. they didn't start out as wimps like gargan.

I know. That is why Gargan is more interesting. He started as a lower wimp and became something much more. Rhino and Sandman were still just meathead lackeys except they got powers in SSM cartoon. That's not interesting.

Montana knows how to be a leader and knows how to handle the suit. he's even the most calm, patient, and most handling in the series. he even had a greater time beating spiderman. while herman is smart he's somewhat of a punk while Montana knows what he's doing. to put it simple, Montana was the most mature of he users

Herman Schultz knows how to be a leader and he knows how to handle the suit because he made it, while Montana was just given his. Montana was always a lackey to someone in SSM cartoon where Herman was his own man and often worked for himself, and he got plenty of pleasure beating on Spider-Man.

There is nothing about Montana as Shocker that is better than Herman. But there is things about Herman that are better than Montana Shocker.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Spider-Man should have NEVER became an Avenger... he's a LONER...

I can accept him as a reserve Avenger, having a few adventures with them.
Beside that I agree, it's why I strongly oppose seeing him in any Avengers movie.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

I can accept him as a reserve Avenger, having a few adventures with them.
Beside that I agree, it's why I strongly oppose seeing him in any Avengers movie.

totally agree with you, but in fantasizing about it, it sure would be a hell of a great visual to see it, though...

 

[UltimateWebhead]

This is why I thought "Maybe Bendis dislikes secret identities."

What difference does it make if someone paid Norman to do it? It still makes them lab specimen villains. They did not come into their own as villains, they working for a higher power.

They have just been lab made lackeys and the comic book versions had better origins than that,

Norman being paid to create them means there was more to the story rather than the two being part of "Oscorps villain making machine." Oscorp isn't the same here as what we've seen in the ASM films thus far. And it means that they weren't "puppets" for Norman but rather for the Big Man. I was using that example to correct your other posts.

Rhino was still a lab creation in the comics. Not much has changed here other than how he ties into the story...which happens to be the huge positive about this series. The story is seamless and how everything comes together reveals the brilliance of the show. Rhino's debut episode, The Invisible Hand, was the most exciting, interesting take on Rhino that I've seen. Lackey, maybe, but they actually made him into an interesting character.

Sandman had some great development and showing his redemption. I don't see how working for someone else somehow prohibits either character from becoming their own villain. Created or not, they both showed development. And they both had nicely developed ties into the story.

Sandman and Rhino were created for distractions for Spider-Man. Jonah made Scorpion to kill him. And it had more interesting consequences. Two seasons and they never did anything like that with Sandman and Rhino.

Distract or take out Spider-Man were the orders from Hammerhead via Tombstone is the same to me as killing him from JJJ. Both had good reasons for their creations.

Herman Schultz as Shocker has been thief, hit man and enforcer for bigger villains too. There is nothing Montana Shocker was that they couldn't have done with Herman.

It was pointless weaker change of character.

Not sure what else to say here but I disagree. Montana made an interesting choice for the character and worked effortlessly as Shocker. His professionalism, dedication to his work, and overall mentality was everything Shocker needed to be a successful villain in this series. And I actually loved his accent mostly because it led to one of the funniest Spidey quips not just in this series but on the whole.

Spidey: "This is your profession?! I was thinking more like, (southern accent) Rodeo Clown!"
Shocker: "Don't you mock me, boy!"
Spidey: "I mock. I'm a Mocker!"

 

[Doctor Octopus]

:
Norman being paid to create them means there was more to the story rather than the two being part of "Oscorps villain making machine." Oscorp isn't the same here as what we've seen in the ASM films thus far. And it means that they weren't "puppets" for Norman but rather for the Big Man. I was using that example to correct your other posts.

Rhino was still a lab creation in the comics. Not much has changed here other than how he ties into the story...which happens to be the huge positive about this series. The story is seamless and how everything comes together reveals the brilliance of the show. Rhino's debut episode, The Invisible Hand, was the most exciting, interesting take on Rhino that I've seen. Lackey, maybe, but they actually made him into an interesting character.

Sandman had some great development and showing his redemption. I don't see how working for someone else somehow prohibits either character from becoming their own villain. Created or not, they both showed development. And they both had nicely developed ties into the story.

But there was not more to the story because all that came from them being made in the lab was what we saw. They were lab rats made to distract Spider-Man. There was no more else to that origin.

Sandman's development and redemption was not a follow on effect of his lab origin. The comic book character had the same thing and he was not a lab rat.

Rhino got nothing from the lab origin either. There was nothing interesting or better about it.

Distract or take out Spider-Man were the orders from Hammerhead via Tombstone is the same to me as killing him from JJJ. Both had good reasons for their creations.

Being lab rat lackeys is not good reasons to give them that origin. They could be self made villains who lend out their services to Tombstone for those reasons instead of I need some villains to get Spider-Man so lets make a couple in the lab. Like instant cake lol.

Not sure what else to say here but I disagree. Montana made an interesting choice for the character and worked effortlessly as Shocker. His professionalism, dedication to his work, and overall mentality was everything Shocker needed to be a successful villain in this series. And I actually loved his accent mostly because it led to one of the funniest Spidey quips not just in this series but on the whole.

Spidey: "This is your profession?! I was thinking more like, (southern accent) Rodeo Clown!"
Shocker: "Don't you mock me, boy!"
Spidey: "I mock. I'm a Mocker!"

But Shocker was just a hired man working for the Big Man both before and after. He's like Rhino and Sandman he was just another villain they made to serve.

Montana did not even make the Shocker suit and weapons. He was a weaker version of the Shocker and the change did not need to be done to Montana instead of Herman.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

But there was not more to the story because all that came from them being made in the lab was what we saw. They were lab rats made to distract Spider-Man. There was no more else to that origin.

Sandman's development and redemption was not a follow on effect of his lab origin. The comic book character had the same thing and he was not a lab rat.

Rhino got nothing from the lab origin either. There was nothing interesting or better about it.

For me at least, the creations in the lab only strengthened the story elements and also added some weight to the already existent characters of Marko and O'Hirn.

I understand your commitment to the source material as I often find myself choosing the 'what came first' option, especially if, imo, it is the better option. But in this case, there are several things I found to be done to greater effect over the source and this is one of them.

No biggie though. We all have our preferences.

Being lab rat lackeys is not good reasons to give them that origin. They could be self made villains who lend out their services to Tombstone for those reasons instead of I need some villains to get Spider-Man so lets make a couple in the lab. Like instant cake lol.

I was just going along with the example of Scorpion who also was a 'lab created' villain. They were all created for the same purpose, just by different people and for a different motivation. I felt Sandman and Rhino's creation had just as strong a reasoning and story point as Scorpion. Scorpion of course had the benefit of actually having resolution to his story whereas both the other two are left open-ended. Still though, they were both quite effective with regard to the story.

And why are you trying to distract me with cake?? That's cheating.

But Shocker was just a hired man working for the Big Man both before and after. He's like Rhino and Sandman he was just another villain they made to serve.

Montana did not even make the Shocker suit and weapons. He was a weaker version of the Shocker and the change did not need to be done to Montana instead of Herman.

I value and respect your commitment to the source material. But again, I found this change to be something I enjoyed more than what I've read in the source. I really enjoyed Montana's personality, his professionalism he took to his work and the ties he had to the story. It all just worked so well, imo.

And on the issue of inventing the shock gauntlets. With Shocker, I see this as less of a negative because it doesn't really have an effect on the character. IMO, it's the suit itself and not who created it. As an example, I own several guns. I certainly didn't manufacture those weapons but that doesn't change who I am nor did it affect my ability to become quite proficient with them. Shocker is very much the same. It'd be quite a different story if we were talking about Ock and for example the series made it so that he didn't invent his arms and they were just given to him. That invention contributes to his character and as a credit to his intelligence.

 

[Spidey's Curse]

Montana as the shocker was one of the things I truly disliked in TSSM.
And the whole thing about him making his gauntlets.... It was a great way to escape from prison, but Schultz should've went right away to trask industries or roxxon and sold those things for millions instead of constantly robbing banks. Spidey villains can be so stupid sometimes..

 

[OriginalMiles]

Spectacular Spider-Man is not only the best adaption of the character, but in some cases... I believe it to be better than the comics.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Spectacular Spider-Man is not only the best adaption of the character, but in some cases... I believe it to be better than the comics.

lol. Was this a dig at me, Miles?

 

[Dragon]

Okay........
Never liked Venom, Carnage or most post Lee villains. The Jackal was okay, but Clone saga 2 got out of hand.
Didn't like Kraven's Last Hunt. Interesting concept, but the characters were mishandled. Spidey's defeat was bull****. His being caught like a deer in the headlights just because Kraven draws a gun. A GUN? Spidey's burial was a waste of time, as if anyone with half a brain thought he was dead.. Have Kraven capture him, and have to watch as Kraven outdoes him. Have the captured Vermin break free and get to one of Kraven's potions, amping his power, and Kraven can't stop him. Spidey breaks free and defeats them both confirming that Kraven will never conquer him. Then at least Kraven's suicide would make sense.
There should never have been a spider clone, Spidey with breasts or any other spider-man other than the Peter Parker established in August of 1962

And finally, Gwen should have lived. Yes, do The Green Goblin's Last Stand, which was excellent, but have Gwen survive. The abysmal TASM
movies did one thing right. They showed what I've always said: that Gwen was the better girlfriend/wife.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I have the complete opposite, but also unpopular opinion. Gwen sucked. She was a flat character who was basically just 'the girlfriend.' They had the potential to do something interesting after Captain Stacy died, but all she does is basically get written out of the comics, come back, and die. Dying was the one interesting thing she ever did.

The Spectacular Spider-Man version, while different from the comics, at least gave her some proper characterization and is ultimately a superior version in every way.

MJ is far and away Peter's best love interest and I HATE that they retconned the marriage.

 

[Dragon]

I have the complete opposite, but also unpopular opinion. Gwen sucked. She was a flat character who was basically just 'the girlfriend.' They had the potential to do something interesting after Captain Stacy died, but all she does is basically get written out of the comics, come back, and die. Dying was the one interesting thing she ever did.

The Spectacular Spider-Man version, while different from the comics, at least gave her some proper characterization and is ultimately a superior version in every way.

MJ is far and away Peter's best love interest and I HATE that they retconned the marriage.

MJ had two valid moments:
"Face it Tiger you just hit the jackpot"
and the last page of Spidey #122.

There's never been another story that needed her.

Gwen brought more to the table. She had her brains, her toughness, her dad's death, and a totally unknown section. What happened to het mother? What was in her Dad's past?
Everything that MJ brought (marriage, pregnancy, infidelity, potential hostage, etc.) Gwen also brought. But Gwen had more.

 

[XSpidercideX]

MJ had two valid moments:
"Face it Tiger you just hit the jackpot"
and the last page of Spidey #122.

There's never been another story that needed her.

Gwen brought more to the table. She had her brains, her toughness, her dad's death, and a totally unknown section. What happened to het mother? What was in her Dad's past?
Everything that MJ brought (marriage, pregnancy, infidelity, potential hostage, etc.) Gwen also brought. But Gwen had more.

MJ didn't cry and wine all the time. She brough independence and strength. Sure, Gwen in the movies did as well, but she was much weaker in the comics.

MJ isn't just a damsell in distress like she was portrayed in the Raimi films, MJ knocked out Chameleon with a baseball bat. She can handle a gun and shot Norman Osborn. She was able to handle Peter's secret and marry him. (Gwen never knew about Peter's double life, so you can't claim she would do any better). So MJ is the keeper of secrets. MJ has brought encouragement and proved herself to be Peter's equal time and again when the going got tough. You are really descrediting her history to say she only had two valid moments. You are leaving out MJ's family issues Peter helped her overcome them and she assisted Peter in beating Smythe before she accepted his proposal. Those were great issues and would certainly fall under great MJ moments.

I don't know what you call a valid moment anyway. How about all the touching moments (pre-OMD) between her and Peter throughout their history, and how they pulled through more trials and pain than Gwen had ever known like having your husband burried alive for weeks, living through most nights thinking your husband may be dead, losing your baby girl, having your husband deamed a clone, or being kept hostage for months and still pulling through to say I love you in the end.

Peter and MJ are the definitive comic book husband and wife for me. When I pick up a new book the underlying question I always have is "Where is Peter's wife?" She brought something extremely special to the books. Gwen never really did that to me. After her death it seemed things could continue, I never asked "Where's Gwen?" On the other hand, the comics feel half empty and Peter is missing part of himself without MJ by his side.

 

[spider-neil]

When they got rid of the MJ Peter marriage I stopped reading Spider-Man.

 

[sl500jazz]

Don't know if this is an unpopular opinion , but anyway:

I think Gwen suffered most from the writers not having a clear idea of what they wanted to do with her and constantly switching directions.

• Dikto introduced her as a stuck-up "beauty queen" who was used to having her way with men, but hated that she couldn't have her way with Peter. This version of the character could have easily turned into Spider-man's first female adversary.
• As soon as Romita stepped in, the character (and the rest of the Peter's supporting cast) mellowed out significantly becoming more understanding and even-tempered.
• They finally introduced MJ after teasing her over several issues. Stan wanted a Betty and Veronica type dynamic between those two females with the intention that Gwen (who had clearly become the more sweet level-headed girl after Ditko left) would be "the one" for Peter.
• MJ was stealing scenes from Gwen so they decided to up Gwen's spunk and give her more of a wild side to better compete with MJ.
• Once it was clear that Peter had chosen Gwen, MJ took a backseat and Gwen lost a lot of her spunk. She was often seen lamenting over something or other (usually related to Peter or her father).
• After death, Gwen is often remembered or re-envisioned as being the sainted virgin of superhero girlfriends. She's practically a demigod: incredibly beautiful and intelligent, endlessly loving and understanding, brave, witty, beloved by all, etc. This Mary Sue portrayal is something that a flawed character like MJ (or any living breathing female for that matter) could never compete with. Sins Past was clearly JMS's poorly executed attempt at squashing this perception of Gwen.

I do think there are certain things that Gwen brought to the table that MJ didn't have, but on the flip-side, there's A LOT that MJ has brought over the past 40+ years that Gwen didn't, and to invalidate all of that based on a "what if..." is ridiculous. These are FICTIONAL characters. They are products of their writers. You can't presume to know that Gwen would've/ could've/should've fared any better than MJ as a romantic interest because ultimately, she didn't. For all we know, if Gwen had lived, she could've been just another ex.

IMO, I like Gwen best when she and MJ are juxtaposed against one another, and we get to see them both for their own individual strengths and weaknesses. My favorite portrayals so far are probably in TSSM and Ultimate. I'm keeping an eye on Spider-Gwen.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

When they got rid of the MJ Peter marriage I stopped reading Spider-Man.

Me too.