Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - Part 43

[Xeno]

Isn't Antiope her "daddy"?

Antiope was Diana's aunt. As in, her mother's sister.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Watched Logan again a few nights ago. A year later and it still holds up as the best comic book film of 2017, if you ask me. Still not exactly my cup of tea, but that's what I love about it. It gets you thinking like a Black Mirror episode. Disturbs you like one too. It doesn't have high replay value for the same reason that show doesn't either. It's almost not supposed to.

Also despite the praise it got, I still find Homecoming a little underrated. It wasn't a genre-defining film like Logan and Wonder Woman, but there's a lot of cultural commentary in that film I feel was overlooked. It highlighted how the world changed for the worse since the 1960s, while reminding us of what people loved about Spider-Man in the 1960s. It's not Batman Begins, but I get why Feige compared the two. It did try to "explain" Spider-Man like how BB tried to "explain" Batman, even if BB did it better.

It also shows the advantages of the Marvel formula. The more I think about it, the Marvel films where the shift between drama and humor felt the most natural are Iron Man and Homecoming. I think that's because 1) they're both character pieces and 2) center on protagonists that do the exact same thing. It didn't ruin the stakes when that guy yelled "Yay Iron Man", because I knew how shameful Peter felt. Tony's wisecracks don't hurt my interest in him, because I know how much he fakes it.

Characters like Thor and Cap don't have that privilege. Even when they get a solo piece, I'm never always in their head like I am around Peter and Tony. They just don't have that personality; they're more extroverted and emotionally stable so they don't benefit as much from the formula as the latter two do.

How's that?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The best looking superhero movie of 2017.

 

[Greens]

How's that?

Yeah, that's a big statement to make. lol

 

[Osiris-Rex]

"See? Like this. This is how you do the lightning thingie."
"Okay, I think I've got it. I hold my hands out and spread my fingers like I'm catching a beach ball."

 

[Shikamaru]

How's that?

We don't talk about this enough, but Spider-Man is a character that emerged out of the 1960s youth independence movement. The same kids that were questioning all the authority around them were the same ones that bought Spider-Man comics.

Flash forward to 2017 and the spirit of the 60s is more-or-less gone (though there's been attempts since the last election to bring it back). Studies show the average kid today feels more powerless, more dependent on Big Business and overall more disciplined. This Peter starts out kinda the same way and as the story progresses he deviates from Tony's wisdom more and more much like how the first Spidey fans did in real life.

Peter's decision at the end to not join the Avengers is Feige's way of pointing out what it is that makes Spider-Man "the greatest superhero ever". They basically point out that the Avengers, despite being heroic, are still an Establishment institution. They care for the little guy, yes, but they still look at the little guy from an ivory tower. Spider-Man succeeds where they can't because he's more in-touch with the little guy.

I can get into more detail about this, but basically Homecoming feels like a love letter made by 60s hippies to Millennials. It feels like someone in the production crew went "Man all the older fans are saying they're tired of Spider-Man, and all the young fans talk about seeing him in the Avengers. Let's make something that reminds both those groups of what it is people loved about Spider-Man."

It's the film this generation needed, if you ask me.

 

[Boy Scout]

Interesting analysis. I, personally, didn’t get any of that out of the film.

 

[Kev4000]

i love this Interpretation of homecoming

 

[Shikamaru]

Interesting analysis. I, personally, didn’t get any of that out of the film.

I forgot who said it, but one of the producers said "Homecoming is a story about wanting to join the cool kids and realizing the cool kid is you." I think that's what they meant.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I forgot who said it, but one of the producers said "Homecoming is a story about wanting to join the cool kids and realizing the cool kid is you." I think that's what they meant.

...but Peter Parker ain't meant to be cool, that's centrally the whole point.

 

[Shikamaru]

...but Peter Parker ain't meant to be cool, that's centrally the whole point.

I think you're taking that too literally. It's a metaphor.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I think you're taking that too literally. It's a metaphor.

Right you are....

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Interesting analysis. I, personally, didn’t get any of that out of the film.

Same here, I don’t dislike Homecoming, but it’s the most over rated CBM this year IMO.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I got it as a Christmas present and didn't see it at the cinema, so gonna give it a watch t'row.

 

[MadVillainy]

Interesting analysis. I, personally, didn’t get any of that out of the film.

Very interesting analysis. But I really doubt they looked that deep into making HC. Even with as good as it was.

And if the point of Peter not joining the Avengers kinda moot if he goes and teams up with The Avengers in IW and i assume A4 and maybe even A5?

That point I think would've been great to make in The Defenders. Have a moment of Stark or Fury (where is he actually, he disappeared after his superfluous appearance AoU...actually hold on where's Agent Hill too?) tries to recruit the Defenders and they say basically: "Nah we're good. You guys handle all the crazy otherworldly stuff. We'll look out for the 'little guy.'" But of course that didn't and wouldn't happen.

I forgot who said it, but one of the producers said "Homecoming is a story about wanting to join the cool kids and realizing the cool kid is you." I think that's what they meant.

So...kinda the same lesson that's put in every teen film about nerds.
And then also isn't Peter already kinda a "cool" kid? I mean at least in the context of his school. Really only Flash messes with him. He pretty easily gets a date with whats-her-face. And even before the date she takes, at the least, a friendly platonic interest in him. He's handsome. He's smart at a very academic minded school...

But it is a very good message. I just wish people, not just kids, would take it to heart.

I got it as a Christmas present and didn't see it at the cinema, so gonna give it a watch t'row.

It is a good movie. Holland and the whole cast is very good. They carry it through a lot of it's flaws imo. Other than Logan I'd say it's the best performed CBM this year by a pretty wide margin.

 

[kguillou]

Homecoming is a good movie but not one that sticks in my mind or had any profound effect on me, really. To me, HC felt like the prelude to a better Spider-man movie yet to come. It didn't have all of that magic and romance and coming of age storytelling that i loved so much about Raimi's SM1 and 2. Holland is hands down the best Peter/ Spidey but Raimi's movies felt much more like SPIDER-MAN films, if that makes sense.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Homecoming is a good movie but not one that sticks in my mind or had any profound effect on me, really. To me, HC felt like the prelude to a better Spider-man movie yet to come. It didn't have all of that magic and romance and coming of age storytelling that i loved so much about Raimi's SM1 and 2. Holland is hands down the best Peter/ Spidey but Raimi's movies felt much more like SPIDER-MAN films, if that makes sense.

Makes a lot of sense, I completely agree.

 

[MadVillainy]

I am looking forward to a HC sequel except I dont like how they said it's going to feature another major MCU character instead of Stark.

Stark wasn't in HC too much, but I was kinda hoping for a Spidey film without another Avenger appearing in a supporting role

 

[kguillou]

I think the HC sequel has the potential to go toe-to-toe with Raimi's Spider-man 2 or even surpass it if they play their cards right. I wanna see Peter get outta Queens and into Manhattan more. Spider-man belongs in the big Apple. I wanna see the Daily Bugle and JJJ again. Its been 10 years, its time to bring them back, its a crucial cornerstone of Spidey's world like the Daily Planet to Superman's. And I want to see more personal stakes involved with Peter and his supporting cast, they should go even further with the "John Hughes" aspect of it all and really get into Peter's relationships-romantic and otherwise- with his supporting cast and how he juggles that with his superhero life.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I forgot who said it, but one of the producers said "Homecoming is a story about wanting to join the cool kids and realizing the cool kid is you." I think that's what they meant.

Felt more like him saying "I'm not ready for this" than "I'm cooler than you"

 

[MadVillainy]

I think the HC sequel has the potential to go toe-to-toe with Raimi's Spider-man 2 or even surpass it if they play their cards right. I wanna see Peter get outta Queens and into Manhattan more. Spider-man belongs in the big Apple. I wanna see the Daily Bugle and JJJ again. Its been 10 years, its time to bring them back, its a crucial cornerstone of Spidey's world like the Daily Planet to Superman's. And I want to see more personal stakes involved with Peter and his supporting cast, they should go even further with the "John Hughes" aspect of it all and really get into Peter's relationships-romantic and otherwise- with his supporting cast and how he juggles that with his superhero life.

The potential has always been there to make something up there with Spider-Man 2. It's always just squandered.

I do wanna see the Bugle again. I agree it's been long enough. It'll be hard to top or match JK Simmons, but they have to try. Not sure who I'd want to play him. I used to want Dennis Farina, but he passed. The Ice Cube choice started as a joke, but i think that could actually work. John C Mcginley could be good

 

[Shikamaru]

Very interesting analysis. But I really doubt they looked that deep into making HC. Even with as good as it was.

And if the point of Peter not joining the Avengers kinda moot if he goes and teams up with The Avengers in IW and i assume A4 and maybe even A5?

That point I think would've been great to make in The Defenders. Have a moment of Stark or Fury (where is he actually, he disappeared after his superfluous appearance AoU...actually hold on where's Agent Hill too?) tries to recruit the Defenders and they say basically: "Nah we're good. You guys handle all the crazy otherworldly stuff. We'll look out for the 'little guy.'" But of course that didn't and wouldn't happen.

It's not really "deep". It's Spider-Man 101 stuff. I mean, it's literally one of the main reasons Spider-Man took off. Film's got a lot of "old gen vs. new gen" parallels too when Peter argues with Toomes and Tony, that plus comments made by the production crew leads me to think it was intentional.

Also he's not joining the Avengers in Infinity, plus Avengers 3 and 4 are more Marvel Superheroes films than Avengers films.

So...kinda the same lesson that's put in every teen film about nerds.

And then also isn't Peter already kinda a "cool" kid? I mean at least in the context of his school. Really only Flash messes with him. He pretty easily gets a date with whats-her-face. And even before the date she takes, at the least, a friendly platonic interest in him. He's handsome. He's smart at a very academic minded school...

But it is a very good message. I just wish people, not just kids, would take it to heart.

Don't watch a lot of teen films so I wouldn't know.

 

[MadVillainy]

Also he's not joining the Avengers in Infinity, plus Avengers 3 and 4 are more Marvel Superheroes films than Avengers films.



Don't watch a lot of teen films so I wouldn't know.

Avengers: Infinity War. They are Avengers films. They may feature a lot of outside things, but they are Avengers films. Civil War featured a lot of moving parts, but it was still a Captain America film.

And you don't have to watch a lot of teen films to know that's a recurring theme.

 

[honestbharani]

Same here, I don’t dislike Homecoming, but it’s the most over rated CBM this year IMO.

Interesting. Until Thor 3 happened, I had it as the best. But I flip flop around this and Logan on which is better. To me its the fact that they went low scale with this story even though they could potentially do a $1B movie with a bit more Stark and a bigger villain is such a good call. It shows they have their long term plans worked out well. And yeah, I feel its the best Spidey movie ever, at least live action.

 

[Shikamaru]

Avengers: Infinity War. They are Avengers films. They may feature a lot of outside things, but they are Avengers films. Civil War featured a lot of moving parts, but it was still a Captain America film.

And you don't have to watch a lot of teen films to know that's a recurring theme.

Sure. They're Avengers films featuring Spider-Man then. My point still stands it doesn't make him an Avenger like it doesn't make the Guardians Avengers.