Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[hafizbat]

I think saying Gadot is like Hemsworth is really, really underselling Hemsworth. Marvel basically didn't know what to do with Thor and just let Hemsworth use his natural charm and comedic timing to turn the character into one of the best in the MCU.

You can't tell me with a straight face Gadot would be able to do that.

And Momoa is the dollar store version of Hemsworth.

 

[TheGuy]

Gadot is more of a Hemsworth than a Downey to me, as she's hit-or-miss (putting it generously) in other roles, and basically owes her success to being extremely well-suited to the character she's playing and working under the right director to help her performances. Because based on her other WW performances, she wouldn't have been able to carry that solo film without Patty Jenkins, imo.

RDJ's an Oscar-caliber actor who'd been delivering top notch performances for a couple decades. Iron Man was a breakout hit simply because someone was finally savvy enough to put him in a blockbuster and let him do his thing. The DCEU doesn't have "their RDJ" yet, imo.

Bolded is the only point that matters. Gadot is nowhere near an actor like RDJ but she doesn't have to be, because she fits so perfectly as WW. Physicality? Check. Selling WW's fish out of water characterization? Check. Charm and toughness? Check. How is her acting outside WW relevant to the discussion? Confining the disccusion towards her acting strictly as WW under different directors (Snyder and Whedon), she still did great and good, respectively.

RDJ, the superior actor he may be, has brought a worse performance in IM3. Well, everything about that movie is garbage anyway. And most of his performances outside of IM1 and Endgame are just okay at best.

Jason? Eh, he's likable enough under the right director, but he ain't Aquaman to me.

Me thinks you're probably equating the characterization to the acting, which is different. Nevertheless, Aquaman made $1.1b for two things: insane action and Momoa. Movies don't suddenly make $1b+ if the star and movie itself are not great or good.

 

[Flint Marko]

RDJ, the superior actor he may be, has brought a worse performance in IM3. Well, everything about that movie is garbage anyway.

Movies don't suddenly make $1b+ if the star and movie itself are not great or good.

Lmao.

 

[Erzengel]

How much did IM3 make? LOL

 

[Deck Rickard]

I can’t take credit for that one. If you haven’t seen the Aquaman Honest Trailer, I highly recommend it. It might be their best one ever.

 

[TheGuy]

How much did IM3 make? LOL

Eh. There are always exemptions. Generally, they have to be good to make $1b but there are other contributing factors. My point was directed at Aquaman, specifically. IM3 followed TA, so it's success was in no doubt.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I don't think Momoa improved much at all. I think the difference between Aquaman and JL is that Aquaman is pretty and kind of easy to follow and makes plenty of use of Momoa's sex appeal and has good action. JL was just an ugly, terrible movie with nothing to offer in the first place, so every aspect of it including the actors felt worse. Even Gadot struggled to be fun in JL, and while I don't think she's one of the great actresses of the era, I do think the Thor/Hemsworth comparison is accurate - she's perfect for the character and she'll continue to carry that character for many movies, imo.

Miller's just irritating. I don't really even know exactly what it is - and it's not solely him, either, because he isn't nearly as irritating in the FB stuff. He just doesn't work for me as the Flash at all.

The RDJ of the DCEU should have been Cavill, and I think he honestly has the chops to be that and absolutely could have grown into it based on MoS, with a more logical, measured, forward-moving story. But his characterization was so heavily undermined in BvS and especially Justice League that his version of the character just became toxic rather than beloved.

Agree with all of that, except that I feel like Evans is a better comparison for what Cavill should have been, both in terms of the character and the actor. Evans isn’t quite at RDJ’s level as an actor but he is very good and is a perfect, wholesome foil to RDJ’s more brash Stark. I think the actor playing Batman should (kinda) fill that Stark role; he shouldn’t be quipping frequently but he should have a bit of a cocky attitude and provide as much tension in the group as he provides help. That dynamic, if written well, provides a winning formula for a JL or World’s Finest film.

They wanted Affleck to be that, but he just (IMO) didn’t have the talent for it. His Batman to me felt like a caricature; he looked okay in the suit (some of the time anyway) he did the voice and all that but it still felt very one-note to me. I feel like Batman is one of the more complex superhero characters and you need an RDJ-level talent for that, which is why Bale and Keaton worked. Hopefully Pattinson can be that, even if his movies aren’t connected to the greater DCEU as a whole.

 

[Erzengel]

Eh. There are always exemptions. Generally, they have to be good to make $1b but there are other contributing factors. My point was directed at Aquaman, specifically. IM3 followed TA, so it's success was in no doubt.

Why is IM3 the exception and not Aquaman?

 

[Zarex]

RDJ, the superior actor he may be, has brought a worse performance in IM3. Well, everything about that movie is garbage anyway. And most of his performances outside of IM1 and Endgame are just okay at best.

I would say we take RDJ's consistent excellence for granted and the MCU is going to feel his absence. His performance in Civil War, in which he portrayed a version of Tony who was barely keeping it together, was particularly wonderful. In my opinion he should have gotten a best supporting actor nod.

 

[Bayne]

Agree with all of that, except that I feel like Evans is a better comparison for what Cavill should have been, both in terms of the character and the actor. Evans isn’t quite at RDJ’s level as an actor but he is very good and is a perfect, wholesome foil to RDJ’s more brash Stark. I think the actor playing Batman should (kinda) fill that Stark role; he shouldn’t be quipping frequently but he should have a bit of a cocky attitude and provide as much tension in the group as he provides help. That dynamic, if written well, provides a winning formula for a JL or World’s Finest film.

They wanted Affleck to be that, but he just (IMO) didn’t have the talent for it. His Batman to me felt like a caricature; he looked okay in the suit (some of the time anyway) he did the voice and all that but it still felt very one-note to me. I feel like Batman is one of the more complex superhero characters and you need an RDJ-level talent for that, which is why Bale and Keaton worked. Hopefully Pattinson can be that, even if his movies aren’t connected to the greater DCEU as a whole.

I can see that, though I was personally not thinking in terms of trying to replicate the specific dynamic of Downey/Evans, but rather just looking for the most memorable actor with the talent to anchor the universe. I think Cavill could've done that with better material. I think he did do it in MoS, despite some minor story flaws/issues, though he didn't have as much flash as Downey since the character was (ironically) more down to earth.

Affleck actually wasn't as bad as I feared in BvS. He wasn't great, but I thought - with better material - he might have some potential. (Though that suit really didn't work for me or him, imo - CBMs are too smooth these days to send Batman back in a suit that requires him to turn his entire body to look left and right, it's not believable anymore). But when JL came around, Affleck was completely checked out imo. I'm not sure I've seen a more phoned in performance in my life. Although - again, with that material, who can blame him?

 

[Travesty]

I(Though that suit really didn't work for me or him, imo - CBMs are too smooth these days to send Batman back in a suit that requires him to turn his entire body to look left and right, it's not believable anymore).

What?

 

[Deck Rickard]

I can see that, though I was personally not thinking in terms of trying to replicate the specific dynamic of Downey/Evans, but rather just looking for the most memorable actor with the talent to anchor the universe. I think Cavill could've done that with better material. I think he did do it in MoS, despite some minor story flaws/issues, though he didn't have as much flash as Downey since the character was (ironically) more down to earth.

Affleck actually wasn't as bad as I feared in BvS. He wasn't great, but I thought - with better material - he might have some potential. (Though that suit really didn't work for me or him, imo - CBMs are too smooth these days to send Batman back in a suit that requires him to turn his entire body to look left and right, it's not believable anymore). But when JL came around, Affleck was completely checked out imo. I'm not sure I've seen a more phoned in performance in my life. Although - again, with that material, who can blame him?

Yeah, I feel like MOS is a flawed movie but Cavill is really good in it and could have been great if they had let him be more hopeful and less angsty. There was a chance to do that in a sequel (and I honestly think they COULD have done that even in a sequel with Batman, to contrast the two characters), but instead, they just basically had him silently brooding the whole time so they could give more screentime to Affleck and Eisenberg. I think I might hate that movie more than the Schumacher Batman films, because at least those movies I can just laugh at. BvS legitimate pisses me off because when you bring the two greatest superheroes of all time together, you need to knock it out of the park. Anything less than that is a failure.

And yeah. He really does look stiff in that Batsuit (cue someone posting the gif of the warehouse fight to prove me wrong). Aside from one scene (in which I believe parts of the suit were missing so he could actually fight), he moved like Robocop.

 

[Bayne]

What?

His shoulders move like the Keaton rubber suit (with the exception of maybe a handful of moments they managed to fix with camera angles). That was fine when rubber suits were the best you could expect from superhero movie armor, but Batman is supposed to be a brilliant, quick hand-to-hand fighter. Trying to sell me the idea that stiff-necked Batfleck is a brilliant hand-to-hand fighter in a world where I've already seen Bale's bat, Evans' Cap, Boseman's Panther, etc, is just ridiculous. Visually, Affleck was a more believable superhero in the old leather Daredevil suit than in this Bat-suit.

 

[Travesty]

But he was able to freely move his head left and right, and he has some of the best hand-to-hand fight scenes.

I'm just confused by your claims there. It makes no sense to me.

 

[The Joker]

Why is IM3 the exception and not Aquaman?

Well there may be other factors involved, but one thing that stands out, and I think you'd agree is that RDJ's Iron Man was already a big audience favorite after featuring in two solo movies and TA. Even though most consider IM2 weak, RDJ made it watchable. Cannot say the same for Aquaman after BvS (where he was a forgettable cameo) and JL.

 

[Bayne]

But he was able to freely move his head left and right, and he has some of the best hand-to-hand fight scenes.

I'm just confused by your claims there. It makes no sense to me.

He didn't look freely able to move left and right. His shoulders seemed to be coming along for the ride in almost every shot and there were multiple moments where he seemed to be just barely turning his head and using his eyes to look to the side instead of just turning his head all the way like a normal person. And the only decent hand-to-hand fight scene he had was in the warehouse and even that was overrated. The vast majority of decent action shots I can think of/find on google are just him going straight at someone, which are the only kind of shots where the stiffness of the suit wouldn't matter.

I don't have any gifs or anything to post for examples and there don't seem to be all that many Batfleck gifs out there for the taking anyway, and I'm certainly not going to rewatch a movie I hated even after seeing it multiple times to find exact moments to point to, but I can tell you the moment which stuck out to me the most when I saw BvS in theaters: the final fight with Doomsday there's a shot where Batman lands somewhere (maybe he shoots something at Doomsday in between, I'm not sure) and then turns to shoot his grapple gun somewhere else to avoid getting hit. The ridiculous length of time it took for him to turn his shoulders around to fire the gun in a different direction just totally killed all my suspension of disbelief and I couldn't help but wonder about how amazing it was that he wasn't already crushed to death before he finally managed to 'dodge' out of the way.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Movies don't suddenly make $1b+ if the star and movie itself are not great or good.

I'm afraid I have to disagree:

1. The Lion King-----$1,656,405,082
2. Star Wars: The Last Jedi-----$1,332,539,889
3. Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom-----$1,309,484,461
4. Beauty and the Beast-----$1,263,521,126
5. Transformers: Dark of the Moon-----$1,123,794,079
6. Transformers: Age of Extinction-----$1,104,054,072
7. Aladdin-----$1,050,693,953
8. Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides-----$1,045,713,802
9. Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace-----$1,027,044,677
10. Alice in Wonderland-----$1,025,467,110
11. The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey-----$1,021,103,568

The best of these movies is mediocre, and at least 8 of them are bad.

 

[Flint Marko]

The Last Jedi is a really good movie IMO.

 

[Bayne]

The Last Jedi is a really good movie IMO.

The Last Jedi made me interested in Star Wars as something more than just a generic sci-fi franchise. Also entirely redeemed one of my most disliked characters in history (Luke Skywalker).

 

[hafizbat]

The Last Jedi made me question if I even actually like Star Wars.

 

[Detective Conan]

The Last Jedi made me interested in Star Wars as something more than just a generic sci-fi franchise. Also entirely redeemed one of my most disliked characters in history (Luke Skywalker).

That’s interesting to me that you feel this way. Even most of the people who love Last Jedi aren’t too fond of Luke’s portrayal. I think part of the reason people don’t like TLJ’s version of Luke is because they don’t like the idea of Luke being a Jedi space hermit which is such a major contrast to where we last saw him in ROTJ where he was a fully formed Jedi Knight that had redeemed his father but I still vastly prefer the TLJ’s take on Luke to the bland EU version(who’s overpowered).

Probably going to ruffle more than a few feathers with what I just typed but it’s just how I feel.

 

[Web-Head]

I didn't care for Momoa either way in JL. He was mostly just there and didn't make much of an impression on me and I liked Aquaman quite a bit, but Momoa didn't exactly "wow" me.

The way I look at it is "Can you see someone else in the role right now?" With RDJ, with Evans and with Gadot, I wouldn't like to see anyone else playing those characters for a long while. If all of a sudden Momoa dropped out and they'd need to recast I'd just say "That sucks, but let's see who they get"

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

The Last Jedi made me question if I even actually like Star Wars.

I can relate to that, although the Mandalorian has confirmed that I do like it. I think The Last Jedi is a bad film even when ignoring that it's Star Wars as it has so many logic holes, plenty of plots that just don't amount to much, and characters that are treading water.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I didn't care for Momoa either way in JL. He was mostly just there and didn't make much of an impression on me and I liked Aquaman quite a bit, but Momoa didn't exactly "wow" me.

The way I look at it is "Can you see someone else in the role right now?" With RDJ, with Evans and with Gadot, I wouldn't like to see anyone else playing those characters for a long while. If all of a sudden Momoa dropped out and they'd need to recast I'd just say "That sucks, but let's see who they get"

RDJ and Evans are on a different level than Gadot in my view because they can portray their characters so well in all circumstances. Gadot just doesn't have the acting range that would allow for the same, which means that I'd be glad if WW was portrayed by a more complete actor so they could go in more varied directions. I'd be much more inclined to throw Hemsworth in there as he's shown quite a bit of quality and range as Thor by now, which is especially hard to find when you want a guy of his size.

 

[Boy Scout]

I think it’s...too early to compare Gadot to RDJ, Evans, or Hemsworth.