Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[metaphysician]

WandaVision is a wonderfully faithful rendition of classic sitcoms that looks great and features terrific performances. But it also carrier a sinister undercurrent with ties to the greater MCU. And it is also completely different from the prior 23 MCU films, which according to some folks all follow the same exact formula. What's not to love?

A lesson I have learned from far too many video game fandom debates, that almost certain applies here: people may *say* they want different, but they seldom actually do. "Its too repetitive, I want something new" typically means either:

1. "I want them to fix flaws in the material that I lack the skills to accurately identify or describe, so I just put it down as wanting change"

2. "I didn't like it in the first place, and don't actually want it changed, I just want something completely unrelated"

 

[metaphysician]

For real WandaVision is the project to silence anyone who says “MCU movies/shows follow the same formula etc.” That show is making strides. Bettany and Olsen’s chemistry is undeniable, you can see they trust each other.

Show me the last superhero movie to be taped in front of a live studio audience and juxtapose sitcoms and the Twilight Zone and I’ll give you an Infinity Gem.

You are right about what it *should* do, but I hope you don't hold your breath about it *actually* doing that. If none of the prior boundary-pushing Marvel productions made people realize that their definition of "formula" was uselessly broad, this won't either. And that is for the people actually arguing in good faith.

 

[Flint Marko]

2. "I didn't like it in the first place, and don't actually want it changed, I just want something completely unrelated"

Watching a good chunk of the "Marvel makes dumb jokey kids movies" crowd eventually go on to like Suicide Squad/Aquaman/Shazam made that pretty apparent. And I like 2 of those movies, to be clear.

For real WandaVision is the project to silence anyone who says “MCU movies/shows follow the same formula etc.” That show is making strides. Bettany and Olsen’s chemistry is undeniable, you can see they trust each other.

Show me the last superhero movie to be taped in front of a live studio audience and juxtapose sitcoms and the Twilight Zone and I’ll give you an Infinity Gem.

I didn't expect them to commit that hard to the sitcom premise. Watching two straight episodes of almost entirely black and white, laugh-track-infused hijinks was surprising but welcome.

It's going to put a lot of people off but I'm intrigued. I'll admit it hasn't grabbed me by the throat yet, but I'm not against the slow-burn at this point. Watching episode 3 tonight.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Surprised so many find Doctor Strange under rated, if anything over rated for me, such a vanilla MCU that I felt like I had seen 10 times before. Thor, Ant-Man and Captain Marvel were much more unique for me.

Can’t wait to see what Raimi does with DS2 though.

 

[Erzengel]

I love the final battle in Doctor Strange cause it's different from the final fight in most other CBM.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I love the final battle in Doctor Strange cause it's different from the final fight in most other CBM.

Best part of the movie for sure, the rest I find underwhelming.

 

[Erzengel]

It's middling because of the dozen other movies just in the MCU that are easily better than it. But I agree that McAdams is underused but Cumberbatch is great as Strange and the dynamic with Ejiofor's Mordo, Swinton's Ancient One and Wong's ....Wong thought was well done.

 

[fan4stic]

Captain America TFA, Thor, Doctor Strange and Captain Marvel are all underrated gems of the MCU. I know people find Ant Man & The Wasp forgettable, but I appreciate it for the mindless fun movie that it was.

But after rewatching Captain Marvel earlier this week I still stand by the notion that it is better than Wonder Woman. Even with gentle Skrulls.

I don't think any of that, except the Thor part, construction wise and such. I liked TFA fine, but I don't think it's underated. I think Captain Marvel is a weak movie with weak characters, that lacks the interesting time period use, compelling character dynamics and character drama, that I think Wonder Woman has. Doctor Strange meanwhile, is among of the worst of the MCU movies. It has parts that I personally can engage in, but everything else, nah, it's with Thor The Dark World in that arena. Ragnarok, despite being around a similar line, I'm entertained by.

 

[Web-Head]

The first half or so of this episode of WandaVision I wasn't feeling at all, but things picked up towards the end where it got really good.

 

[The Batman]

Personally, I wouldn't say TFA, IM3, Dr. Strange, or Captain Marvel are underrated at all. In particular, both Iron Man 3 and Captain Marvel overachieved BO wise, given that neither film is great or even good, IMO.

 

[fan4stic]

I can understand the humor being off-putting for some but I don't think Thor's characterization was spoiled or anything in Ragnarok. Was he a little more jokey than before? Sure, we know that Hemsworth wanted it because he does have a natural comedic talent which he wanted to incorporate within the character. He does this in Infinity War (a little) and Endgame (a lot) as well. People have said that this doesn't fit Thor but I disagree. In Ragnarok, MCU Thor has spent enough time around humans like the Avengers that he'd naturally adopt some of their traits in his own interactions, such as the occasional humorous quip. But besides that, and more importantly, let's not forget that MCU Thor was never all that serious to begin with:

There's a difference between having comedy in the charcter, and changing the characterization of the character mid stream to be more "chill surfer frat bro". None of the movies, before Ragnarok do that with the character. I like, in a way, what's done with the idea of his characterization, but that doesn't mean it's consistent and couldn't have been developed to in previous movies. That's among the changes I'd have preferred to see for the characters in Avengers Age of Ultron, along with changes to other characters.

Ragnarok elevated the character in a way all of Thor's previous appearances never did.

I think Infinity War more did that in using the hard emotional pain of the character to fuel the intensity of the drama for that character's storyline. I was entertained by him in Ragnarok, but I think there's a lack of character based drama in the majority for the character and for Banner. I don't see the logic of even having the warriors 3 die in the movie if it was never going to show the effect of it on Thor. He never even finds out.

Re: Underrated MCU films, I still say the most underrated is Ant-Man 2. Yes, its ultimately a small scale stakes movie, but. . . well, to be blunt, we need more movies where the stakes are "the souls of a handful of people". Because that was exactly what the movie was about, whether either or both of the characters at risk would sacrifice everything that could make them a worthwhile person to get what they want. It was a movie with two tragically flawed sides and Scott Lang caught in the middle, trying to save everyone while also not losing his own family.

That can be done, and not be what I think is a weakly story written, but oddly overstuffed of characters, and lack of character based driven pain and trauma dealing with and personal drama payoff of characters, to me, movie.

A lesson I have learned from far too many video game fandom debates, that almost certain applies here: people may *say* they want different, but they seldom actually do. "Its too repetitive, I want something new" typically means either:

1. "I want them to fix flaws in the material that I lack the skills to accurately identify or describe, so I just put it down as wanting change"

2. "I didn't like it in the first place, and don't actually want it changed, I just want something completely unrelated"

I think that's dismissive and I have seen cases of people presenting what they want. Even if it was the case that they don't know what to describe, or want something unrelated, is that bad?

Watching a good chunk of the "Marvel makes dumb jokey kids movies" crowd eventually go on to like Suicide Squad/Aquaman/Shazam made that pretty apparent. And I like 2 of those movies, to be clear.

Depending on which movies they may see as dumb jokey kids movies, I actually think all those movies more hit more intense character drama than something like MCU's Spider-Man movies, and Captain Marvel.

Personally, I wouldn't say TFA, IM3, Dr. Strange, or Captain Marvel are underrated at all. In particular, both Iron Man 3 and Captain Marvel overachieved BO wise, given that neither film is great or even good, IMO.

For me, I feel for Iron Man 3, in spite of my not liking it as much as Iron Man 1 and other MCU movies, I feel like it's doing more with it's main character and it's story than much of those other movies are.

 

[Flint Marko]

Depending on which movies they may see as dumb jokey kids movies, I actually think all those movies more hit more intense character drama than something like MCU's Spider-Man movies, and Captain Marvel.

Even Suicide Squad? I like Aquaman but I don’t recall it working super well from a dramatic standpoint, but... Suicide Squad?

 

[Drizzle]

Depending on which movies they may see as dumb jokey kids movies, I actually think all those movies more hit more intense character drama than something like MCU's Spider-Man movies, and Captain Marvel.

I'd rank Aquaman and Shazam to be about more or less the same tier as MCU Spidey, but where in Suicide Squad was there a scene as poignant as this in terms of character drama?



Or even this?

 

[fan4stic]

I'd rank Aquaman and Shazam to be about more or less the same tier as MCU Spidey, but where in Suicide Squad was there a scene as poignant as this in terms of character drama?



Or even this?

I think those are both solid scenes. Personally I think Homecoming is the stronger movie out of the 2 MCU movies, but I do think Aquaman and Shazam both have a more dramatic bent in some aspects as far as story wise. I think the stuff with Billy Batson and having to face his mom who abandoned him, while I think not used for what I think it's potential is, has more personal weight than parts of that.

Even Suicide Squad? I like Aquaman but I don’t recall it working super well from a dramatic standpoint, but... Suicide Squad?

Story wise, I think there's a more dramatic bent to them, moreso Aquaman, to me. But also, I think the characters, mostly are used more in dramatic structures in those movies. Homecoming is a better movie than SS and Aquaman, no question, but I also think it's in the personal dramatic emotion arena, where I think it doddles more. I think there's more of harshness to some of the character's in that movie. I don't see that in the MCU Spider-Man as much, as I'd prefer. I find some of the things Peter has to face more trivial, in what I think the movie displays.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am watching the third episode of WandaVision. Just started.

Spoiler

I am going to be completely wrong and say Wanda is somehow "pregnant" with Pietro.

 

[Web-Head]

I am watching the third episode of WandaVision. Just started.

Spoiler

I am going to be completely wrong and say Wanda is somehow "pregnant" with Pietro.

Completely wrong

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Completely wrong

But...

Spoiler

It did lead to her bringing him up! So I will take the win.

 

[Web-Head]

But...

Spoiler

It did lead to her bringing him up! So I will take the win.

 

[Web-Head]

I wonder if they'll retcon both Deadpool movies as MCU now or they'll use Multiverse shenanigans to have Wade crossover

 

[Kev4000]

I wonder if they'll retcon both Deadpool movies as MCU now or they'll use Multiverse shenanigans to have Wade crossover

They will use the multiverse thing for sure, because Deadpool had too much X-man guests and references in it.

It will be funny because in german dub Reynolds and Evans have the same voice actor

 

[metaphysician]

I think that's dismissive and I have seen cases of people presenting what they want. Even if it was the case that they don't know what to describe, or want something unrelated, is that bad?

Actually yes, on both counts:

1. If you are a fan of an artistic medium, you really ought to be encouraged to learn more about the medium, so you actually can accurately describe what it is about a given movie/TV show/video game/etc that you like, or dislike, that makes it work, or not work. That this is viewed as unimportant or unnecessary is a bad thing.

2. If you want something unrelated, you should go elsewhere and *get* that something unrelated, rather than demand that Movie Series X change itself into said completely unrelated thing. If you do otherwise, it either means you haven't realized what you actually want ( see 1 ), or else you are being selfish and spiteful and don't think other people deserve to have what *they* want if you don't like it.

 

[Web-Head]

 

[Bayne]

There's a difference between having comedy in the charcter, and changing the characterization of the character mid stream to be more "chill surfer frat bro". None of the movies, before Ragnarok do that with the character. I like, in a way, what's done with the idea of his characterization, but that doesn't mean it's consistent and couldn't have been developed to in previous movies. That's among the changes I'd have preferred to see for the characters in Avengers Age of Ultron, along with changes to other characters.I think Infinity War more did that in using the hard emotional pain of the character to fuel the intensity of the drama for that character's storyline. I was entertained by him in Ragnarok, but I think there's a lack of character based drama in the majority for the character and for Banner. I don't see the logic of even having the warriors 3 die in the movie if it was never going to show the effect of it on Thor. He never even finds out.That can be done, and not be what I think is a weakly story written, but oddly overstuffed of characters, and lack of character based driven pain and trauma dealing with and personal drama payoff of characters, to me, movie.I think that's dismissive and I have seen cases of people presenting what they want. Even if it was the case that they don't know what to describe, or want something unrelated, is that bad?Depending on which movies they may see as dumb jokey kids movies, I actually think all those movies more hit more intense character drama than something like MCU's Spider-Man movies, and Captain Marvel.For me, I feel for Iron Man 3, in spite of my not liking it as much as Iron Man 1 and other MCU movies, I feel like it's doing more with it's main character and it's story than much of those other movies are.

Aquaman had absolutely jack **** for solid character drama. The entire movie is pure visual setpiece orgasm with no room for anything else, including decent acting or characterization. Suicide Squad had some decent scenes of it, they just weren't well written or at all logical for those characters - but the actors kind of made them work anyway.

Shazam is one of the better dramatic entries to the genre in general, though it has separate issues, but Homecoming and Captain Marvel absolutely bury Aquaman and SS under this metric.

 

[Drizzle]

I wonder if they'll retcon both Deadpool movies as MCU now or they'll use Multiverse shenanigans to have Wade crossover

I am really curious if the Deadpool movies and any pre-Homecoming Spider-Man films will be rebranded as MCU following the incorporation via multiverse. It's easier to do for Deadpool and any X-Men movies since Disney now owns Fox but Spider-Man is, as always, a trickier situation because of Sony. If I were to compare the entire Marvel film library to a video game, the mainline MCU films would be the "main story" and the Raimi and Webb Spider-Man films and Deadpool movies, etc. would be the "side quests", not necessarily essential to the overall storyline but it definitely enhances it.

If Marvel Studios didn't have such an extensive cast of characters to choose from to put to film first or if they were putting out three movies a year back in Phase 2 or if Disney+ wasn't a thing then sure, a Hawkeye movie would make sense. But as it is I think the overall concept they're going with works better as a series anyway.

 

[Sithborg]

Aquaman had absolutely jack **** for solid character drama. The entire movie is pure visual setpiece orgasm with no room for anything else, including decent acting or characterization. Suicide Squad had some decent scenes of it, they just weren't well written or at all logical for those characters - but the actors kind of made them work anyway.

Shazam is one of the better dramatic entries to the genre in general, though it has separate issues, but Homecoming and Captain Marvel absolutely bury Aquaman and SS under this metric.

Given its length, it had plenty of time to do some character stuff. They just chose not to in favor of CGI "spectacle".