Superman in the Marvel Universe (a purely theoretical discussion)

[fifthfiend]

Everyone? Yeah, I'm gonna go with "everyone" on that one.

Huh, here and I thought you were were in the pro-Hal Butchery column.

I do too. But Marvel Comics' idea of morality would eat Superman up and spit him out. There's no room for a good guy in the Marvel U. That's why they killed them all.

They have THE SENTRY!!!!

 

[moraldeficiency]

I do too. But Marvel Comics' idea of morality would eat Superman up and spit him out. There's no room for a good guy in the Marvel U. That's why they killed them all.

Yeah, it's a good thing there are no evil versions or conflicted heroes in the DCU. I mean what a terrible idea if you had say an evil Hal Jordan running around, or an evil version of superman. What's next, Wonder Woman killing people? Next thing you know you'd take a completely good character with almost perfect innocence, someone like say Mary Marvel, and have her running around doing Darkseid's bidding. That would suck. I'm so glad the DCU is strictly about morality plays and doesn't dick around with making their good guys evil just to sell books or be controversial.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Huh, here and I thought you were were in the pro-Hal Butchery column.

I'm in the pro-good stories with good characters column. Pretty much diametrically opposed to Zero Hour since it 1) sucked and 2) featured Hal prominently.

 

[Xofenroht]

I do too. But Marvel Comics' idea of morality would eat Superman up and spit him out. There's no room for a good guy in the Marvel U. That's why they killed them all.

Dude, the real worlds' idea of morality would eat Superman up and spit him out. That's why he doesn't work in Marvel, because it's based heavily in real world dilemmas. I find comfort in the idea of my favorite heroes making mistakes sometimes, because I make mistakes sometimes and hell...everybody does.

Besides, there are no surprises in a story if the good guy ALWAYS wins, whether it be against himself or a villain or just life in general.

And yeah, I read DC for a while, but just couldn't stand it so I narrowed it down to Batman and also some of the Vertigo titles. I even tried getting back into it and reading Countdown, but then Jimmy Olsen had to turn into some huge frickin' lizard thing out of nowhere and totally screw my taste for "Final Crisis".


Yeah, both comic companies are great, but I think the rivalry between them is important. DC and Marvel challenge each other. Without a sense of competition, there is no reason to try to tell better stories. Without the JLA, there would be no Avengers.

 

[SuGarRush]

Dude, the real worlds' idea of morality would eat Superman up and spit him out. That's why he doesn't work in Marvel, because it's based heavily in real world dilemmas. I find comfort in the idea of my favorite heroes making mistakes sometimes, because I make mistakes sometimes and hell...everybody does.

Besides, there are no surprises in a story if the good guy ALWAYS wins, whether it be against himself or a villain or just life in general.

And yeah, I read DC for a while, but just couldn't stand it so I narrowed it down to Batman and also some of the Vertigo titles. I even tried getting back into it and reading Countdown, but then Jimmy Olsen had to turn into some huge frickin' lizard thing out of nowhere and totally screw my taste for "Final Crisis".


Yeah, both comic companies are great, but I think the rivalry between them is important. DC and Marvel challenge each other. Without a sense of competition, there is no reason to try to tell better stories. Without the JLA, there would be no Avengers.

I'm just going to reference one point you made. The real world doesn't have a standardized sense of morality.

I don't even read most Marvel comics at this point because I just can't identify with the characters. Superman though, and his morality, I totally get. So no, the vast majority of people yes, but there are quite a few of us who "get" Superman.

 

[Aristotle]

They have THE SENTRY!!!!

But this is like "compassionate conservatism." When you have to point out the exception, it only proves the rule. Besides, anyone who served on Tony Stark's side in the Civil War has their good-guy credentials at least on probation, if not revoked.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, it's a good thing there are no evil versions or conflicted heroes in the DCU.

Oh hey, a thing I didn't say. How 'bout that.

I mean what a terrible idea if you had say an evil Hal Jordan running around, or an evil version of superman. What's next, Wonder Woman killing people? Next thing you know you'd take a completely good character with almost perfect innocence, someone like say Mary Marvel, and have her running around doing Darkseid's bidding. That would suck. I'm so glad the DCU is strictly about morality plays and doesn't dick around with making their good guys evil just to sell books or be controversial.

I've never called for strict, black-and-white morality. Far from it. What I call for is heroes that are good guys and villains that are bad guys, however that might play out, and certainly not with the same ideas of what is right and wrong every time. And not all the time. But it seems to me that our modern pantheon of gods, our popular mythology, could serve a much higher purpose than reminding us of how much humanity and real life suck. I'd like to be inspired. I realize that optimism and belief in humanity and idealism and ethics and inspiration are going out of fashion, and haven't been cool in a long time. I guess that's just how we ass-backwards hicks from Kansas think.

In the DCU, when Hal Jordan turns evil, it's a crisis, and no matter how sympathetic he was during that time, he was the bad guy. And it was considered a character rape that Geoff Johns had to go back and remedy. When Wonder Woman killed Max Lord, that was her sin, comparable to Batman's creation of Brother I and Superman's failure to act. It was one of the sins that had darkened the universe and helped to bring about the Crisis. When Mary Marvel turns evil, it's obvious, and most of us didn't like it.

But over in the MU, when Tony Stark and half the superheroes of the nation violently and brutally enforce a regime usually perpetrated by the likes of Dr. Doom, Magneto, or Lex Luthor, it's presented as a question of gray morality. Nobody was right, nobody was wrong, that's what that entire event told us. Every book seemed to echo that message. A select few like the Spidey issues and The Confession, said otherwise. But on the whole, Civil War was one gigantic postmodern orgy. And that's what Marvel's been for most of its existence. That's what defines Marvel: gray, postmodern moral systems, and barely sympathetic characters. I live with enough of that in real life. I'd like a bit of inspiration, a bit of hope, a bit of idealism, a bit of heroism, please.

 

[fifthfiend]

Kansas

You know I was kind of wondering why you're such an angry dude so much of the time and then I saw that and it's like oh yeah, I guess that'll do it.

But this is like "compassionate conservatism." When you have to point out the exception, it only proves the rule. Besides, anyone who served on Tony Stark's side in the Civil War has their good-guy credentials at least on probation, if not revoked.

I was actually trying to ironically indicate that the closest thing Marvel has these days to an "idealistic" superhero is actually a chronically depressed mass murderer which everyone kind of tries to avoid mentioning out of fear that he'll start mass-murdering people again.

 

[Aristotle]

You know I was kind of wondering why you're such an angry dude so much of the time and then I saw that and it's like oh yeah, I guess that'll do it.

In my personal life, I'm actually quite happy, but when it comes to issues on a broader scope, whether it's comics or politics, I tend to be pretty angry, yes. But I love Kansas. I love Kansas and I love America, even though I'm sure that's hard for most people to believe.

 

[fifthfiend]

I love Kansas... even though I'm sure that's hard for most people to believe.

You are correct, that is extremely hard for me to believe.

Okay no I jest, Kansas City is actually quite charming.

 

[Anubis]

They have awesome Barbecue. Or is that the other Kansas City?

I'm in the pro-good stories with good characters column. Pretty much diametrically opposed to Zero Hour since it 1) sucked and 2) featured Hal prominently.

Well, like most meh to flat out horrible events, some pretty good stuff came out of it. DnA Legion. Starman and later, JSA.

 

[Aristotle]

They have awesome Barbecue. Or is that the other Kansas City?

Both. KCK's got quite a bit more of the suburban-whitebread population, but there's good barbecue there too, if you know where you're looking for it. But mostly it's KCMO.

 

[Xofenroht]

It's all about Detroit.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Oh hey, a thing I didn't say. How 'bout that.

I never said you made that statement just that the statement contridicts your idiotic point.

I've never called for strict, black-and-white morality. Far from it. What I call for is heroes that are good guys and villains that are bad guys, however that might play out, and certainly not with the same ideas of what is right and wrong every time. And not all the time. But it seems to me that our modern pantheon of gods, our popular mythology, could serve a much higher purpose than reminding us of how much humanity and real life suck. I'd like to be inspired. I realize that optimism and belief in humanity and idealism and ethics and inspiration are going out of fashion, and haven't been cool in a long time. I guess that's just how we ass-backwards hicks from Kansas think.

You don't want black and white morality, but you want your heroes to be heroes and your villians to be villians? I guess people in kansas really do think differently or at least define concepts in wacky fashion.

BTW, how inspiring is it when you see someone perfect that always makes the right decissions and wins in the end. You can't really relate to that, maybe inspire to be perfect in every way, but that will also lead to heartache. It's the flaws and weaknesses in people and those that rise above them that make real world heroes.

In the DCU, when Hal Jordan turns evil, it's a crisis, and no matter how sympathetic he was during that time, he was the bad guy. And it was considered a character rape that Geoff Johns had to go back and remedy. When Wonder Woman killed Max Lord, that was her sin, comparable to Batman's creation of Brother I and Superman's failure to act. It was one of the sins that had darkened the universe and helped to bring about the Crisis. When Mary Marvel turns evil, it's obvious, and most of us didn't like it.

Yeah allow me to answer that in your own exact words from your LAST paragraph:

What I call for is heroes that are good guys and villains that are bad guys, however that might play out, and certainly not with the same ideas of what is right and wrong every time. And not all the time. But it seems to me that our modern pantheon of gods, our popular mythology, could serve a much higher purpose than reminding us of how much humanity and real life suck. I'd like to be inspired. I realize that optimism and belief in humanity and idealism and ethics and inspiration are going out of fashion, and haven't been cool in a long time.

But over in the MU, when Tony Stark and half the superheroes of the nation violently and brutally enforce a regime usually perpetrated by the likes of Dr. Doom, Magneto, or Lex Luthor, it's presented as a question of gray morality. Nobody was right, nobody was wrong, that's what that entire event told us. Every book seemed to echo that message. A select few like the Spidey issues and The Confession, said otherwise. But on the whole, Civil War was one gigantic postmodern orgy. And that's what Marvel's been for most of its existence. That's what defines Marvel: gray, postmodern moral systems, and barely sympathetic characters. I live with enough of that in real life. I'd like a bit of inspiration, a bit of hope, a bit of idealism, a bit of heroism, please.

So your saying marvel is bad cause it shows multiple points to an issue. You actually have to see a villains POV as well as a heroes? You don't just get told what to think and how to react by impossibly black and white situations? Sometimes the good guy makes a wrong decission and ends up as the villian of the story? That actually sounds more like a good idea for better more complex and intelligent stories then some grim reminder that we live in the real world.

End of the day, horse blinders wouldn't be large enough for your warped and subjective POV on comics or companies.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, like most meh to flat out horrible events, some pretty good stuff came out of it. DnA Legion. Starman and later, JSA.

I ate a piece of nasty ginseng candy last weekend that left a surprisingly pleasant aftertaste in my mouth. Doesn't mean I liked going through the piece of nasty ginseng candy to get to it.

I was actually trying to ironically indicate that the closest thing Marvel has these days to an "idealistic" superhero is actually a chronically depressed mass murderer which everyone kind of tries to avoid mentioning out of fear that he'll start mass-murdering people again.

Thor. The Young Avengers. Justice. Nova. The list goes on. Marvel's got a lot of truly stand-up heroes who aren't nutjobs.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Someone saying "The Thing" is not a hero?


Meet me on Yancy Street pal! We got some fightin' to do!!!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh yeah, the Thing too. There are a bunch I didn't name, hence "the list goes on."

 

[Kitsune]

And yeah, I read DC for a while, but just couldn't stand it so I narrowed it down to Batman and also some of the Vertigo titles. I even tried getting back into it and reading Countdown, but then Jimmy Olsen had to turn into some huge frickin' lizard thing out of nowhere and totally screw my taste for "Final Crisis".

Probably the giant turtle boy?

Jimmy got powers quite a bit in the silver age comics. Countdown is referencing those old comics for the powers he gets randomly.

 

[Xofenroht]

Yep, wouldn't have liked DC much in the Silver Age either. Wow, so Batman, Green Arrow and Etrigan really ARE the coolest DC characters (ok, I like others too, not gonna lie.)

Oh wait, I know what it is, now. Darn Superman.

 

[Sawyer]

What would happen if Supes joined the 616? Why, this...

Spoiler

...Not in a good way either.

 

[Bubonic]

So it isn't going to happen is it?
It really wouldn't make sense to me, sure there have been some crossovers, but he doesn't seem to fit..
Why would they get rid of superman anyways, sort of one of their biggest money makers ain't he?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

DC wouldn't get rid of him. The reason this came up is because of a recent ruling that gave the Siegel estate the copyright to Superman as he appeared in Action Comics #1. Now there's a chance that the Siegels could get some ownership rights to the modern-day Superman, which would mean they'd be free to sell him to Marvel if they wanted. I doubt they'll win those rights, though.

 

[Bubonic]

Ah ok, because the statement really didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[SeamusHam]

Just so everyone's clear, the copyright issues currently being discussed have nothing to do with Joe Shuster or his family. A federal court awarded the family of Jerry Siegel a claim in the U.S. copyright of Superman.

It can be confusing, I know, but lets at least get the names of the parties involved right.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, whoops. I knew it was one of them.