TENET

[TheVileOne]

Agree somewhat. But I think Tenet was the wrong movie to test this with. Right now, if a Marvel movie opened, and no one showed, you’d have your answer.

One did open. New Mutants

 

[Asr]

I definitely understand this logic Asr, but that's also not necessarily good for the theaters either. Though I guess it's better than nothing?

I did see Tenet in a theater in Orange County, and as far as an indoor space, I felt quite safe there because it was basically empty.

Agreed it's not good for the theaters. And I'm a firm supporter of the theater industry too, I definitely want to see them able to stay in business despite the pandemic. It's too bad the future just isn't looking good for them right now and there's not much that can be done about it with the pandemic continuing and getting worse in some cases.

 

[TheVileOne]

Agreed it's not good for the theaters. And I'm a firm supporter of the theater industry too, I definitely want to see them able to stay in business despite the pandemic. It's too bad the future just isn't looking good for them right now and there's not much that can be done about it with the pandemic continuing and getting worse in some cases.

It frustrates me to no end that we maybe could've lessened the damage for all this but many people are just unwilling to follow the rules. My anxiety is at an all-time high these days.

 

[Evil Twin]

True but it would have to be of Endgame caliber. I don’t think something like Black Widow would fare much better than Tenet.

I think you misconstrue the point.

We don't really know how TENET would have done without the pandemic. Maybe it would have been a big hit in North America. Maybe it would have been a disappointment like BLADE RUNNER 2049. Either way, there's a wide range of reasonable expectations.

A proven commodity like a Marvel Film, aka BLACK WIDOW, where expectations before the pandemic were a minimum opening weekend of $100 million domestic, would have given us something approaching a known benchmark to compare to.

As it is, we don't know how much is the pandemic, and how much is the inherent attraction of TENET. A proven commodity would have given us a much more definitive answer.

 

[Doctor Jones]

 

[Marvolo]

I have one bone to pick. People seem very eager to dunk on Tenet for releasing, saying it was all a mistake, it hurt theaters more than it helped, while further spreading the virus etc.

The problem is....theaters badly wanted to open. In a year where they have lost billions of dollars, with no sign of receiving any government aid, they were craving a big release like Tenet. I mean, indoor dining is open in NJ where I live. One of the hardest hit states which the highest population density. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but that is what has been permitted to happen at the state level. And you have restaurants that are getting in trouble for breaking the 25% capacity rule. I've also seen data that suggests 6 feet apart in a restaurant isn't really doing all that much.

This isn't to imply that a movie theater is so much safer or anything. But I think between assigned seating and knowing ahead of time how many people will be in there before you go in, private screenings, being selective about the showtime you choose, choosing to stay masked the whole time and not eat, etc...there are many more ways to take steps to make going to a movie a much safer experience than eating in a restaurant.

The problem is there is not enough consistency with how we've handled Covid. I can't wrap my ahead around why indoor dining would be okay while a movie theater is simultaneously NOT okay. And I'm not arguing that either is great...but maybe people should focus their ire more towards the state rulings on this stuff as opposed to supply attempting to meet demand when it's been given the greenlight by local government. The industry was desperate and really hurting to try and kickstart something to slow the bleeding. A studio and filmmaker was trying to show solidarity by not caving to pressure to release on VOD. And Tenet has ultimately made something in the ballpark of what Dunkirk did overseas. Given the circumstances that's not bad at all. The problem was with the US. If states hadn't opened up theaters, this would've just been an overseas release. They were moving forward with plans to start it overseas, and then slowly rollout in the US wherever theaters opened, even if it meant the largest markets were closed. But this very well may have helped give theaters a boost overseas.

And assuming Wonder Woman came out instead and performed better, I guarantee you that a lot of these very same people shaming Tenet would be celebrating how "Wonder Woman saved cinema!" Not showing the same level of concern for the safety implications of a movie actually performing WELL. I'm sorry but it's a hyperbolic, overly simplistic narrative that overlooks so many of the various factors at play.

/endrant

One reason is we need to eat to live. We dont need to watch movies to live. People are willing to risk their lives to go out for good or different food, but might be less inclined to do so just to watch a film on a big screen. A film they can eventually watch at home.

Plus eating out is for a lot of people something they did most days prior to Covid. It was a part of their regular routine with friends and family. I think that made people a lot more eager to relaim that routine.

 

[BatLobster]

Guys...

I wasn’t completely wrong...but..

I was kinda wrong.

Did you see it again shauner? I'm still waiting for my second viewing.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Do you think Nolan did write decent characters in this plot driven movie?

 

[Prison Mike]

One reason is we need to eat to live. We dont need to watch movies to live. People are willing to risk their lives to go out for good or different food, but might be less inclined to do so just to watch a film on a big screen. A film they can eventually watch at home.

Plus eating out is for a lot of people something they did most days prior to Covid. It was a part of their regular routine with friends and family. I think that made people a lot more eager to relaim that routine.

Plus it would be way worse for the economy as a whole to lose the restaurant industry than the movie industry. Losing either is bad but I think the restaurant industry employs way more people.

 

[TheVileOne]

Do you think Nolan did write decent characters in this plot driven movie?

I think there are are outlines of good characters. It was just so hard for me to immerse myself into the performances because the film lacked so much clarity and it was so hard to follow and understand due to the bad soundmix.

I definitely thought Elizabeth Debicki had a compelling persona. She's a strong-willed, smart woman who got in over her head with a human reptile. Yearns for her freedom from him, but she doesn't want it at the cost of losing her son. I thought that was compelling.

I thought Pattinson's Neil was also interesting.

Even Aaron Taylor-Johnson when he came in sort of impressed me because it felt like Johnson was actually playing against type for once and showing me he could have some charisma and presence. Something he completely lacked when he played a soldier in Godzilla.

Again it was just hard for me to really connect with all the main performances. Though I think Debicki's Catherine is the one I felt the most.

Kenneth Branagh's villain was awful. Awful performance. Awful character. Awful accent. Stop making Kenneth Branagh play Russian terrorists. Basically the same character from Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit. THEY BOTH EVEN HAD A DEBILITATING ILLNESS!

 

[DKDetective]

Plus it would be way worse for the economy as a whole to lose the restaurant industry than the movie industry. Losing either is bad but I think the restaurant industry employs way more people.

I love movies, but the restaurant industry is just generally speaking more important to society and social interaction. It literally feeds people and a communal meal with friends and family is one of the most important social activities in history for developing bonds of friendship and family. It is the reason why the "meal" has religious importance in so many societies.

 

[Neil McCauley]

I think there are are outlines of good characters. It was just so hard for me to immerse myself into the performances because the film lacked so much clarity and it was so hard to follow and understand due to the bad soundmix.

I definitely thought Elizabeth Debicki had a compelling persona. She's a strong-willed, smart woman who got in over her head with a human reptile. Yearns for her freedom from him, but she doesn't want it at the cost of losing her son. I thought that was compelling.

I thought Pattinson's Neil was also interesting.

Even Aaron Taylor-Johnson when he came in sort of impressed me because it felt like Johnson was actually playing against type for once and showing me he could have some charisma and presence. Something he completely lacked when he played a soldier in Godzilla.

Again it was just hard for me to really connect with all the main performances. Though I think Debicki's Catherine is the one I felt the most.

Kenneth Branagh's villain was awful. Awful performance. Awful character. Awful accent. Stop making Kenneth Branagh play Russian terrorists. Basically the same character from Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit. THEY BOTH EVEN HAD A DEBILITATING ILLNESS!

I do not think they were archetypes or cardboards but standard characters. I liked some and the film, and give it a 7.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Well I gotta say, this might be Nolan's weakest movie. It's by no means bad at all. It's good, it's just all of Nolan's weaknesses have come to a head in this movie.

It's very plot heavy and combined with inversion, instead of sitting back and enjoying everything, I found myself trying to think and understand the rules and everything after they were explained, in which those exposition scenes keep happening. As the plot and rules for inversion becomes more complex, it creates more explanation. More rules become introduced as the movie goes on. I really don't know how Nolan's brain didn't melt when he wrote this. Nolan has always loved his complex structure and ideas and is what makes him a great filmmaker. Memento and The Prestige are masterworks at this. Even Inception does a better job.

I actually followed the first half of the movie pretty well. To which I enjoyed the most. I really enjoyed the plotty spy stuff, proving Nolan can make a great Bond movie and still have fun with it. What I love is that Nolan always knows how to have fun and be playful with his complex material.

It's the second half when they have to steal that plutonium is where it started to lose me a bit.

When ATJ was explaining what they were gonna do in the third act, even with the white board and marker and color coded soldiers, I was honestly lost. The only thing from throwing this off the rails was the fact we know what's at stake so that at least anchored things. However, I wish Nolan could have someone give his stuff a second look and just simplify how he dramatizes these things.

It's a 7/10 for me. I enjoyed this more than Interstellar and Dunkirk, mainly because I love the spy genre, but I wish Nolan could have someone objective and tell him, "Hey, you may get this, but this plays sort of confusing. Can you clean this up a bit while not watering your vision down?

 

[TheVileOne]

Well I gotta say, this might be Nolan's weakest movie. It's by no means bad at all. It's good, it's just all of Nolan's weaknesses have come to a head in this movie.

It's very plot heavy and combined with inversion, instead of sitting back and enjoying everything, I found myself trying to think and understand the rules and everything after they were explained, in which those exposition scenes keep happening. As the plot and rules for inversion becomes more complex, it creates more explanation. More rules become introduced as the movie goes on. I really don't know how Nolan's brain didn't melt when he wrote this. Nolan has always loved his complex structure and ideas and is what makes him a great filmmaker. Memento and The Prestige are masterworks at this. Even Inception does a better job.

I actually followed the first half of the movie pretty well. To which I enjoyed the most. I really enjoyed the plotty spy stuff, proving Nolan can make a great Bond movie and still have fun with it. What I love is that Nolan always knows how to have fun and be playful with his complex material.

It's the second half when they have to steal that plutonium is where it started to lose me a bit.

When ATJ was explaining what they were gonna do in the third act, even with the white board and marker and color coded soldiers, I was honestly lost. The only thing from throwing this off the rails was the fact we know what's at stake so that at least anchored things. However, I wish Nolan could have someone give his stuff a second look and just simplify how he dramatizes these things.

It's a 7/10 for me. I enjoyed this more than Interstellar and Dunkirk, mainly because I love the spy genre, but I wish Nolan could have someone objective and tell him, "Hey, you may get this, but this plays sort of confusing. Can you clean this up a bit while not watering your vision down?

Right now it's easily my least favorite Nolan film.

 

[shauner111]

Did you see it again shauner? I'm still waiting for my second viewing.

 

[MadVillainy]

So I saw this 2 weeks ago.
I was planning a larger write up, but I'll keep it relatively simple

Listen man...I enjoyed the movie. It was thrilling and I liked the actors. If there is any doubt, I think this proved John David Washington is a star. The action sequences, surprise surprise, were really inventive and creative. I liked the combination of sci fi, spy, and even kinda the war genre with the climax. And it really reminded me of the benefits of seeing something in the theater vs at home. Nolan, Denis Villanueve, and Spielberg are for sure guys who make things to be enjoyed in the cinema. The score was also really good.

But i don't know what the hell happened in the movie for most of it. It was purposefully confusing and it kind annoys me when filmmakers do that with movies. You can make deep or thought provoking movies without being confusing. You can make movies that you need multiple views to appreciate fully without being nonsensical. Hell, Nolan did it before with a lot of his filmography. But making a nonsensical narrative just for the sake of it is just a **** move imo. And that's what it feels Nolan did here.

Besides it being nonsensical, I think the Elizabeth Delbicki's (sp) role was pretty tired. We really need to get beyond the "woman is abused and needs to be abused to overcome her abuser to become a stronger character in the end" trope that way too many writers are doing now. Her performance was good, but the storyline is played out. In fact, she played a very similar role in Widows (a movie I really loved).
I also think that some of the dialogue was a bit cliche. Like crappy action movie cliche "You have to buy me dinner first" "I ordered my hot sauce an hour ago" stuff like that.

But the main problem was that the movie was nonsensical. I enjoyed it. I'll buy the blu ray, but I can't defend it really unless you say that it wasn't a great theatrical "experience," the acting was bad, etc. Defending the storyline of this film, sure you can do it and maybe some understood it completetly, but I'm gonna be side-eying people that said this made sense. This isn't like Inception where maybe for some it was confusing. I really can't see how anyone think the narrative of this movie made sense.

I very much agree with @Doctor Jones, and I've been thinking this since Interstellar: Nolan needs someone giving him notes. He has carte blanche and that's hurting his movies. Someone needed to tell him that this didn't make sense, that the "characters" in Dunkirk were terrible, that Interstellar was corny and too long.

EDIT: Also going alongside the point that Nolan needs someone who gives him notes, I'm not trying to be mean, but something might be wrong with Nolan's ears. All his movies since TDK have had sound issues whether it's mumbling, too loud of a score, etc. He needs someone to help with his sound editing

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Nolan probably thinks that's cutting edge in terms of the burden of writing for the female of the species. Mystifying creatures as they are. Don't females like that independence stuff? I think they do. Yes. Nolan's heard they've been peeking out of the kitchen these days. True story.

 

[Doctor Jones]

It'd be nice for Nolan to get his brother Jonah to look at his scripts again. I think Nolan's best work is when Jonah is involved. He wrote the short story to Memento, he co-wrote TDK and The Prestige. He balances him out but enables Nolan do follow his vision.

 

[:eek:]

Nolan: Studios Misunderstood "Tenet" Lesson - Dark Horizons

 

[TheVileOne]

Nolan: Studios Misunderstood "Tenet" Lesson - Dark Horizons

OK....

 

[MadVillainy]

Warner Bros. released Tenet, and I’m thrilled that it has made almost $350 million. But I am worried that the studios are drawing the wrong conclusions from our release – that rather than looking at where the film has worked well and how that can provide them with much needed revenue, they’re looking at where it hasn’t lived up to pre-COVID expectations and will start using that as an excuse to make exhibition take all the losses from the pandemic instead of getting in the game and adapting – or rebuilding our business, in other words.

Nolan's quote from the LA Times article.
I mean he's not wrong for the most part. I didn't think so on the first read of the quote. And maybe I'm reading what he's saying wrong. Who knows with this guy anymore.

But yeah it is a bit weird to see some, not all, pointing to TENET's poor box office showing as a sign people don't wanna go to theaters ever again. Pandemic or not. But if you look at it, the movie did pretty well in the places that are more open. The problem is that most countries aren't open. So there's nothing there that necessarily shows that theater going is forever dead. Just that there aren't enough people willing to go right now due to whatever circumstances (theaters in their area closed, seen as an unnecessary risk, etc.) and that's happening across the board with so many industries and even voting in America. We aren't saying that the restaurant, tourism, and the travel industries are dead because of the huge dip in revenue for those fields. So why do it for the theater industry?

I think whatever changes happen to the theater industry that blockbusters will be fine. It will be all the smaller movies that will be more affected. And those kinda movies have been affected by theater going habits for a decade or two anyway. And along with smaller movies, smaller theaters and theater chains will be too

And he's right about adapting. You always have to do that and this situation is no different. True there are some business that just can't adapt to changing times, but I don't see evidence that the theater industry is one of those industries.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

I think this movie would’ve been in major trouble even without the pandemic. It’s utterly confounding, and without any memorable or good characters. This pandemic, ironically, gives Nolan an excuse to save face. Both critically and commercially.

 

[Prison Mike]

I agree with Nolan about adapting but I think the immediate issue is more that the studios have a bunch of movies, made with a pre-Covid budget, sitting in the can. Sounds to me that Nolan wants the studios to sacrifice these movies with a big budget and risk huge losses so that the theaters get a boost. At the end of the day, the studios should do whatever is best for them and not give in just keep the theaters afloat

 

[TheVileOne]

Releasing new movies in theaters in this type of marketplace, how is it necessarily going to help theaters right now if people aren't going to go there to see them? With major cities and countries going in and out of lockdown.

 

[Schlosser85]

Movies just aren’t going to make money at theaters right now.